ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Rage]

The LCA, in flight:


YouTube - HAL LCA tejas-India's 4.5 generation aircraft

 

[corpus]

India May Use Russian Engines For LCA​

India is seriously considering to use the Russian 33/RD-33MK engines for the homegrown Light Combat Aircraft, as it already used the Indian Air Force [IAF] fleet of MiG-29 aircraft.

A high level Indian military delegation comprising of Defence Production secretary and Chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Ashok Nayak recently visited a Russian ‘Chernyshev’ plant where RD-33/RD-33MK engines for MiG-29K and MiG-35 are being manufactured.

As per an agreement signed between India and Russia, the license production of RD-33 Se.3 engine will happen in India as well as transfer of technology. Officials said that only the first 20 to 40 aircraft will be manufactured with imported of-the-shelf GE-404 engines.

The RD-33 MK engine has been deemed unique since it operates well on any AoA (angle of attack).

“India would benefit if it chooses the RD-33MK engine”, said a senior Indian Air force official, adding that this is because of the unification it will receive because of the common engine logistics it will achieve in the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), MiG-29, MiG-29 MK and possibly the MiG-35. The serial production line for RD-33 class engine is already under construction in India. And after India pays transfer of technology amount for the RD-33 ser. 3 engine, it will not have to pay a double sum for the RD-33 MK engine.

The RD-33 series 3 is an upgraded version of the RD-33 powerful RD-33 turbofan engine with thrust vectoring for MiG family fighters. The engine provides superior maneuverability and enhances the fighter’s performance in close air engagements.

In 2005, Russia signed a $250 million deal with India to modernize engines for the MiG-29 fighters of the Indian Air Force. According to the terms of the deal, HAL will make 120 RD-33 series 3 jet engines at its Koraput plant for the upgrade of MiG-29 fighters. The contract will enable HAL to master the assembly of the RD-33 jet engines and use the experience in the assembly of next generation jet engines.

As for the delays in the development of fully indigenous ‘Kaveri’ engine for HAL’s LCA fighter and other IAF aircraft, it is only forcing India to keep an eye out for a powerful engine for upgrading LCA. The currently installed GE404 doesn’t fulfill the IAF specification and is not powerful enough for Navy LCA variant. The other engines in the market that fit the bill are the American GE414, British-EU EJ200 and Russian RD-33MK who stand a chance to be chosen as the LCA mark 2 engine solution till the indigenous ‘Kaveri’ engine is ready.

what is the source of the news? if true this is really big news.

ok i am new to this forum....... and this is my first post here...

IMHO RD 33 is can never be an option for the tejas.... it is bigger and heavier than F414 and EJ 200.(1055 kg compared tot 1040kg dry). so sources claim that EJ 200 dry weight is as low as 1000kg.

much lesser thrust. even the highly improved RD 33MK has 88KN of thrust compared to 90KN of EJ 200 and 98KN of F414. the F404 already installed produces 85KN.

however the main point is probably fuel consumption..
RD 33MK specific fuel consumption is 75 kg/(kN·h) for dry and 201kg/(kN·h) wet thrust. compared to 82.6 kg/(kN·h) dry thrust and 177.5 kg/(kN·h) for full afterburner on the F414. there is a massive differences in the afterburner fuel consumption between these two. also the EJ 200 is believed to be even mre efficient than the F414.

 

[ppgj]

ok i am new to this forum....... and this is my first post here...

welcome to dfi.

IMHO RD 33 is can never be an option for the tejas.... it is bigger and heavier than F414 and EJ 200.(1055 kg compared tot 1040kg dry). so sources claim that EJ 200 dry weight is as low as 1000kg.

much lesser thrust. even the highly improved RD 33MK has 88KN of thrust compared to 90KN of EJ 200 and 98KN of F414. the F404 already installed produces 85KN.

however the main point is probably fuel consumption..
RD 33MK specific fuel consumption is 75 kg/(kN·h) for dry and 201kg/(kN·h) wet thrust. compared to 82.6 kg/(kN·h) dry thrust and 177.5 kg/(kN·h) for full afterburner on the F414. there is a massive differences in the afterburner fuel consumption between these two. also the EJ 200 is believed to be even mre efficient than the F414.

nothing is clear as of now. at last count, it was still between EJ-2000 & F414.
so one needs to wait. but if the news is correct and they go for RD-33 then it would be 'cos that becomes a common engine for a large number of fleet of IAF like the exixting mig 29s, mig 29ks and the large number of LCAs they are planning. HAL is manufacturing RD 33 series 3 engine. it cuts down on mainainence cost too as you don't need a separate maintainence line for it. but i still think it would be between the euros and yankees.

 

[nitesh]

India To Look for Foreign Partner To Help Develop Naval LCA - Defense News

NEW DELHI - India has decided to look for global partners in developing the naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), as Lockheed Martin failed to get needed security clearances.

Meanwhile, the Indian Navy has ordered six naval versions of the single-engine LCA, giving a boost to the homegrown program. The move is seen as a further commitment by the Navy to the LCA program, said a senior Navy official.

Lockheed Martin ran out of time in getting the necessary clearances from the U.S. government to enter into a contract with India on providing consulting services in the design and development of the naval version of the LCA, said a senior Indian Defence Ministry official. The ministry has no choice but to look for partners in the Western world other than the United States, so that the LCA (naval) program does not suffer further delays, the ministry official added.

Lockheed executives based in India were unavailable for comment.

The Navy only last month ordered six naval-version LCAs and has committed about $30 million for each aircraft.

The naval version of the LCA is a small, lightweight, multirole supersonic fighter jet. It is under development and is required to operate from an aircraft carrier with a "ski-jump" takeoff ramp and arrested recovery system. The first naval prototype is being built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), Bangalore, and is scheduled for integration tests and first flight toward the end of this year.

The naval LCA will be used on a domestically built aircraft carrier, the Air Defence Ship, which is due to enter service with the Navy in 2014.

India is looking for an overseas partner to help in optimizing the landing gear design and making associated changes in the aircraft's structural configuration to bring down the weight of the aircraft by at least 500 kilograms.

As the LCA would be operating from am aircraft carrier, the Defence Ministry will seek the help of an overseas vendor in determining the location and attachment of the arrester hook system on the deck of the ship, and aerodynamic fixes to improve the plane's takeoff and landing performance on the carrier, said a scientist with the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is developing the LCA.

The overseas partner also will advise Indian scientists on the need for an alternative engine with higher thrust. In addition, the foreign partner will advise the ADA on ways to test the arrestor hook system.

The LCA (naval) version has been designed with structural and landing gear modifications to the existing Air Force version to handle larger loads and arrested recovery.

The need for a foreign partner arose during the course of the design and construction of the LCA (naval) version after it was observed that the weight of the naval version compared with the Air Force version is higher than originally planned and budgeted. With the General Electric (GE) F404 jet engine and the aircraft's mass, the performance of aircraft was found to be lower then anticipated.

The Indian Air Force's version of the LCA also is being powered by the GE 404, but the Air Force wants a higher-thrust engine, as there has been an increase in the weight of the aircraft due to increased demands by the user.

E-mail: [email protected].

 

[khatarnak]

Flight Test News


LCA-Tejas completed the 1173 Test Flights. (11-Sep-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1172 Test Flights. (09-Sep-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1171 Test Flights. (08-Sep-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1170 Test Flights. (04-Sep-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1169 Test Flights. (29-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1168 Test Flights. (28-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1166 Test Flights. (22-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1164 Test Flights. (21-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1162 Test Flights. (20-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1160 Test Flights. (19-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1159 Test Flights. (14-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1158 Test Flights. (12-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1156 Test Flights. (08-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1155 Test Flights. (07-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1154 Test Flights. (06-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1153 Test Flights. (05-Aug-09)
LCA-Tejas completed the 1151 Test Flights. (01-Aug-09)

in August, LCA had completed 19 flights... and in september just 4 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what's going on with the testing of tejas? does the ADA and DRDO want it to be inducted in IAF or IN??

 

[SATISH]

in August, LCA had completed 19 flights... and in september just 4 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what's going on with the testing of tejas? does the ADA and DRDO want it to be inducted in IAF or IN??

Most of the test pilot workforce are doing the MMRCA trials thus there is shortage of test pilots. The new batch hasnt arrived yet things will start off as soon as the Radar integration and the Two seater aircraft finishes ground tests.

 

[icecoolben]

The best spin off from LCA tejas programme

The best spin off I see now from the lca tejas programme could be the naval tejas. look at all the carrier borne aircraft in the world arms market today , F-18 sh, su-33, mig-29k, rafale m, then the futuristic f-35 stovl. All these aircrafts are heavy hitters with the exception of some what medium category rafale m,mig-29k. In todays environment, our navy has opted for a sleek, agile force. With three aircraft carriers of dislacements 44,000 tons(ghoskov), 38,000 indigenous carrier, a 48-50,000 indigenous carriers powered by conventional gas turbines. they must be inducted and operational by 2020. How do u propose we fill the decks of all these aircrafts.

I strongly disapprove of the navy buying more mig-29ks. The navy admiral has shown his interest in buying the f-35 which is a better bet still by my view is too costly, I also doubt with the f-35 order book estimated at 3000, how will lockheed find time to make some for our navy. Now consider this possibility ADA comes up with naval tejes by 2014. starts limited series production, commences first delivery by 2015. these aircrafts are operated and tested at both shore facilities and on-board the ins vikramaditya under peer supervision. The first indigenous carrier comes out by 2015-16. the HF naval tejas can occupy the decks of the carrier without causing a void in fleet defence. the next carrier comes out by 2019-20., u would have a fully operational weaponised navy qualified air-craft the naval tejas ready to board the carrier as the prime fleet defence fighter of the Indian navy. we would house production for 60-70 naval fighters from 2015-21.

Now lets look at the economic side of naval tejas. It would cost no more than $29 million as production for both air-force and navy ramp up. look at the other naval fighters in the market today and in the near future mig-29k $38 million, su-33 $ 50 million, f-18 sh $ 55 million, dassalt rafale $ 70 million and F-35 $ 75 million. Some may propose the fgfa naval version? But i rather doubt it. I expect the first land version to be delivered by 2019. Also its already slated to be a 30 ton behemoth. so the architecture of the carrier would have to be extensively re-designed and this may prove expensive even on a new carrier we may build in future.So the naval tejas is a safe bet on the defence ministry's pockets and the navy's ability to further fund other projects as well.

The political spin offs if well orchestrated diplomatically could well be off the charts.

I'll post the rest after the discussion starts.:sporty55:


--
Benith Israel.M

 

[RPK]

Indian Built Fighters On Indian Built Carriers

Link

 

[RPK]

Indian Navy Orders Six Naval Tejas LCA Fighters; Infuses Rs.900 Crore in Programme

Link

 

[A chauhan]

Yes it would be really great b'coz EJ200 can supercruise!!!

 

[Vladimir79]

Yes it would be really great b'coz EJ200 can supercruise!!!

Only if you have two.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Only if you have two.

Depends on the TWR and the aerodynamics.
I doubt if Tejas can super cruise as it has a slightly aerodynamically unstable by design.

 

[Vladimir79]

LCA will never supercruise, especially with combat load. It doesn't matter what engine you place in it.

 

[p2prada]

Depends on the TWR and the aerodynamics.
I doubt if Tejas can super cruise as it has a slightly aerodynamically unstable by design.

LCA cannot supercruise. We will need to redesign the air intakes and the wing. That can be attempted on LCA Mk2. But, it depends on IAF requirements.

 

[icecoolben]

I don't think supercruise was that important. Besides the ej200 engine with a high dry thrust of 60 kn would be worth giving a short at super-cruise. If the gripen can do the same, y can't ours. Both are roughly the same weight class with the gripen slightly lighter than tejas by a few hundred kgs.

 

[A chauhan]

Only if you have two.

Gripen can supercruise with single engine, why can't LCA ? LCA having one of the smartest avionics & radar, is the lightest, smallest yet powerful Aircraft if assembled with EJ200/GE F414G. Both r powerful engines !!!

 

[icecoolben]

GE f414 has less dry thrust and is heavier than ej200. If i had to choose i'll go for ej 200 to achieve super cruise. Aerodynamically unstable design is overcome by static stability. Delta wing designs like euro fighter and gripen could s-cruise. So can the lca.

 

[p2prada]

Gripen can supercruise with single engine, why can't LCA ? LCA having one of the smartest avionics & radar, is the lightest, smallest yet powerful Aircraft if assembled with EJ200/GE F414G. Both r powerful engines !!!

Gripen cannot supercruise with full combat load. Their first try was simply a fluke. Does not mean they can make it work at full load.

The LCA CANNOT supercruise without design changes.

 

[marcos98]

RD-33MK engines for tejas??
India Defence Online reports India is seriously considering to use the Russian 33/RD-33MK engines for the homegrown Light Combat Aircraft, as it already used the Indian Air Force fleet of MiG-29 aircraft.
I have already wrote about this possibility in this blog early. I think, the allegedly selling of an uprated RD-93 engine to China and the current Indian activity around RD-33MK are two related events. Indeed, during some years (more than 5) Russia repeatedly refused to sell the RD- 33 variant with increased thrust to China. One possible reason for this – is the Indian pressure and the agreement between two nations for not allowing China to have more advanced weapons than India. The second one – Russia by self doesn't want China to be too assertive, so the weapons sold for China were always inferior in some degree relative to what Moscow sells to Delhi.

But the technological development is continuing. Sometimes you must run for keeping your place intact. Russia cannot refuse to sell 9 t RD-93 engine for China infinitely (till now it sold only 8.3 t thrust variant). It because the China copy WS-13 (with 7.8 t thrust) is gradually improved and becoming close in its characteristics to the regular RD-93. If Russia refuses now it will lose both the market and the leverage on China. So, the refusing loses its sense. Now the Russian engine manufacturers use Chines money for R&D, so India benefits from this situation too, since China in reality pays for India's advantage. Otherwise the price for new Russian engines, imported to India would be significantly higher.

It's not a secret, that India wants its Tejas light fighter will be more advanced than the Chinese fighter FC-1 (JF-17) of the same weight class. This advantage has not only a military but political and psychological aspect too. One of the most important and persuasive characteristic of a fighter is its engine. According to its thrust, reliability, service life can be made the conclusions about capability of the aircraft to take weapons and fight.

Thus, the current Indian preoccupation in seeking a more powerful engine for its indigenous Tejas project is well understood against the background of aggressive Chinese FC-1 marketing to India's neighbors. A more powerful engine with longer life could help Tejas mk.2 to take-off from the carrier deck, keep more payload and be more maneuverable in dogfight. Now installed GE F-404 engine isn't powerful enough, and the development of the indigenous Kaveri engine is too slow.

Till now two foreign engines were evaluated by India as candidates for Tejas mk.2: the European 90 kN EJ200 (EF-2000) and the American 98 kN GE F-414 (Super-Hornet). Only F-414 gives Tejas a decisive advantage over FC-1's RD-93 in thrust, although being slightly heavier. However, the airframe (inlets) rework is needed too for installation. 90 kN EJ200 has no significant advantage over RD-93 especially if the last is going to be uprated to 9 t = 88.2 kN. Furthermore, since the uprated variant of RD-93 is based on RD-33MK technologies, it must have service life close to 4.000 h. Whilst EJ200 according to some sources has only 2000 h life.

The Chinese were not allowed to produce RD-93, but they bought a repairing facility and technologies for repair. Thus they are unable to make a new RD-93 but theoretically still can try to 'overclock' RD-93 for even more thrust - 90-93 kN – however with expense of reducing life in some degree. In such a way they can have an engine with better than EJ200 tech characteristics for half a price. It can be the critical point for their FC-1 program export success. If they indeed, as was reported, are going to buy up to 500-1000 RD-93 engines with increased power, they are very serious in this aspect.

As my reason says me, the Indians tops could be now with the dilemma:

1) Going for the American 98 kN F-414 . Proved risk to be sanctioned in most unpredictable and hard situation. A totally new engine in IAF and IN inventory. However, could have some sense if F/A-18 wins MMRCA tender. Growing friction with US on nuclear issue makes this choice too risky and so – improbable.
2) 90 kN EJ200 – doesn't give any tech advantage for Tejas against it's main competitor and rival. According to my estimation could be as twice more costly than RD-33MK-based engine if recounted to lifespan. Theoretically can be sanctioned by each participant of this project (GB, Germany, Italy). Significantly reduces the export prospective of Tejas being too costly for potential LCA consumers in 3rd World.
3) RD-33MK variant with the bottom gear placement and a thrust vectoring nozzle (RD-133). Can be upgraded up to 10 t (98 kN) thrust in near future without changing the engine core. The Russian obligation to not sell TVN for China can be obtained, so the advantage of Tejas mk.2 engine (if chosen) can be visible and persuasive for public. The KLIVT all aspect TVN can be especially worth for the carrier based Tejas' variant now actively developed by HAL. The 8.3 t RD-33 ser.3 variant of the engine is already licensioned and ToTed in India, so only a minimal addition will be needed for RD-33MK production in India.

The last developments, the new contract for additional 29 MiG-29K\KUB and the Indian intention for purchasing more 50 Su-30MKI say Delhi has no any 'allergy' to Russian military stuff as some English-speaking writers hint in their publications. Therefore, even deeper cooperation can be predicted between India and Russia in military-industrial sphere, including common development. If RD-33MK chosen as a transitional engine for Tejas LCA (till Kavery ready), it's would be logically to use the Russian expertize for accelerated integration it into the redesigned LCA airframe. In most successful scenario we can reckon even a joint venture for accelerated LCA export for third countries with the Russian engine. This could have the framework of Brahmos program, when one side gives its almost ready project for joint revision and export, but keeping independence in domestic production. Only by this way the Indo-Russian tandem could compete with the aggressive Chinese marketing of its light fighters in 3rd World. For now Russia has no a project which could be an alternative to Chinese FC-1 fighter in light class.

The current development also raise the Russian chances to win MMRCA tender, since the opportunity for engine unification between IAF and the Navy on one already ToTed engine (RD-33) seams to be too attractive for refuse.
Defunct Humanity: RD-33 for Tejas?

 

[icecoolben]

An unbiased engine selection for tejas or not

Lets analyse all the engines available for tejas, including the latest entrant the russian one
ge- f414-
pros: it is a proven engine, clocking thousands of hours of flying and combat. The possibility that f-18 could be selected mmrca. Its commonality with a similar plane the gripen, with the possibility of it getting selected in mmrca.
Cons: its american, sanction prone. No tech transfer so less value for the indian buck. Heavier the current engine small probability that it might create problem with centre of gravity of tejas. No thrust vectoring capability so short take of capability is limited. Built for f-18 sh, which is a plane of old air frame +7g type. Old core and limited growth potential beyond the envisaged 118 kn.
next ej-200, after discussion starts
pls read the post by myself on the mmrca gripen selection, its spin-offs for tejas.