Turkish defense industry news updates

[kunal1123]

Turkey still aiming for TFX maiden flight in 2023



February 12, 2017

In his speech to the İstanbul Düşünce Vakfı (Istanbul Thought Foundation), Turkish Aerospace Industries’ (TAI) General Manager, Temil Kotil, stated that the company was still aiming to fly the TFX, Turkey’s next-generation fighter platform, in 2023 (i.e. to commemorate the establishment of the Turkish Republic).


As per Kokpit Aero, Kotil also elaborated on TAI’s recent GBP £100 million-plus deal with BAE Systems, stating that BAE will provide “400 man/years” of engineering consulting and support work to TAI.

The current contract is centered on designing the TFX, it is expected to conclude in four years, after which another four-year contract could be awarded to undertake TFX development.


In addition, the TFX will eventually benefit from a domestically designed and produced turbofan engine, which Kotil claims should be ready in 10 years. However, initial TFX units will be equipped with a foreign turbofan engine, potentially a Rolls-Royce system

Kotil reiterated that Turkey’s goal of exporting the TFX to other market


TAI is evidently ambitious and optimistic about the TFX. To its credit, the program is being driven by local requirements (i.e. to gradually supplant the Turkish Air Force’s F-16s) and a concerted drive to position Turkey into a major defence and aerospace exporter. The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) and TAI have been in touch with prospective third-parties, such as Pakistan, regarding the TFX.


The statements and early engagement indicate that Turkey is seeking support in building scale for the TFX. It is possible that upon the conclusion of the initial design phase, Turkey may invite third-parties to co-invest in TFX development, which will help distribute the research and development overhead.


However, Turkey current industry markets – e.g. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Kazakhstan (among others) – are generally cost-sensitive. Granted, Saudi Arabia and Kazakhstan have more spending power, but liberal expenditure may be a thing of the past considering the mounting austerity pressures, at least on Riyadh (and the Arab Gulf market in general).


Some analysts anticipate that the cumulative cost of the TFX program – i.e. design, development and production – could amount to USD $70 billion in work. This (based on 250 aircraft) would put the TFX’s all-inclusive (flyaway plus long-term maintenance) cost at $280 million a unit, which is plausible for a next-generation Western technology-based fighter platform.


Additional TFX orders may help lower the unit price, but the biggest cost savings would likely occur with the Turkish industry scaling the development overhead of subsystems (e.g. radars) across many domestic and export applications, such as legacy fighter upgrades. Aselsan is developing new electronics suites – including an active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar and next-generation electronic warfare (EW) kit – for the Turkish Air Force’s F-16s. Scaling the research and development work for transceiver modules (TRM) across radars for F-16s, surface warship radars, land-based air defence radars, and export solutions would help bring a relatively affordable electronics suite for the TFX.


While contingent on the technical ability of co-purchasing partners, partial airframe and subsystem production in partner states may help reduce the costs further (with cheaper currency and labour). For example, TAI had contracted Anka drone-related work to Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 2013 and it had spoken to the Pakistani Ministry of Defence Production about TFX-related activities in 2016.


Overall, the TFX would still be a costly fighter, but it may be a relatively manageable one. Granted, this will depend on Turkey’s ability to manage costs, especially during development (which is prone to cost overruns and technical complications). Fortunately, the dearth of directly analogous Western platforms should provide the TFX an addressable market. Turkey’s efforts to cultivate defence industry ties in places such as Saudi Arabia will also help in guiding interest towards the TFX, especially if Ankara leverages investment and offsets in those countries.

 

[IndianHawk]

This (based on 250 aircraft) would put the TFX’s all-inclusive (flyaway plus long-term maintenance) cost at $280 million a unit

No body is going to buy anything Turkish which costs 280milion $.

By 2025 America will be supplying F35 for 150 million a pop. Gulf countries would lap up that.

Pakistan can only buy a 250 mil plan if it sells all its airforce

What absurd dreams.

 

[hardip]

Turkish....
Arial Technology..
Not gonna be..
Superior... At any cost...


Yes..there is.. Only..and final Customer will Be Pakistn.. as always...

 

[kunal1123]

https://www.tai.com.tr/tr/haber/milli-muharip-ucak-proje-yonetim-ofisi-acildi

google translate :

National Combat Flight Program Management Office Opened
February 17, 2016 In the National Combat Aircraft (MMU) Project, which is conducted by the Undersecretariat of Defense Industry and targeted to develop the aircraft to be the main combat element of the Air Force Command instead of F-16 in the future, ODTÜ Teknokent, TAI-Türk Hava ve Uzay Sanayii A.Ş. The opening of the MMU Program Management Office in the Engineering Building, Air Force Commander Hv.Org. Abidin Ünal, Rector of METU Prof.Dr. Ahmet Acar, Undersecretary of Defense Industry Prof.Dr. İsmail Demir and General Director of TSKGV Orhan Akbaş on 17 February 2016.

TAI was appointed as the main contractor for the preliminary design phase of the National Combat Aircraft Development Project in the direction of the decision of the SSİK dated April 2015. In this context, studies on the first phase activities including the preliminary designing of "Foreign Cooperation Company" ("Foreign Cooperation Company" Contract negotiations for the Preliminary Design Phase of the .MMU Development Project are ongoing.

 

[gadeshi]

Great Britain joins TAI F-X project:
http://aviationweek.com/combat-airc...governments-green-light-tf-x-development-work

 

[IndianHawk]

Great Britain joins TAI F-X project:
http://aviationweek.com/combat-airc...governments-green-light-tf-x-development-work

Ah two loosers together. This will be fun to watch.:biggrin2:

 

[Pandora]

Give me a chance ,I will always make sure these turks lick their wounds for lifetime.India got a soft diplomacy.Hurt these turks where it matter .Let supply ,defence equipments to cyprus.Carry out regular agressive exercise with greece.And bully them that if they supply defence equipments to pakistan,the matter will be equally reciprocates.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Ah two loosers together. This will be fun to watch.:biggrin2:

I don't count GB as a looser. They have good experience in developing fighter aircraft. Infact GB joining TFX fighter project has increased the success chances by many folds.

I bet lot of systems from EF will go/get upgraded due to this project. If they can pull a low end 5th gen less than 100 Mil. It will serve as secondary 5th gen for many European nations.

If they can drag Germany or France then it will become a huge success.

I hope to see TFX entering the active service post 2040.

 

[Kay]

We should arm the Kurds...we don't have anything to gain from good relations with Turkey as it is becoming more and more radicalized. The Brits are selling themselves out in desperation.

 

[IndianHawk]

I don't count GB as a looser. They have good experience in developing fighter aircraft. Infact GB joining TFX fighter project has increased the success chances by many folds.

I bet lot of systems from EF will go/get upgraded due to this project. If they can pull a low end 5th gen less than 100 Mil. It will serve as secondary 5th gen for many European nations.

If they can drag Germany or France then it will become a huge success.

I hope to see TFX entering the active service post 2040.

Eurofighter itself is an struggling product. It's airframe developed cracks and it didn't find many takers. Rafeal is much polished than eurofighter could ever be.

Neither Germany nor France are going to strengthen Turkey while Erdogan exercises dictatorship.

Cost is another factor. They can't build anything 4th gen under 100 mill. A plane with stealth , 5th gen features , developed in Europe is going to cost 250mil + .

Turkey and GB both depend on US for there major defense systems. And US won't support this new toy development.

 

[IndianHawk]

We should arm the Kurds...we don't have anything to gain from good relations with Turkey as it is becoming more and more radicalized. The Brits are selling themselves out in desperation.

Although it's a different matter. But an independent Kurdistan is the need of the hour. That can be an arc of stability in the mess of middle East. Plus cutting Turkey to size is icing on the cake.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Eurofighter itself is an struggling product. It's airframe developed cracks and it didn't find many takers. Rafeal is much polished than eurofighter could ever be.

Neither Germany nor France are going to strengthen Turkey while Erdogan exercises dictatorship.

Cost is another factor. They can't build anything 4th gen under 100 mill. A plane with stealth , 5th gen features , developed in Europe is going to cost 250mil + .

Turkey and GB both depend on US for there major defense systems. And US won't support this new toy development.

1) They might go for low end 5th gen, and I mean lo shaping and using eft engine (directly or an updated one). High end might need more complex sensors and cost which both cant afford.

2) If I remember the number correctly there are over 700 typhoons being operated by various forces, if we consider half of them will get mid life upgrades starting 2030 this would be the best time to start on TFX and Brit can cash on these upgrades. Thus we get sensors (updated typhoon sensors) for TFX.

France is working on neuron, but If they invest a bit more then they could get another fifth gen (this reminds me of sepecat fighter project)

Germany can be brought on to the project using same logic.

Now coming to Erdogan, he won't be in power post 2030. But Britain & Turkey will be there and they would need fifth gen fighters.

If I am not wrong, I'd see France or Germany (if not both) joining the TFX program by 2022.

Coming to the cost, EF was assembled in 4 different countries, if they are to be assembled in one country the cost would have been lesser.


If new plane is to be built in Turkey with lots of automation coming production cost would go.

When coming to development costs, the sensors costs wont be much as it is only upgrading the current sensors and shared with atleast 350 EFTs.

Same goes for engine and may be ram too...

Weapons: TFX already has testwd weapons like Meteor for A2A, will buy for Sidewinder or use typhoon and rafale waleapons for TFX.

Developing an Airframe will get huge chunk of development costs.

So, I strongly believe that 5th gen fighter within 100 mil is quite possible.

 

[kunal1123]

"worthy of praise by allies". Turks being sensitive..........................???????????????????????

 

[airtel]

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/19980/Germany_Freezes_Arms_Sales_To_Turkey#.WXYvYoQrKUk
turkey tasting some sanctions...
it's good they need to be taught lesson .

So turkey lost their 5th fighter, atlay tank and most of the other western European technologies.


Now they will buy JF 17 blunder from China.

 

[Tshering22]

And they are consulting the British who made only partially made a 4th gen eurofighter structure of which is already fatigued.

What could possibly go wrong:biggrin2:

At least they are trying.

BTW their 5th gen programme is aimed at a much earlier launch in 2023, than our AMCA which will heavens know when, launch.

So we need to admire them rather than criticise them.

 

[airtel]

At least they are trying.

BTW their 5th gen programme is aimed at a much earlier launch in 2023, than our AMCA which will heavens know when, launch.

So we need to admire them rather than criticise them.

Eurofighter typhoon was joint project of many European countries with significant contributions from Germany.

Without permission of Germany , turkey can not use EJ200 engines in their jet planes.

They dont have the technical ability so forget about launching of Turkish 5th generation fighter in 2023.... They can do only licence production of Chinese or Russian jets with Turkish name.

Their atlay tanks and most of the navy are dependent on German MTU engines and Rheinmetall guns....now they will have to use less capable Ukrainian engines like China


Even at present they are using German leopard tanks. :biggrin2: :biggrin2:

 

[IndianHawk]

At least they are trying.

BTW their 5th gen programme is aimed at a much earlier launch in 2023, than our AMCA which will heavens know when, launch.

So we need to admire them rather than criticise them.

They will build a plane all right.
Will it be a 5th gen plane???

Turkey has no technology worth mentioning for indegenious aerospace development. It doesn't even have enough money. Much advanced and much experienced and much richer Japan , Korea are struggling. Even Russia has troubles with PAKFA. India has tremendous challenges despite developing LCA which is 4++ gen by any parameter.

Turks are simply way over their head. Their economy barely 900 billion $$ can't afford development budget for a 5 th gen plane.

Even France can't afford it alone despite being almost 3 times bigger economy than turkey that is why it is going with Germany for 5th gen.

 

[Kshithij]

I don't count GB as a looser. They have good experience in developing fighter aircraft. Infact GB joining TFX fighter project has increased the success chances by many folds.

I bet lot of systems from EF will go/get upgraded due to this project. If they can pull a low end 5th gen less than 100 Mil. It will serve as secondary 5th gen for many European nations.

If they can drag Germany or France then it will become a huge success.

I hope to see TFX entering the active service post 2040.

Turkey doesn't have any expertise even in assembling a plane, forget making one. India made assembly of plane since MiG21 and had made Tejas first flight in 2001 itself. India also writes its own avionics and fly by wire code, in addition to engine FADEC.

Turkey first has to assemble a plane, gain expertise on precision assembly, then design a plane, test its aerodynamic performance of which it has no experience (in terms of aerodynamics), gain experience on testing, make parts and alloys for plane, build AESA radars, IRST, Advanced seekers (not simple IR seekers), EW system, engines, precision manufacturing etc.

Since Turkey has no radar capabilities AESA will take a long time. The making of parts, codes, engine FADEC, fly by wire will take 15 years. Making of engines will be another 25 years as Turkey doesn't even make basic engiine parts like India did. India started the engine project in 1990 itself and yet is just about to complete it. China was no better with over 15 years of development.

Turkey is simply starting from scratch with UK BAE consultancy. Consultancy doesn't imply any actual help but simple answers to questions. No country would give away technology of a plane for any cost. If that was the cse, India would have bought the technology off the shelf.

Turkey will make a low end 2nd generation 2.5 generation fighter with no decent systems in 2023.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Turkey doesn't have any expertise even in assembling a plane, forget making one. India made assembly of plane since MiG21 and had made Tejas first flight in 2001 itself. India also writes its own avionics and fly by wire code, in addition to engine FADEC.

Turkey first has to assemble a plane, gain expertise on precision assembly, then design a plane, test its aerodynamic performance of which it has no experience (in terms of aerodynamics), gain experience on testing, make parts and alloys for plane, build AESA radars, IRST, Advanced seekers (not simple IR seekers), EW system, engines, precision manufacturing etc.

Since Turkey has no radar capabilities AESA will take a long time. The making of parts, codes, engine FADEC, fly by wire will take 15 years. Making of engines will be another 25 years as Turkey doesn't even make basic engiine parts like India did. India started the engine project in 1990 itself and yet is just about to complete it. China was no better with over 15 years of development.

Turkey is simply starting from scratch with UK BAE consultancy. Consultancy doesn't imply any actual help but simple answers to questions. No country would give away technology of a plane for any cost. If that was the cse, India would have bought the technology off the shelf.

Turkey will make a low end 2nd generation 2.5 generation fighter with no decent systems in 2023.

The Turks had their own assembly line for F-16 C/D in the 1990s. They are also part of the F-35 industrial program so every F-35 has turkish components (see https://www.f35.com/global/participation/turkey-industrial-participation). They are obviously not starting from scratch !

 

[Kshithij]

The Turks had their own assembly line for F-16 C/D in the 1990s. They are also part of the F-35 industrial program so every F-35 has turkish components (see https://www.f35.com/global/participation/turkey-industrial-participation). They are obviously not starting from scratch !

Turkey did assemble F16 but their manufacturing was 0. India manufactured MiG21 in India, at least some parts of it. Turkey manufactured useless parts of F35 like fuselage, avionics display etc which are not technology intensive. Turkey doesn't know to write avionics as of yet. USA rarely ever shares technology and didn't share with Turkey either.

Definitely, I made a mistake by saying Turkey is starting from scratch. But, even then, Turkey's technology is not advanced enough to make a flying prototype in 2023.