Sukhoi PAK FA

[bhramos]

Nellis Air Force Base unveils F-16 in Russian-style color scheme

 

[bhramos]

Fighters of the 64th Squadron (the so-called "aggressors" imitating the likely enemy) of the 57th US Air Force wing, stationed at the Nellis airbase, received a new "pixel" color of the fuselage. Defense Ministry will take Su-57 in pixel color

 

[bhramos]

Personnel at the corrosion shop are almost done with the Ghost! Who's ready to see this Aggressor in the sky?!

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafale doesn't fill the Stealth void. Either AMCA comes in time or IAF will remain Stealthless.
Even with AMCA coming in time IAF still has to go a whole decade till 2030 without Stealth.

What are the targeted thrust weight for uprated m88 ? How will it be useful for indegenisation unless its core is mated with Kaveri.
What happens to K9 or k10 then?

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There is no stealth role in the IAF. It is a penetration strike role which the Rafale fills better than anything. With Meteor it also supplants anything else in the region as the premiere air dominance fighter. As the Su-57 isn't stealth, it wouldn't bring any advantage that the Rafale doesn't already have.

The uprated Kaveri would be similar to the F414 in performance but being a quarter tonne lighter in weight. With a set of two it would be half a tonne lighter and have better SFC.

The engine for the SCAF will be bigger but similar in weight to the F414 and able to generate 27,000lbs of thrust.

 

[IndianHawk]

At the moment Kaveri is in limbo. We need to pump in more funds to leverage r&d for engine hot section. For that private and public sector should go hand in hand. We need Ceramic Matrix Composite (CMC) materials to enable kabini to achieve the highest core temperature. They should also use 3D technology to develop complex components one layer at a time and open the creative canvass for engineers.

We need to partner with other engine makers. Even highly experienced engine making countries such as German and French are partnering for a definitive powerplant for their sixth gen scaf. French are providing the hot section while German the cold one.

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We need IP for engine. So it is sanctions proof and we can make independent variants of it.

It can have foreign input but IP must be ours .


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[IndianHawk]

There is no stealth role in the IAF. It is a penetration strike role which the Rafale fills better than anything. With Meteor it also supplants anything else in the region as the premiere air dominance fighter. As the Su-57 isn't stealth, it wouldn't bring any advantage that the Rafale doesn't already have.

The uprated Kaveri would be similar to the F414 in performance but being a quarter tonne lighter in weight. With a set of two it would be half a tonne lighter and have better SFC.

The engine for the SCAF will be bigger but similar in weight to the F414 and able to generate 27,000lbs of thrust.

Rafale will fly with external stores. Fuel tanks + missile . Su57 has huge internal fuel capacity and internal weapons bay for 6-8 missile / bombs .
Su57 will be much more survivable in an contested air space. With idz 30 it will have very high manueverability and supercruise .

Rafale has meteor and spectra advantage for now. But sfdr is Indo Russian joint project which will deliver Meteor class missile in 3-4 years .
( The last I heard missile will begin aircraft testing in 2020.)
And su57 will cary much bigger and powerfull aesa with greater range than rafale .
Same for ew which will have more power available than rafale . It will probably be Indo Israeli tech . So even if it doesn't match spectra it will be pretty good at ew and way better than anything Chinese.

IAF always had Stealth role. Why do you think they were involved in pakfa from 2007-2018.
And why are they building amca with Stealth?

They have given up on fgfa . That doesn't mean they can't procure su57 and MKI it with indian Israeli and even french tech. It will be a hedge for amca program delays.

I hope you are right about uprated Kaveri. But there is not much open information on progress.





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[IndianHawk]

Regarding 6th gen bird. That's an opportunity France and Germany should invite India to that project from beginning . And connect more rafale purchase to this.
But I guess Germany won't budge.

After mirage and rafale isn't it time for India and France to move on from buyer seller to joint development. By 2040 India will need 100s of 6th gen birds.
An Indian 6th gen bird with European origin will be serious deterrent to Chinese strength.
It will provide huge market for bird bringing it's cost down . All India needs is IP for Indian version of the bird and engine.


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[neeraj_]

There is no stealth role in the IAF. It is a penetration strike role which the Rafale fills better than anything. With Meteor it also supplants anything else in the region as the premiere air dominance fighter. As the Su-57 isn't stealth, it wouldn't bring any advantage that the Rafale doesn't already have.

The uprated Kaveri would be similar to the F414 in performance but being a quarter tonne lighter in weight. With a set of two it would be half a tonne lighter and have better SFC.

The engine for the SCAF will be bigger but similar in weight to the F414 and able to generate 27,000lbs of thrust.

There are umpteen advantage with Su 57 even if it is comparable to Rafale as per view truth is it is stealthier. It makes no compromise with maneuverability either and it is Russian not French which is the biggest advantage.

Russia is an all weather friend and we will be able to make and indiginize Su 57 to a great extent which will never happen with Rafale.

I think if IN choose Rafale even then we must restrict it to 2-3 squadrons for IAF. IN is already signalling that the offered aircraft aren't fifth gen which other i.e China will be flying and they may ditch Rafale too.

IAF has also asked for full TOT for 114 aircraft contract this time. Their involvement means HAL won't do just screw driver job . While France doesn't wish to offer more than that only Russia can do that.

We have Astra mk2 in advanced stage , ER derby on offer and in development SFDR (alternative for meteor) with Russia . Russia is also working on improved and better missile systems for Su 57 which will make their way into Super Su 30.

So with all do respect Rafale won't be coming out in 100s unless French offer substantial TOT which they won't.

 

[neeraj_]

There is no stealth role in the IAF. It is a penetration strike role which the Rafale fills better than anything. With Meteor it also supplants anything else in the region as the premiere air dominance fighter. As the Su-57 isn't stealth, it wouldn't bring any advantage that the Rafale doesn't already have.

The uprated Kaveri would be similar to the F414 in performance but being a quarter tonne lighter in weight. With a set of two it would be half a tonne lighter and have better SFC.

The engine for the SCAF will be bigger but similar in weight to the F414 and able to generate 27,000lbs of thrust.

There are umpteen advantage with Su 57 even if it is comparable to Rafale as per view truth is it is stealthier. It makes no compromise with maneuverability either and it is Russian not French which is the biggest advantage.

Russia is an all weather friend and we will be able to make and indiginize Su 57 to a great extent which will never happen with Rafale.

I think if IN choose Rafale even then we must restrict it to 2-3 squadrons for IAF. IN is already signalling that the offered aircraft aren't fifth gen which other i.e China will be flying and they may ditch Rafale too.

IAF has also asked for full TOT for 114 aircraft contract this time. Their involvement means HAL won't do just screw driver job . While France doesn't wish to offer more than that only Russia can do that.

We have Astra mk2 in advanced stage , ER derby on offer and in development SFDR (alternative for meteor) with Russia . Russia is also working on improved and better missile systems for Su 57 which will make their way into Super Su 30.

So with all due respect Rafale won't be coming out in 100s unless French offer substantial TOT which they won't.

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafale will fly with external stores. Fuel tanks + missile . Su57 has huge internal fuel capacity and internal weapons bay for 6-8 missile / bombs .
Su57 will be much more survivable in an contested air space. With idz 30 it will have very high manueverability and supercruise .

Rafale already supercruises at Mach 1.2 with a drop tank and A2A loadout. With uprated M88s it will supercuise at Mach 1.5 with 3X drop tanks and A2A loadout. Su-57 might carry a minimal load internally but it still has the RCS of a Rafale with stores. Don't forget that the Rafale is assembled far more precisely than the Su-57 with bolts hanging out of it.

Rafale has meteor and spectra advantage for now. But sfdr is Indo Russian joint project which will deliver Meteor class missile in 3-4 years .

Rafale is shooting down drones with RCS of a cruise missile at 150km and a max range of 300km.


I don't see Russia putting any money into SFDR.

And su57 will cary much bigger and powerfull aesa with greater range than rafale .

We saw how good Russian AESA was at the MMRCA trials, it couldn't even target an airliner at the range it was supposed to lock a fighter.

Same for ew which will have more power available than rafale . It will probably be Indo Israeli tech . So even if it doesn't match spectra it will be pretty good at ew and way better than anything Chinese.

Spectra is already the best in the world and nothing Israel has will best it. Now that they have bent the knee to the F-35 they won't be developing much of anything now as no state orders will be coming for EW. They take what the US gives them in welfare military aid.

IAF always had Stealth role. Why do you think they were involved in pakfa from 2007-2018.
And why are they building amca with Stealth?

Stealth isn't a role, it is an ability an aircraft uses to accomplish a mission. The PAK FA was analysed by the IAF and found its capabilities lacking so they ditched it. They analysed the capabilities of the Rafale and they want hundreds of them. Now that Modi doubled down on Rafale it is assured he will follow up on requests of the IAF to make India the premier air power in Asia.

They have given up on fgfa . That doesn't mean they can't procure su57 and MKI it with indian Israeli and even french tech. It will be a hedge for amca program delays.

India has enough MKI it won't be looking at anymore heavy weight fighters. All that matters from Russia is a cost effective Super 30 solution that isn't outdated the moment it hits the market.

I hope you are right about uprated Kaveri. But there is not much open information on progress.

Now that Modi wins there is nothing to worry about. He will take care of everything.

 

[IndianHawk]

Rafale already supercruises at Mach 1.2 with a drop tank and A2A loadout. With uprated M88s it will supercuise at Mach 1.5 with 3X drop tanks and A2A loadout. Su-57 might carry a minimal load internally but it still has the RCS of a Rafale with stores. Don't forget that the Rafale is assembled far more precisely than the Su-57 with bolts hanging out of it.




Rafale is shooting down drones with RCS of a cruise missile at 150km and a max range of 300km.


I don't see Russia putting any money into SFDR.



We saw how good Russian AESA was at the MMRCA trials, it couldn't even target an airliner at the range it was supposed to lock a fighter.



Spectra is already the best in the world and nothing Israel has will best it. Now that they have bent the knee to the F-35 they won't be developing much of anything now as no state orders will be coming for EW. They take what the US gives them in welfare military aid.



Stealth isn't a role, it is an ability an aircraft uses to accomplish a mission. The PAK FA was analysed by the IAF and found its capabilities lacking so they ditched it. They analysed the capabilities of the Rafale and they want hundreds of them. Now that Modi doubled down on Rafale it is assured he will follow up on requests of the IAF to make India the premier air power in Asia.



India has enough MKI it won't be looking at anymore heavy weight fighters. All that matters from Russia is a cost effective Super 30 solution that isn't outdated the moment it hits the market.



Now that Modi wins there is nothing to worry about. He will take care of everything.

Su57 can carry more than f35 or j20 internally.
That is serious firepower for Stealth plane.
Rafale RCS with same ordinance will be much higher than su57.
Precision can't match internal weapons bay and geometric Stealth. Why would anyone bother with internal weapons bay if precision was enough ? Including USA ?

Sfdr is Indo Russia joint project so Russia is putting money into it. It will have performance in the ballpark of meteor. And the project is on schedule. Rafale has advantage of meteor today but it won't last forever. Others will catch up eventually.

Same goes for spectra. It is better senser fusion but again others are already catching up. Israel has an aesa , has top class jammers and sensors and India is also developing ew with sensor fusion for mwf. We will have our own ew suite with sensor fusion. All I'm saying it might still not match spectra but it will be able to beat whatever Chinese pakis will bring on table.

I never said russian aesa although they have been improving as mig35 is operational now.
Uttam aesa will be scaled up for Indian version.
Su57 has bigger nose then rafale it will fit more modules and will have more operational power.
Thus su57 aesa will have greater range than rafale and more jamming power. Similarly for ew su57 provides more space for equipment / sensors and more power to operate them .
What is so hard to understand.

Rafale is excellent today but by 2025-30 others will catch up to what rafale provides today.
That is what has been happening in defense market since forever.
To think that superiority today means superiority over a decade is a naive thought.
Of course rafale can again gain edge by mid upgrade.

As for su30 upgrade it will have an aesa ( again bigger and Powerful than rafale with greater range) and it will have su35 level ew at the minimum. Maybe not upto rafale but not as behind as you think.

Heavy birds are necessary in Stealth era. To carry more internal fuel and ordinance. As electronic warfare progresses bigger birds will provide more internal space for more powerful ew equipment. By necessity more power will be required and hence bigger powerful engine will come . Thus again the birds will become heavy and big.

Same thing will happen with Franco / German 6th gen bird.




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[Armand2REP]

Su57 can carry more than f35 or j20 internally.
That is serious firepower for Stealth plane.
Rafale RCS with same ordinance will be much higher than su57.
Precision can't match internal weapons bay and geometric Stealth. Why would anyone bother with internal weapons bay if precision was enough ? Including USA ?

Sfdr is Indo Russia joint project so Russia is putting money into it. It will have performance in the ballpark of meteor. And the project is on schedule. Rafale has advantage of meteor today but it won't last forever. Others will catch up eventually.

Same goes for spectra. It is better senser fusion but again others are already catching up. Israel has an aesa , has top class jammers and sensors and India is also developing ew with sensor fusion for mwf. We will have our own ew suite with sensor fusion. All I'm saying it might still not match spectra but it will be able to beat whatever Chinese pakis will bring on table.

I never said russian aesa although they have been improving as mig35 is operational now.
Uttam aesa will be scaled up for Indian version.
Su57 has bigger nose then rafale it will fit more modules and will have more operational power.
Thus su57 aesa will have greater range than rafale and more jamming power. Similarly for ew su57 provides more space for equipment / sensors and more power to operate them .
What is so hard to understand.

Rafale is excellent today but by 2025-30 others will catch up to what rafale provides today.
That is what has been happening in defense market since forever.
To think that superiority today means superiority over a decade is a naive thought.
Of course rafale can again gain edge by mid upgrade.

As for su30 upgrade it will have an aesa ( again bigger and Powerful than rafale with greater range) and it will have su35 level ew at the minimum. Maybe not upto rafale but not as behind as you think.

Heavy birds are necessary in Stealth era. To carry more internal fuel and ordinance. As electronic warfare progresses bigger birds will provide more internal space for more powerful ew equipment. By necessity more power will be required and hence bigger powerful engine will come . Thus again the birds will become heavy and big.

Same thing will happen with Franco / German 6th gen bird.

It would be one thing if it could carry 9t internally, but it only carries a few A2A missiles which doesn't impact the flight characteristics if mounted externally.

As Russia has demonstrated it will be flying with external stores defeating any stealth it never had.

When a Rafale in this configuration has the same RCS as a clean Su-57...

... it means better range, longer strike and more survivability.

Just looking at the Su-57 metal probes hangng out of it one cannot even speak of stealth...

Of course Spectra is better than anything Russia has, of course RBE2 AA is better than anything Russia has, of course Meteor is better than anything Russia has, of course Rafale is supercruising and Su-57 is not.

 

[Defcon 1]

Rafale will fly with external stores. Fuel tanks + missile . Su57 has huge internal fuel capacity and internal weapons bay for 6-8 missile / bombs .
Su57 will be much more survivable in an contested air space. With idz 30 it will have very high manueverability and supercruise .

Rafale has meteor and spectra advantage for now. But sfdr is Indo Russian joint project which will deliver Meteor class missile in 3-4 years .
( The last I heard missile will begin aircraft testing in 2020.)
And su57 will cary much bigger and powerfull aesa with greater range than rafale .
Same for ew which will have more power available than rafale . It will probably be Indo Israeli tech . So even if it doesn't match spectra it will be pretty good at ew and way better than anything Chinese.

IAF always had Stealth role. Why do you think they were involved in pakfa from 2007-2018.
And why are they building amca with Stealth?

They have given up on fgfa . That doesn't mean they can't procure su57 and MKI it with indian Israeli and even french tech. It will be a hedge for amca program delays.

I hope you are right about uprated Kaveri. But there is not much open information on progress.





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For now there is no place for Su57 in IAF unless something really goes wrong with lca mk2 or AMCA. Your point on stealth is valid but IAF considers Rafale to be sufficient for handling chinese fighters such as J20.

Su57's advantages are negated by its high operational cost compared to a medium weight Rafale, not to mention that the Su57 still doesn't have an intended engine while Rafale is a mature plane

 

[Defcon 1]

It would be one thing if it could carry 9t internally, but it only carries a few A2A missiles which doesn't impact the flight characteristics if mounted externally.

As Russia has demonstrated it will be flying with external stores defeating any stealth it never had.

When a Rafale in this configuration has the same RCS as a clean Su-57...

... it means better range, longer strike and more survivability.

Just looking at the Su-57 metal probes hangng out of it one cannot even speak of stealth...

Of course Spectra is better than anything Russia has, of course RBE2 AA is better than anything Russia has, of course Meteor is better than anything Russia has, of course Rafale is supercruising and Su-57 is not.

Rafale doesn't supercruise as far as I know. A source for the same will be appreciated.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Rafale doesn't supercruise as far as I know. A source for the same will be appreciated.

Here you go......................................................................

 

[Snowcat]

Rafale doesn't supercruise as far as I know. A source for the same will be appreciated.

You can find the sources in the rafale thread.

 

[Defcon 1]

Here you go......................................................................

Thanks, I read years ago that Rafale couldn't supercruise but EFT could. That was one major negative point in Rafale's favor during the MMRCA competition. Looks like I misread or the author was wrong

 

[IndianHawk]

It would be one thing if it could carry 9t internally, but it only carries a few A2A missiles which doesn't impact the flight characteristics if mounted externally.

As Russia has demonstrated it will be flying with external stores defeating any stealth it never had.

When a Rafale in this configuration has the same RCS as a clean Su-57...

... it means better range, longer strike and more survivability.

Just looking at the Su-57 metal probes hangng out of it one cannot even speak of stealth...

Of course Spectra is better than anything Russia has, of course RBE2 AA is better than anything Russia has, of course Meteor is better than anything Russia has, of course Rafale is supercruising and Su-57 is not.

Are you even reading what I wrote?
Of course su57 can carry external store so does f35 so will amca that is when they are on non Stealth mission.
On a Stealth mission su57 carries more in its internal bay than f35 or j20.

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[IndianHawk]

For now there is no place for Su57 in IAF unless something really goes wrong with lca mk2 or AMCA. Your point on stealth is valid but IAF considers Rafale to be sufficient for handling chinese fighters such as J20.

Su57's advantages are negated by its high operational cost compared to a medium weight Rafale, not to mention that the Su57 still doesn't have an intended engine while Rafale is a mature plane

You didn't read my post . I said we will only consider su57 when item 30 engine is operational by 2025 likely.

Amca will only come by 2030 if everything goes right. So IAF will go without a stealth bird for an entire decade while Chinese will field 100+ j20 by then. ( They already have 20? Even before 2020) .

And if amca is delayed or amca new engine comes later what does IAF do then?

Saying rafale is sufficient for j20 is one thing but that doesn't negate having a stealth bird ourselves which can penetrate deep into Chinese airspace undetected.

IAF also said that su30 MKI can spot j20.
We know iaf have better bvr than Chinese so
What is the need for rafale? Su30mki itself can shoot down j20 by that reasoning!

I am not advocating for su57 . Simply looking at possiblity without bias. India will need to upgrade it's entire fleet gradually to 5th gen birds so there is plenty of numbers to be filled in the long run.

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[Armand2REP]

Are you even reading what I wrote?
Of course su57 can carry external store so does f35 so will amca that is when they are on non Stealth mission.
On a Stealth mission su57 carries more in its internal bay than f35 or j20.

Su-57 doesn't have the recessed missile compartments so if it is carrying two bombs it can only carry A2A missiles externally. Every mission it would be performing would require it to have something mounted externally whether it be pods, tanks or extra weapons to complete the mission. The internal configuration isn't enough to finish any of the missions accept a short CAP that didn't need the extra missiles.