1965 Indo-Pak war: Facts and Fiction

Rudra7678

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Of late, Pakistanis have been posting a scanned frontpage of an Australian news paper about some battle Pakistan "won" against the Indian army in the 1965 war. If I remember correctly, this image is misleading and this was debunked sometimes back. We have to remember how countries manage the perception of their current and past wars.

I am not sure where exactly did I read this, but back in 1960s Pakistan was well ensconced in the western camp (US/UK/Australia). While this battle was still in progress, Pakistanis claimed victory (based on initial gains) and the western press was only too eager to lap it up declare the Pakistani victory on their front pages. Later it became clear that Pakistanis far from being victors, actually lost the battle in question.

Now think about it, in this newspaper scan, we are missing the most important piece of information i.e. location. So about which battle this newspaper was talking about? Was it Asal Uttara, Chawinda? Wouldn't it be actually nice to post the entire article?

Why, for instance, Pakistanis are not postings scans of their own Pakistani newspapers, reporting this victory? The simple answer is, Pakistan did not win this engagement with India and lost it. Initial gains were reported as complete victory, while the battle raged. Pakistanis still do it to this day, hence their sources cannot be trusted.

I have not read much about the Indo-Pak 1965 war, though I am planning on picking up Shiv Kunal Verma's book "The Western Sunrise" but till then, I would love to hear it from members here about their take on this.
 

Kumaoni

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Of late, Pakistanis have been posting a scanned frontpage of an Australian news paper about some battle Pakistan "won" against the Indian army in the 1965 war. If I remember correctly, this image is misleading and this was debunked sometimes back. We have to remember how countries manage the perception of their current and past wars.

I am not sure where exactly did I read this, but back in 1960s Pakistan was well ensconced in the western camp (US/UK/Australia). While this battle was still in progress, Pakistanis claimed victory (based on initial gains) and the western press was only too eager to lap it up declare the Pakistani victory on their front pages. Later it became clear that Pakistanis far from being victors, actually lost the battle in question.

Now think about it, in this newspaper scan, we are missing the most important piece of information i.e. location. So about which battle this newspaper was talking about? Was it Asal Uttara, Chawinda? Wouldn't it be actually nice to post the entire article?

Why, for instance, Pakistanis are not postings scans of their own Pakistani newspapers, reporting this victory? The simple answer is, Pakistan did not win this engagement with India and lost it. Initial gains were reported as complete victory, while the battle raged. Pakistanis still do it to this day, hence their sources cannot be trusted.

I have not read much about the Indo-Pak 1965 war, though I am planning on picking up Shiv Kunal Verma's book "The Western Sunrise" but till then, I would love to hear it from members here about their take on this.
The battle this newspaper is talking about happened on September 13th-14th, 1965. Tactically, it was a stalemate with india gaining two-three villages but failing to meet the pre req gains for the assault on Chawinda. Pakistan suffered more losses in this battle, however.
 

Kumaoni

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View attachment 169316

Of late, Pakistanis have been posting a scanned frontpage of an Australian news paper about some battle Pakistan "won" against the Indian army in the 1965 war. If I remember correctly, this image is misleading and this was debunked sometimes back. We have to remember how countries manage the perception of their current and past wars.

I am not sure where exactly did I read this, but back in 1960s Pakistan was well ensconced in the western camp (US/UK/Australia). While this battle was still in progress, Pakistanis claimed victory (based on initial gains) and the western press was only too eager to lap it up declare the Pakistani victory on their front pages. Later it became clear that Pakistanis far from being victors, actually lost the battle in question.

Now think about it, in this newspaper scan, we are missing the most important piece of information i.e. location. So about which battle this newspaper was talking about? Was it Asal Uttara, Chawinda? Wouldn't it be actually nice to post the entire article?

Why, for instance, Pakistanis are not postings scans of their own Pakistani newspapers, reporting this victory? The simple answer is, Pakistan did not win this engagement with India and lost it. Initial gains were reported as complete victory, while the battle raged. Pakistanis still do it to this day, hence their sources cannot be trusted.

I have not read much about the Indo-Pak 1965 war, though I am planning on picking up Shiv Kunal Verma's book "The Western Sunrise" but till then, I would love to hear it from members here about their take on this.
Here read this:

Chapter 4: Op. Gibraltar/Kashmir Ops (Haji Pir capture, and more 😃 )
Chapter 5: Jammu Operations/ Operation Grandslam
Chapter 6: Lahore Front
Chapter 7: Sialkot front
chapter 8: Eajasthan sector
 

Rudra7678

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Here read this:

Chapter 4: Op. Gibraltar/Kashmir Ops (Haji Pir capture, and more 😃 )
Chapter 5: Jammu Operations/ Operation Grandslam
Chapter 6: Lahore Front
Chapter 7: Sialkot front
chapter 8: Eajasthan sector
Thank you for posting these. I downloaded the chapters recommended and skimmed through these documents with a cursory glance. I am amazed that PAF was able to strafe Indian armoured columns and other formations without any challenge from IAF. I wondering what were the top brass thinking? Was it that IAF was totally unprepared or had its hardware in state of disrepair?
 

cereal killer

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View attachment 169316

Of late, Pakistanis have been posting a scanned frontpage of an Australian news paper about some battle Pakistan "won" against the Indian army in the 1965 war. If I remember correctly, this image is misleading and this was debunked sometimes back. We have to remember how countries manage the perception of their current and past wars.

I am not sure where exactly did I read this, but back in 1960s Pakistan was well ensconced in the western camp (US/UK/Australia). While this battle was still in progress, Pakistanis claimed victory (based on initial gains) and the western press was only too eager to lap it up declare the Pakistani victory on their front pages. Later it became clear that Pakistanis far from being victors, actually lost the battle in question.

Now think about it, in this newspaper scan, we are missing the most important piece of information i.e. location. So about which battle this newspaper was talking about? Was it Asal Uttara, Chawinda? Wouldn't it be actually nice to post the entire article?

Why, for instance, Pakistanis are not postings scans of their own Pakistani newspapers, reporting this victory? The simple answer is, Pakistan did not win this engagement with India and lost it. Initial gains were reported as complete victory, while the battle raged. Pakistanis still do it to this day, hence their sources cannot be trusted.

I have not read much about the Indo-Pak 1965 war, though I am planning on picking up Shiv Kunal Verma's book "The Western Sunrise" but till then, I would love to hear it from members here about their take on this.
I'd say war was a close call... Until we went full on ballistic inside Pakistani Punjab. Blunders were made on both sides. There's no doubt PAF was superior to IAF back then but we still managed to inflict severe losses to PAF.
Pakistan had made decent gains in Chammb sector of Akhnoor before getting halted. Story of a Ahmedi general getting replaced midway is epic.
Indian army's heroic capture of Haji Peer pass.. Which sadly had to be returned in exchange for captured areas along Chammb later on. Kashmir proved absolute deadlock for both sides.
Overall we lost few soldiers & gained more land. It wasn't a convincing victory but we ended up on the better side. Paki morale was busted for sure & then complete annihilation in 1971.
Only regret is we failed after getting so close to Sialkot. Maybe in future via Jammu.
 

Kumaoni

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Thank you for posting these. I downloaded the chapters recommended and skimmed through these documents with a cursory glance. I am amazed that PAF was able to strafe Indian armoured columns and other formations without any challenge from IAF. I wondering what were the top brass thinking? Was it that IAF was totally unprepared or had its hardware in state of disrepair?
The lahore offenisve was entirely rushed, and laucnhed without contacting of the IAF by army brass.
 

Kumaoni

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I'd say war was a close call... Until we went full on ballistic inside Pakistani Punjab. Blunders were made on both sides. There's no doubt PAF was superior to IAF back then but we still managed to inflict severe losses to PAF.
Pakistan had made decent gains in Chammb sector of Akhnoor before getting halted. Story of a Ahmedi general getting replaced midway is epic.
Indian army's heroic capture of Haji Peer pass.. Which sadly had to be returned in exchange for captured areas along Chammb later on. Kashmir proved absolute deadlock for both sides.
Overall we lost few soldiers & gained more land. It wasn't a convincing victory but we ended up on the better side. Paki morale was busted for sure & then complete annihilation in 1971.
Only regret is we failed after getting so close to Sialkot. Maybe in future via Jammu.
They had a 6:1 advantage in armor and artillery in chhamb, nothing impressive. Hell, a single tank swuadron held them for a whole day and even took down 19 tanks as per Agha H amin.
 

Blood+

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They had a 6:1 advantage in armor and artillery in chhamb, nothing impressive. Hell, a single tank swuadron held them for a whole day and even took down 19 tanks as per Agha H amin.
Here's an excerpt from a book from the Osprey Duel series.
1.png
1.png

2.png


Take a look at the highlighted sections. These fucking morons had us literally outnumbered 3 to 1 (their 547 Pattons against our 188 Centurion MkVIIs) and they still got their asses handed to them. Now just imagine what would have happened if we had parity or if the tables were turned, as in we were the ones having a 3 to 1 superiority!! it wouldn't even have been a war but a straight-up one-sided slaughter.
 

Ayushraj

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The lahore offenisve was entirely rushed, and laucnhed without contacting of the IAF by army brass.
PM shastri refused to provide air force for army offensive in lahore.
Lt gen harbaksh singh wanted to next Maharaja ranjit singh by capturing lahore and till last he asked for air support

PM Shastri was wrong in military point of view but he was correct on political point of view.
We need Pakistan and Pakistan is a buffer state and that have 20 crore headless people.
Lahore was only at that time that sustained Punjab by not touching lahore shastri saved Pakistan and ultimately india from these jihadis
 

Blademaster

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PM shastri refused to provide air force for army offensive in lahore.
Lt gen harbaksh singh wanted to next Maharaja ranjit singh by capturing lahore and till last he asked for air support

PM Shastri was wrong in military point of view but he was correct on political point of view.
We need Pakistan and Pakistan is a buffer state and that have 20 crore headless people.
Lahore was only at that time that sustained Punjab by not touching lahore shastri saved Pakistan and ultimately india from these jihadis
Strongly disagree with that statement. We could have broke Pakistan into several states and those states would never challenge India or contest Kashmir.
 

Ayushraj

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Strongly disagree with that statement. We could have broke Pakistan into several states and those states would never challenge India or contest Kashmir.
Pakistan was left with 7 days of ammunition and we were left with 10 days of ammunition so ceasefire was best option.
 

Kumaoni

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Pakistan was left with 7 days of ammunition and we were left with 10 days of ammunition so ceasefire was best option.
Wrong, Pakistan expended 80% of its ammunition, india only 20%

PM shastri refused to provide air force for army offensive in lahore.
Lt gen harbaksh singh wanted to next Maharaja ranjit singh by capturing lahore and till last he asked for air support

PM Shastri was wrong in military point of view but he was correct on political point of view.
We need Pakistan and Pakistan is a buffer state and that have 20 crore headless people.
Lahore was only at that time that sustained Punjab by not touching lahore shastri saved Pakistan and ultimately india from these jihadis
Wrong again. It was Shastri himself who ordered the offensive on Lahore and gave the green light. Where do you get your entirely incorrect information from?
 

Blood+

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Wrong, Pakistan expended 80% of its ammunition, india only 20%
More like 15%. By the way, isn't it the standard American practice to provide 6 weeks' worth of spare and ammo as war wastage reserve to countries receiving military aid from them?? So, going by that, by the end of the war, their expenditure should have been more in the range of 50-55%, don't you think?? Or did the Pakistanis go through their reserves at a more accelerated rate than what was anticipated by the Muricans??
 
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Kumaoni

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More like 15%. By the way, isn't it the standard American practice to provide 6 weeks' worth of spare and ammo as war wastage reserve to countries receiving military aid from them?? So, going by that, by the end of the war, their expenditure should have been more in the range of 50-55%, don't you think?? Or did the Pakistanis go through their reserves at a more accelerated rate than what was anticipated by the Muricans??
Muricans placed an arms embargo on both India and Pakisyan, as did the UK.

However, they quite literally poured their soul into shelling, matter of fact it was their American supplied artillery guns which saved their arses from total collapse as Indian artillery in 65 was entirely of ww2 stock
 

Hari Sud

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1965 War - India and Pak

For accurate and reliable analysis of Pakistani Army failures in 1965 war, it is good to read an independent analysis by Leo Heiman in February 1966 edition of American magazine “Military Review”.


The author gives a first hand account of how Pakistani armoured column failed to make any headway in Khemkaran battle. Also he described the failed capability of Pakistani Punjabi soldiers and generals who did not even know how to load a computerized tank gun. At Sialkot sector the Pakistanis were beaten at every step.

He is not kind to Indian generals in Sialkot sector who failed to exploit advantages upon advantages when Pakistani Army was failing everywhere.
 

Hari Sud

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(Continued from above)

In Addition, also read the account of General Harbaksh Singh - GOCINC of Western Command who lead the battle at Khemkaran as well as Sialkote. He enunciated three or four principles to his staff officers for Khemkaran:

1. No withdrawal
2. Deny the incoming Pakistani tanks roads in the area.
3. Flood the low lying area by cutting the nearby nullaha and direct water to the fields
4. Devise a U-shaped defensive posture where to trap the incoming tanks and destroy them

Pakistanis fell flat in these strategic moves and rest of the job was done by soldiers and commanders. Pakistanis lost 90 tanks, their two commanders of generals rank and hundreds of soldiers, rest surrendered.
 

LETHALFORCE

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US had given pakis Patton tank, the tank was hyped to be an indestructible tank . So many Patton tanks were destroyed that it became a major embarrassment for the americans. My father told me when I was younger that homi Bhabha had created special bombs just to destroy the Patton tanks and it was a major success. Since the destruction of Patton s by India . US has not sent any tanks to pakis.
 

Spindrift

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US had given pakis Patton tank, the tank was hyped to be an indestructible tank . So many Patton tanks were destroyed that it became a major embarrassment for the americans. My father told me when I was younger that homi Bhabha had created special bombs just to destroy the Patton tanks and it was a major success. Since the destruction of Patton s by India . US has not sent any tanks to pakis.
I heard the same story with a slight change it was not bombs, but it was some sort of depleted uranium ammunition.
 

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