Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine

[p2prada]

40 MKIs are earmarked for SFC.

No. No IAF aircraft except for Mirage-2000 have been earmarked for nuclear strike mission. All that you see in the media is false.

After IAF rejected SFC's request for any new aircraft to be inducted by them, the SFC has specifically asked for one Rafale squadron to be earmarked for nuke delivery. And IAF will provide that based on their needs, that is if it is not conducive to let a squadron go during wartime, they won't allow it. This is the situation right now.

SFC never asked for MKI. All they have done is ask for 40 new aircraft. It was just a coincidence that the 42 MKI deal was being negotiated then, so that's where the rumors are from. IAF and MoD have made it clear that the 42 order deal is meant for IAF only.

40 MKIs are undergoing upgrades to carry Brahmos ALCM. Coincidence? I think not. Officially no one would disclose, but there are ample hints from multiple sources that SFC air wing is migrating from Mirage based gravity nukes to MKI based nuke tipped Brahmos.

Brahmos cannot carry a nuclear war head of the same size as a gravity dropped bomb. It won't be a strategic weapon, it will be a tactical weapon, for taking out a concentrated land formation or a CBG.

Under the 'missile autonomy mission' 2 new standoff PGMs are being developed, which would be operational by 2020.
> One is a medium range PGM with mmW seeker (similar to Brimstone/PAASM/9A4172 Vikhr/Nimrod in role)
> Another is a long range loitering PGM with Ku Band+EO seeker based on the PTAE-7 engine (similar to MBDA-SPEAR or SPICE-250 in role)

Once these are developed and operational, along with CBU-105, Tejas can have much teeth for CAS, but not before that. MkII FOC seems feasible.

Any aircraft can perform this role with the above weapons. It really depends on what CAS is considered to be, and within the military itself there are various factions. Some support the cheaper A-10s while some support expensive F-35 type, while some are in between.

This option is much more expensive than the A-10 option.

Overall LCA isn't designed for low altitude flight. It is easier by fitting Jaguar with the Aim-120 and call it an air superiority aircraft.

 

[arnabmit]

If CAS is the topic, neither Rafale nor Tejas can be called CAS crafts.

CAS craft needs:
> Turbofans preferred over turbojets for high fuel economy
> Greater than 4hr loiter time
> Capable 30mm autocannon for ground strafing
> Ti tub cockpits & engine covers to protect against upto 50BMG fire
> Maneuverability at slow speeds, as low as 160kmph
> Array of Rockets, PGMs, LGBs, Cluster Munitions.
> Redundant control surfaces & landing gear
> ECM, chaff, flares etc. against MANPADS

From the Indian inventory, Hawk has much higher probability of taking up CAS role, IMO.

 

[p2prada]

If CAS is the topic, neither Rafale nor Tejas can be called CAS crafts.

CAS craft needs:
> Turbofans preferred over turbojets for high fuel economy
> Greater than 4hr loiter time
> Capable 30mm autocannon for ground strafing
> Ti tub cockpits & engine covers to protect against upto 50BMG fire
> Maneuverability at slow speeds, as low as 160kmph
> Array of Rockets, PGMs, LGBs, Cluster Munitions.
> Redundant control surfaces & landing gear
> ECM, chaff, flares etc. against MANPADS

From the Indian inventory, Hawk has much higher probability of taking up CAS role, IMO.

Rafale is better tuned to fly at low altitude and at slower speeds and has additional sensors. These are the only major advantages if we consider even LCA will get all the necessary electronics and weapons. The bigger problem is there is no known roadmap for DIRCM for LCA. Once that issue is sorted out, LCA will be more survivable at low altitudes.

LCA's limited weapons loads is what hurts its strike capabilities.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

^^^^^
if the STR and ITR are ok for LCA then there is nothing as Rafale is better it ir just a perception and marketing ploy

What is the weapons load of

Jaguar
Mirage
Mig27

compare that to payload of LCA

then tell how poorly it compares

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

^^^^^
if the STR and ITR are ok for LCA then there is nothing as Rafale is better it ir just a perception and marketing ploy

What is the weapons load of

Jaguar
Mirage
Mig27

compare that to payload of LCA

then tell how poorly it compares

dont give bullshit arguments

You are literally screaming "BAN ME" to Mods by the use of such language. Occasionally its acceptable, you are doing it regularly.
And its YOU who is posting bullshit arguments .
Tejas is a light combat aircraft. MiG27 and Jaguar are full fledged Ground Attack and Strike Aircraft. Even a Kid knows the difference.
I suggest you use something called "Google" to know the difference.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

You are literally screaming "BAN ME" to Mods by the use of such language. Occasionally its acceptable, you are doing it regularly.
And its YOU who is posting bullshit arguments .
Tejas is a light combat aircraft. MiG27 and Jaguar are full fledged Ground Attack and Strike Aircraft. Even a Kid knows the difference.
I suggest you use something called "Google" to know the difference.

the LCA tejas conceptualised as LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT in 1985, but over the years the changes in ASQR by IAF has ensured that it becomes a multi role aircraft

so googling would only throw up what such things while applying ones mind and understanding what is written on google etc is more important


Ques to you
1.
if mirage was a strike Aircraft ?
why did IAF had to overnight get it modified during kargil to enable it to make strikes?
why was the IAF and Mirage not ready in that role ?

where was the strike Jaguar during Kargil ?
where was the Mig 27 striker suring kargil?

2.
as some members had pointed out LCA is not good at low speed, design for CAS / Strike roles due to design, wing loading ?

Tell me what is the design of Mirage, rafale - same delta as LCA ?
What is wing loading of Mirage Rafale - high or low same as LCA ?

what are AoA for mirage and that for LCA ?

3.
why were Leh trials included in MMRCA?
why was Tejas put through Leh trials just like MMRCA?

'coz
JAguar couldnt takeoff from Leh airport during kagil
even Mirage cannot takeoff from Leh even today
these aircraft havent ever taken off from Leh

go find these on google

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

the LCA tejas conceptualised as LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT in 1985, but over the years the changes in ASQR by IAF has ensured that it becomes a multi role aircraft

so googling would only throw up what such things while applying ones mind and understanding what is written on google etc is more important


Ques to you
1.
if mirage was a strike Aircraft ?
why did IAF had to overnight get it modified during kargil to enable it to make strikes?
why was the IAF and Mirage not ready in that role ?

where was the strike Jaguar during Kargil ?
where was the Mig 27 striker suring kargil?

2.
as some members had pointed out LCA is not good at low speed, design for CAS / Strike roles due to design, wing loading ?

Tell me what is the design of Mirage, rafale - same delta as LCA ?
What is wing loading of Mirage Rafale - high or low same as LCA ?

what are AoA for mirage and that for LCA ?

3.
why were Leh trials included in MMRCA?
why was Tejas put through Leh trials just like MMRCA?

'coz
JAguar couldnt takeoff from Leh airport during kagil
even Mirage cannot takeoff from Leh even today
these aircraft havent ever taken off from Leh

go find these on google

You dont know the meaning of "Multirole". It doesnt mean that the fighter will be able to perform all the tasks satisfactorily, It means that it would be able to perform more than a single one. MiG29K is known as multirole aircraft.But, it was made for A2A , not A2G. So, this means that it can perform A2G , but not in a best way. Same applies to LCA.

1. Who the hell told you Mirage was a Strike Aircraft ? Mirage 2000 bought by IAF had little A2G capabilities. So, they had to be modified to do the task. (easily available at Wiki)
Jaguars did perform strike missions (wiki) . MiG27 also performed , but as Kargil is at very high altitude, it played a limited role.

2. Wow. Just because they are delta-winged, they have same design as LCA?
There is a massive , massive difference between CAS and Strike. (Google it)

3. What's your logic here? Just because They werent able to fly from Leh, they arent good at Strike missions?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

You dont know the meaning of "Multirole". It doesnt mean that the fighter will be able to perform all the tasks satisfactorily, It means that it would be able to perform more than a single one. MiG29K is known as multirole aircraft.But, it was made for A2A , not A2G. So, this means that it can perform A2G , but not in a best way. Same applies to LCA.

1. Who the hell told you Mirage was a Strike Aircraft ? Mirage 2000 bought by IAF had little A2G capabilities. So, they had to be modified to do the task. (easily available at Wiki)
Jaguars did perform strike missions (wiki) . MiG27 also performed , but as Kargil is at very high altitude, it played a limited role.

2. Wow. Just because they are delta-winged, they have same design as LCA?
There is a massive , massive difference between CAS and Strike. (Google it)

3. What's your logic here? Just because They werent able to fly from Leh, they arent good at Strike missions?

the point here is in 1962 it was later analysed that use of IAF could have helped us in loosing the war

now where was this war in 1962 ?

In tibet , ladakh, north northeast of Kargil,AP

still after these analysis and lessons brought to light

our esteemed IAF was not prepared for the same battlefield in 1999 (kargil)

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

You dont know the meaning of "Multirole". It doesnt mean that the fighter will be able to perform all the tasks satisfactorily, It means that it would be able to perform more than a single one. MiG29K is known as multirole aircraft.But, it was made for A2A , not A2G. So, this means that it can perform A2G , but not in a best way. Same applies to LCA.

1. Who the hell told you Mirage was a Strike Aircraft ? Mirage 2000 bought by IAF had little A2G capabilities. So, they had to be modified to do the task. (easily available at Wiki)
Jaguars did perform strike missions (wiki) . MiG27 also performed , but as Kargil is at very high altitude, it played a limited role.

pl tell these to Dasault expert on this forum

who finds all dasault (mirage / rafale ) as the panacea for ill os IAF

and LCA as the root cause of all Ills of IAF

who has time and again said that mirage are better than LCA and never explaind how or done specification wise comparision

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

the point here is in 1962 it was later analysed that use of IAF could have helped us in loosing the war

now where was this war in 1962 ?

In tibet , ladakh, north northeast of Kargil,AP

still after these analysis and lessons brought to light

our esteemed IAF was not prepared for the same battlefield in 1999 (kargil)

As of now, there is no fighter jet in the World that can perform satisfactorily from Leh. In all three, Tejas , Rafale, Typhoon , modifications were done to make them perform at Leh.
In normal config , they cant take off at such a high altitude.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

pl tell these to Dasault expert on this forum

who finds all dasault (mirage / rafale ) as the panacea for ill os IAF

and LCA as the root cause of all Ills of IAF

who has time and again said that mirage are better than LCA and never explaind how or done specification wise comparision

It was the config in which we bought Mirage 2000. After Kargil, subsequent modifications like the ones ongoing , have added good A2G capabilities. I wouldnt say LCA is better than Mirage 2000, they both are equal at this moment. And truly, nobody here believes LCA is bad .

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

As of now, there is no fighter jet in the World that can perform satisfactorily from Leh. In all three, Tejas , Rafale, Typhoon , modifications were done to make them perform at Leh.
In normal config , they cant take off at such a high altitude.

the modifications were only to fuel supply system not any other major modification

the problems that are faced by
Mirage Mig 27 and Jaguar are performance related issues, which cannot be rectified

Tejas has taken off from Leh at full load 3.5 tonnes payload + 400 kg telemetry testing equipment
(full 4 T ) payload

even during kargil while it was shown Mirage bombing
nobody is till today confirming wether they flew with full payload or with reduced payload

i guess and suspect they flew with reduced payload

while LCA is capable of flying in those areas at full payload and capable of being based at AFB in KArgil(new base) Nyoma(new base) Leh, etc bases

LCA is way better and fits our requirements and way better than mirage, mig27 and Jaguars

only mig 29 can beat it in some aspects

i am not saying it can replace rafale or Su30MKI

but at least we should give credit where it is due and not unnecesarrily run it down

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

It was the config in which we bought Mirage 2000. After Kargil, subsequent modifications like the ones ongoing , have added good A2G capabilities. I wouldnt say LCA is better than Mirage 2000, they both are equal at this moment. And truly, nobody here believes LCA is bad .

if you go for spec by spec comparision with Mirage 2000 upgrade with LCA mk1 and Mk2

you will find LCA Mk1 and Mk2 will beat mirage 2000 hands down in capabilites

barring payload

avionics radar , radar range etc

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

the modifications were only to fuel supply system not any other major modification

the problems that are faced by
Mirage Mig 27 and Jaguar are performance related issues, which cannot be rectified

Tejas has taken off from Leh at full load 3.5 tonnes payload + 400 kg telemetry testing equipment
(full 4 T ) payload

even during kargil while it was shown Mirage bombing
nobody is till today confirming wether they flew with full payload or with reduced payload

i guess and suspect they flew with reduced payload

while LCA is capable of flying in those areas at full payload and capable of being based at AFB in KArgil(new base) Nyoma(new base) Leh, etc bases

LCA is way better and fits our requirements and way better than mirage, mig27 and Jaguars

only mig 29 can beat it in some aspects

i am not saying it can replace rafale or Su30MKI

but at least we should give credit where it is due and not unnecesarrily run it down

LCA , in any way cannot replace MiG27 or Jaguar. Its impossible for LCA to accomplish tasks jags and MiGs can .
LCA can replace Mirages, but there is no need as of now.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

if you go for spec by spec comparision with Mirage 2000 upgrade with LCA mk1 and Mk2

you will find LCA Mk1 and Mk2 will beat mirage 2000 hands down in capabilites

barring payload

avionics radar , radar range etc

those 3 exceptions you said are among the most important aspects of an aircraft. excluding them in a comparison is unwise.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

those 3 exceptions you said are among the most important aspects of an aircraft. excluding them in a comparison is unwise.

i meant only payload

avionics are the best as usaul we can mox an match for LCA while for mirge only french

even radar and radar range are better in LCA than in Mirage

LCA mk2 will get AESA while mirage even after upgrade will not get AESA not even pesa only pulse doppler radar

 

[pmaitra]

Overall LCA isn't designed for low altitude flight.

This exactly is my point @Kunal Biswas and @ersakthivel, and that is why I said, LCA is not designed for CAS. The wing profile of the LCA, or for that matter the MiG-21, is a sheer giveaway.

We can do a lot of improvisation with these high-altitude fighters and use them for CAS, just like we fitted rocket-pods to the Mil-17 and called it a "gunship," but it still is a troop transporter.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

This exactly is my point @Kunal Biswas and @ersakthivel, and that is why I said, LCA is not designed for CAS. The wing profile of the LCA, or for that matter the MiG-21, is a sheer giveaway.

We can do a lot of improvisation with these high-altitude fighters and use them for CAS, just like we fitted rocket-pods to the Mil-17 and called it a "gunship," but it still is a troop transporter.

the point is not wether LCA is a CAS optimised plane the point is if Rafale / Mirage with same design are sais to be good at CAS then why cant LCA perform the same roles at CAS ?

the problem is while Rafale/Mirage with same design limitations are glorified LCA is unnecesarrily run down

 

[pmaitra]

the point is not wether LCA is a CAS optimised plane the point is if Rafale / Mirage with same design are sais to be good at CAS then why cant LCA perform the same roles at CAS ?

the problem is while Rafale/Mirage with same design limitations are glorified LCA is unnecesarrily run down

Rafale/Mirage with the same design are said to be good at CAS, by whom? Are they better than the Sukhoi-25 and A-10, or worse?

Here is a comparison of wing shape (credit goes to keptin from another forum, but I am not allowed to post links to other fora):

Now, let us see the wing profiles of some common aircraft.

Mirage-2000

HAL LCA Tejas

MiG-21

Sukhoi-25

Fairchild Republic A-10

Judge for yourselves folks.

 

[arnabmit]

Also, no delta wing can ever hope to match slow speed maneuverability of a straight wing config. Canards and levicons can only get you so far. For "low and slow" a stable airframe winch has glider like characteristics is non-negotiable.

With an open architecture, weapons integration should be a problem. However 'usable payload' is restrictive.

If people must insist on comparing 2 different categories of crafts as in Rafale & Tejas, then someone should calculate as to how much fuel would be required for 5hr subsonic loiter, and after deducting the 'fuel load' (int+ext), how much of the 'usable payload' would be left for weapons?

Rafale is better tuned to fly at low altitude and at slower speeds and has additional sensors. These are the only major advantages if we consider even LCA will get all the necessary electronics and weapons. The bigger problem is there is no known roadmap for DIRCM for LCA. Once that issue is sorted out, LCA will be more survivable at low altitudes.

LCA's limited weapons loads is what hurts its strike capabilities.