WAR 1971

Discussion in 'Military History' started by LETHALFORCE, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. rkhanna

    rkhanna Senior Member Senior Member

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    Actually you are quoting instances and drawing inferences not realizing the Political and Economic costs we paid. for each of the above. When you sell your soul to the devil - he owns it.


    You need to research the fine print of that plant and why only now have Advanced Steel making been introduced by private players.

    Quoting from a PDF i have.

    ". India’s beneªt from Soviet friendship until then had been mainly economic and symbolic—a giant steel mill and other icons of Soviet-style industrialization donated by Khrushchev. Soviet aid to India lagged behind that to Indonesia and Egypt—the main targets of Khrushchev’s arms diplomacy—but he was trying to expand it."

    The Soviet Union’s Partnership with India - Vojtech Mastny

    So after the Mill -1959 to 1962 both India and SU relations with the PRC declined. To expand Soviet help to India Soviet union gave us a line of credit for Non Military supplies and made us buy their weapons (Saudi Arabia anybody?) -

    By 1968 we were firmly in the Soviet Camp by necessity. American's found more traction to their world view in Pakistan while we continue to harp on our Non Aligned Status but in reality were just toeing an Anti-Capital line that ironically was pro-soviet. Russia found an Easy ally (guinea pig) in India. We had just fought a war with China - the Soviets were having their own border issues with china. We Were anti Pakistan (another American vassal) and we had deep ties to the Middle East. Russia used us with remarkable astuteness in all of the above for over 4 decades.

    Post WWII with the NAM India vied for Respect in a Western World Order. The Western world ofcourse refused to give this respect to its former colonies. The Soviets did. So we went to bed with them.

    Yes they helped us with our nuclear reactors, Military and Missle program - But lets not be delusional they did it for themselves. Arming India threw another counter balance into world politics - and because of the above they continue to hold us by the balls and squeeze.


    We did Eventually get an HDW line hook line and sinker with TOT deeper than ANYTHING the soviets ever gave us. Research why we never expanded that production line and why it went to waste. The Soviets actively lobbied to kill any other product that was in active competition to theirs. in 2017 the same old story can be seen with the Arjun, The above quoted book is a very miopic romantic mental masturbation of the actual ground REAL-POLITIC that pervaded throughout the Cold war and into the 2000s

    What the brits did with the Hermes is nothing short of the what the Russians have pulled with the Gorshkov, T-90, Su-30, etc etc today and every weapon system over the past 20-30 years.


    Sorry the absolute opposite. Indian Politicans were not just bribed they were owned. When IG lost the election the head of the KGB had to resign as it was seen as one of the biggest failure of the SU's foriegn policy efforts. the Story is just as grotesque on a state by state basis.

    Sorry but that does not mean anything By 71 we were a Soviet Vassal. The above is simply additional CAPEX to protect an investment. Do you mean to say everytime the Americans funded an insurgency (SFF (India), Anti communists in South America, Asia, Africa) they did it out of love and goodwill?). Hell in Kargil the Israelis provided more support to us than the Russians.

    Suggest reading the chapter on India and IG.

    Another suggested Area of research would be the life and impact of the policies of Krishna Menon. - He was by far the biggest Soviet fanboy in India. Almost every pro soviet paper/opinion every written including well into the 90s is the same mental masturbation from the "Menon School"

    The ONLY reason the India-Soviet ties are considered a success story today was that they was simply no Conflict of Interest between the two countries and hence the ties sustained.

    Ofcourse my loathing of the Soviets/Russians is due to many reasons that i have learned through my personal connections of people involved during that time. that is my Myopia - and is at the opposite end of the spectrum to your view. The reality most likely lies in the middle.
     
  2. rkhanna

    rkhanna Senior Member Senior Member

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    The one fallacy in my viewpoint is this - India was caught between a rock and a hard place. Giving the Famines and Economic isuses we had in the 60s/70s we did not really have a choice to go pro soviet.

    However - lets call a spade a spade and not romanticize something for no reason.
     
  3. prohumanity

    prohumanity Senior Member Senior Member

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    so the fake news promoters are trying to undermine what SU did for India. Not just the steel plants....high tech weaponry..Aryabhatta sattelite technology , INSAT 1 etc. and of course...nuclear technology culminating in Pokhran blasts ...are a few prominent examples...History can not be rewritten.....it was Pakistan who first joined West and then, India was forced to tilt towards SU to protect herself.

    Anyone of you ..old enough to remember the huge boxes of vaccines, oversized white "rural health medical vehicles" and "thick, long ,khaki overcoats for policemen" in 1980s....these all came from SU.
    Lots of subsidized stuff along with open moral support for India..not only in UN but also in other forums are other examples of SU help.
    Those who know history first hand ...know it. Those who get their news from "fake news" and Google...will miss it.
    While your enemy was being loaded with free Sabre jets ,Patton tanks and F16s..it was SU who were empowering to defend India.
     
  4. AnantS

    AnantS Senior Member Senior Member

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    @rkhanna not to forgot, it was SU who gave nukes/missile tech to China. And one may say SU impact was wonderful to India, if they think China had a positive impact on North Korea and Pakistan.

    Not only HDW & Arjun submarines, our indigenous follow on to Marut was killed by substitution from FSU. If FSU gave India steel plant, America helped in ushering green revolution in India. It was french who helped in realizing space dreams. FSU was directly responsible for killing one of our PM in tashkent!! I even read account about Indian soldiers who went to FSU for exercises were often racially abused and resulted in fistfights. The Indian govt fully suppressed such news coming out as it would spoil "bonhomie".
     
  5. prohumanity

    prohumanity Senior Member Senior Member

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    AnandS, Khalistani and Kashmiri terrorists were provided AK 47 and other deadly weapons with money from Kingdom of Saudi and army of Islamic republic of Paki trained them and infilterated in Panjab and J&K thru
    Sialkot area ..where they had lots of training sites.

    This whole ISIS shi*t you are seeing which is hitting the fan all over..is a byproduct of instigating Islamists to turn them into Mujahideens to defeat SU...so now they are reaping the crop of throat cutters and suicide bombers...
    What you sow...so you reap !
    As for racial slurs...in west...everyday Indians hear racial slurs...some are now even getting shot by ignorant bufoons who think Indian Sikhs are Taliban.

    My point is simple...India needs to stay non aligned and keep its strategic autonomy. India is too big and too great to be anyone's vassal.

    I would like to add...General Zi Ul Haq was a darling of London and Washington...and that fundamentalist was the one who not only changed name of Paki to Islamic republic of Paki..he changed lots of Pakis into militant Islamists...of course with the blessings of the same forces in Saudi, London and WashDC.

    Those who get their history from Google are doomed to get mislead.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
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  6. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    We didn't sell our soul to any devil. This is nothing but plain and simple rhetoric.

    You mention private players. Why don't you talk about something that existed when India gained independence? What private players w.r.t. industries did India have immediately after independence? Looking at India today, it feels like we have always been like this.


    I did not follow the Saudi Arabia correlation.

    Yes, by necessity. This has nothing to do with us being guinea pigs. Nobody forced India to go into the Soviet camp. We could have remained aloof while Pakistan was part of SEATO, and we would gotten whacked by PRC, Pakistan, and the US, several times already. Sorry, emotional mumbo-jumbo doesn't make for good statescraft.

    Good point. Precisely what I said in the previous post.

    You cite missile programme and then say that they did it for themselves? How does it benefit the USSR if India develops the capability to target Soviet cities? I suppose this "argument" makes sense to you. I doesn't make any sense to me.

    I would try to figure out who helped India miniaturize India's nuclear reactor for our Arihant before using the HDW as an argument. There is no comparison.

    When cost escalation happened with the Gorshkov, the Russians offered to pay back the money India had paid because the Chinese were also interested in it. India chose to go forward with the escalated cost. The Russians provided everything we asked of them. They even modified an Aviation Cruiser into an Aircraft Carrier in their Severodvinsk Shipyard.

    • What the Russians did with Gorshkov was an improvement.
    • What the British did with Hermes was a degradation.
    Please re-read what you are responding to. You might as well suggest that the Soviets bribed the French, the British, and the Americans to snub India so that India could approach the USSR for submarines. This is sounding more and more like a conspiracy theory.

    Oh, by the way, it was not only with respect to submarines that India was snubbed by the west.

    India was snubbed by the west when India was staring down a famine in 1951. After being snubbed by the US, it was the USSR that sent wheat as aid to India. With the US, it was meant to be a loan. With the USSR, it was a gift. Big difference. Sorry, Mitrokhin may not have told you this, but that does not mean this did not happen.
    Disagree.

    I can understand the USSR had its interest when it supported India during India-Portugal War of 1961 because Portugal was a NATO member and Goa could have been a NATO Naval Base.

    Coming to 1971, how did the USSR benefit from it?
    • Did it get Bangladesh as a vassal? No.
    • Did it get a Naval Base in Bangladesh? No.
    • Did it get lucrative trade deals with Bangladesh? No.

    So, how did they benefit from it? Please give me a cogent explanation with respect to the 1971 war. Please don't tell me about Africa and South America. We are talking about 1971 War, so stick to Bangladesh. How did the USSR benefit by having an independent Bangladesh?
    We also have a lot of America fanboys in India today, and many of them champion globalization, but the fact is, the US, under Trump, will do exactly what Nehru did back in the day, i.e., Import Substitution. Globalization is not always beneficial. It can hurt, and it is hurting the US.

    If the US decides to isolate itself from global trade, which in my opinion it should, people won't have the luxury to indulge in mental acrobatics. They will have to end up in the paddy fields and work hard. Excessive dependence on foreign countries for sustenance is not good. We need to build our own economy that is self-sufficient. When a significant chunk of it is service based and dependent on foreign companies, we have a big problem.
    There was no conflict of interest and there were congruence of interests in a few cases, like I mentioned, the Indo-Portuguese War of 1961. In some cases, it was philanthropic.
    I am not interested in prima facie claims. What I say is available as open source. Personal experiences cannot be corroborated, so I would go into that territory with trepidation.
     
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  7. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    When the US supplied us with wheat aid, they also supplied parthenium with the wheat. This is a type of weed that grows very quickly and is hard to kill. It does a good job of destroying crop fields, apart from causing lung infection in those that breathe the pollen and causes skin irritation too.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. prohumanity

    prohumanity Senior Member Senior Member

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    West was driven by ideology of conflict and unlimited profits for their mega corporations.....Soviet Union was driven by ideology which was "for average people" and their well being.

    . In Soviet block countries, an average citizen was much more informed and educated than in the West because they were not afraid to have an educated population....whereas even today, lots of westerners are ignorant of history, geography and culture..
    because thinking people are hard to control and turn into robotic humans who work..work..work...come home ..drink beer ,eat potato chips and watch "fake ,stupid news" go to work next day.

    Its by design that Westerners esp Americans are kept uneducated in real sense.

    The use of Islamic mujahideens and providing them deadly weaponry and training...did defeat Soviet point of view...but gave birth to a much more dangerous and evil ideology of Islamic terrorism...
     
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  9. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    @prohumanity, the problem with many young Indians today is that they are ignorant of the past. They don't have time to read. Their primary source of information happens to be Tweets and they suffer from short memory.

    In 1951, PLA was constructing a road connecting Tibet with East Turkestan. This road passed through Aksai Chin. In 1951, India was staring down a famine. This is one perspective many Indians fail to capture, and jump to attacking Nehru. India had little choice. Without food, our troops couldn't have done a good job either. Heck, I wish we jumped into the Soviet camp right when we became independent. At least we could have armed ourselves from the get-go, and secured our food supplies as well. We could have easily taken back PoK, GB, and probably Aksai Chin too.

    It is good to be Non-Aligned and independent, but for that, we need to have a strong self sufficient economy that can survive even after being isolated.
     
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  10. AnantS

    AnantS Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes I know... by that time India was firmly in USSR camp(courtesy Gandhi family), we were target of NATO nukes at that time.

    ok but then what are you trying to prove? FSU armed China, NK which in turn armed Pakis. US took revenge for Vietnam in Afghanistan with FSU. I am not denying that the means were questionable and disaster in long run. But then often such decisions are disastrous. Case in point LTTE finally did not bode well for India too.

    No denying. I am just trying to break rose tinted glasses of few via which they view FSU and Russia. FSU did not do India any favors. They extracted their pound of flesh. Just like China gave NK/Pak nuke reactor, nukes, Missile, TEL tech etc, FSU armed Nations whom they thought could become their allies. With India, FSU more or less got NAM/Third world support.

    I think there is no disagreement on that on any count. I will just add more to it. Indians should stop viewing country to country relations as some kind of Jay-Veeru kind of emotional saga(esp Indo -Russi relationship). India should simply be smart & derive maximum benefits from relationship

    Mao was once darling of FSU. And FSU initially funded red revolution movements in India. Which kinda stopped when India went to FSU camp. What does that tell you. Every country has agendas, one's own country need to be street smart.

    Actually Google and other media are going to give you better picture, than what will one get from MIR/Pravda publications or by living in world of Maxim Gorky
     
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  11. rkhanna

    rkhanna Senior Member Senior Member

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    And sadly old indian's tend to get Stockholmed by the past.
     
  12. Khagesh

    Khagesh Senior Member Senior Member

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    :devil:

    This is the best comment. Do you have an idea of how many people have wished to screw the Bear in the long long history of this world?

    Bhai @rkhanna have you ever written on the net under the ID of Satish Chandra?

    Oh BTW congrats all for the real big Indian dick launched today:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40158889

    [​IMG]

    Just remember what can be achieved if Indians are left to their means without 'help' from foreigners.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  13. Flame Thrower

    Flame Thrower Senior Member Senior Member

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    Anyone ever had insurance policy....

    India's Insurance policy was SU in the past and Russia in today's world.

    We have to pay premium to get insurance and this is the hard fact get used to it.

    Folks, you are cursing India for paying premium and SU/Russia for taking it. Did you ever thanked SU/Russia once for saving us. I bet, no NATO country would have come to save us like SU did.

    Did it help India (yes, it did many times). Weapons purchase was our Insurance with SU.

    There are always lunatics who say about jumping out of Russian help, if there is anything against us in UNSC only Russia would come to Veto it.

    Now coming SU 30 mki, mind it, till the deliveries of SU 35s to China, this plane ruled South Asia. Can you name one NATO country that would come forward to use Russian hardware....

    Some still argue that French is our best friend, do you think that they would allow us to arm Brahmos on Rafale!!??(we can convince Russia by buying more T 90s, another frigade or couple of nuclear reactors)

    They gave their nuclear submarine (sure for money) can you mention any country willing to do so!!??

    Coming to Vikramadiya, how many remember that we didn't want it straight away like Russia offered, we asked for numerous modifications one of them is changing its air defence system.(but all we remember is cost hike and delays).

    One thing I appreciate Nehru's vision is Non Alignment Movement. Yes, we didn't got any perks when we are in need. But today we are not bound to neither Communist nor Capitalist influence. If we had joined SU block, I am sorry to say this but we wouldn't had been like this in geography & economy. Before anyone comment on this can you name one socialist country that survived cold war wrath and yet in a good shape (no, don't go to China; they were practically in bed with NATO after land disputes with Soviet Union)

    What I said above here is not even the tip of the iceberg.
     
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  14. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    RIP, Sir ..

    Lieutenant General Jacob Farj Rafael "J. F. R." Jacob, PVSM (1924 – 13 January 2016) was a Jewish Indian Army officer. He was best known for the role he played in India's victory in the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971 and the Liberation of Bangladesh. Jacob, then a Major General, served as the Chief of Staff of the Indian Army's Eastern Command during the war. During his 36-year career in the army, he also fought in World War II and the Indo-Pakistan War of 1965. He later served as the Governor of the Indian states of Goa and Punjab.

    On 13 January 2016 around 8.30 am, Jacob died at New Delhi's Army Research & Referral Hospital due to pneumonia. He was laid to rest the following day in Delhi's Jewish cemetery on Humayun Road. His funeral was attended by India's Defence Minister, Information Minister, and foreign delegations.

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    Published on Aug 14, 2017

    This is the story of the 1971 war. The one war in which India decisively won a thumping victory against its arch rival Pakistan. A war in which India destroyed half of Pakistans’s navy, a third of its Air Force and a fourth of its army effectively breaking it to half of its former size and reshaping the global map giving birth to the new nation of Bangladesh. Although every wing of our services played its part and the contribution of every patriot is lauded, when push came to shove, it fell upon the able shoulders of one general, to turn the fate of this war. To turn what was to be a garden variety cease fire into the first and only public surrender in the history of the world. His name was Jacob. He had one meeting with his Pakistani counterpart General Niazi. This film gives us an insight into what happened in that meeting that changed the world forever.

    Starring: Milind Soman & Yashpal Sharma
    Written & Directed by: Manu Chobe
     
  15. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    Very good performances by both Soman and Sharma. Soman captures the calm facade and steely determination of Gen. Jacob very well. Sharma effortlessly slips into the role of Niazi- down to the mannerisms, the accent and the Punjabi vernacular..

    Shat shat naman to Gen. Jacob. In the annals of Indian military history, this is one name that will never be forgotten.
    Gen. Jacob truly lived the adage- Old soldiers never die, they just fade away.
     
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  16. F-14B

    F-14B #iamPUROHIT Senior Member

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    I liked the moment when he (milind soman) asks the paki "how is your boss Tikka Khan???"
     
  17. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    This is our own T-55 knocked out but recaptured during 1971 war, All other picture in the post are mostly from eastern front during 1971 war ..
     
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  18. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Workhorses of Indian Army in one line, Centruain 7 with 20 pounder gun, T-55M with 105mm L7A3 gun, Vijaynanta with 105mm L7A3 gun ..
     
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  19. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Trophy, Most of the other pictures of PT-76 in action and which are not seen before or posted on DFI ..
     
  20. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    106mm RCL during 1971 War ..
     
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