Small arms of India

Discussion in 'Internal Security' started by A.V., Oct 11, 2009.

  1. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

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    Do you think OFB is intentionally marking up the price of INSAS? They are a monopoly in the space after all. I know they're not supposed to operate for profit but still, it seems unreasonable.
     
  2. Noname34

    Noname34 Regular Member

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    'Opposing the entry of private sector'
    So that's what they are afraid of, private companies entering the foray making good weapons which are 100 times better than the paperweights these idiots make.
    You see that's why they protest, so that they could continue killing soldiers while sitting at home with their fat paychecks and ridiculous benefits.
    And all this is completely supported by idiots in the ministries who are in bed with these people (Nirmala Sitharaman is a communist, so not at all surprising).

    "Defence Ministry to prevail upon the Army''.
    Yeah we all know what that means, these idiots are probably engaging in underhand dealing with their supporters in the MOD to force their trash rifle/lmg/carbine down the army's throat(as always).
    Forcing their trash onto the armed police forces means nothing, the army can hardly get away with it, how could they who have significantly less prowess than them.

    Starting with Sreekumar, fire all the idiots who protested which caused defence production to come to a standstill(another reason to do away with these commie DPSUs).
    And why is the central govt so scared shitless of these commies that everytime they come out to protest, they drop their pants and bend over for them?
    I really don't get it.

    State Sponsored Treason/ State Sponsored Fratricide
    with the full support of Indians who they keep in the blind by sponsoring articles like these, that's all this is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  3. Raj Malhotra

    Raj Malhotra Regular Member

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    All indigenous rifles are dead

    INSAS & mciws will be superceded by Sig, ak203

    DRDO carbine by carcal & ak203

    Ghatak & tiruchi by ak203

    Excaliber & INSAS carbine by ak203

    Hence imported Sig, Ak 203, Carcal will supercede everything

    Apart from that imported sniper, amr, lmg, hmg
    Will supercede Indian ofb sniper, vidhawansk, OFB lmg, OFB hmg

    Indigenous pistol by also imports

    DRDO Carl Gustaf has been cancelled in favor of imports

    Hence nothing Indian will survive
     
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  4. Bleh

    Bleh Berry member Senior Member

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    Caracal deal if all but cancelled...

    Anyway maybe this is for the best. Unlike many other sectors, Indian small arms are not up to the mark.
    INSAS remains a barely upgraded (users equally to blame here), badly manufactured (OFB solely responsible) shit.
    MCIWS was a ill conceived idea... & too late to make any difference. Maybe the SF will get some if they can developed a quality product.

    Ghatak (clearly superior to Trichi) is being widely used.

    Excalibur (paramilitary) & ARDE (army) carbines still have hope of they can deliver.
    Desi GNMPG also may get choosen.

    In future India much not repeat the same mistakes with INSAS but choose desi rifles only if they can meet standard at competitive prices, like Tejas or ships.
    Only then will they work together with forces & take their feedback & suggestions seriously.

    I can't believe everyone is so chutiya that post-2005 the Army even demand free floating barrel, adjustable buttstock, p-rails etc. in further batches of INSAS...
    Similarly they didn't ever ask for a .50 AMR or .338 Lapua DMR. Their existing 7.62×51 with <1000m range won't replace Dragunov.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  5. Gessler

    Gessler Senior Member Senior Member

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    Let's see...

    > The calibre (5.56x30) is kind of a half-a$$ed round. It gives you neither the light-weight of a 9mm, nor the stopping power of a full-fledged 5.56x45 cartridge (carbines in which are easily available within the Amogh's form factor & weight category).

    > Platform is very feature-deficient. The only real interface system is a very short P-rail on top (which is too short to mount a tandem setup of day+night sights). The handguard has no rails at all so adopting of stability-increasing grips isn't happening either.

    > Machining of parts appears to be of very poor quality. In this pic one can clearly see a very ill-fitting dust cover (look near ejection port, btw...good luck retaining zero with that) which somehow managed to pass QC -

    [​IMG]

    > Given everything else that's going on, I see no reason to believe Amogh too doesn't cost a totally unjustifiable, exorbitant amount to purchase. It'd be like buying a Tata Nano for 10+ lakhs.

    To summarize, in my opinion, it's a pretty crappy offer. Especially when you take note of what you can actually get for the price you're shelling out (if not significantly cheaper)...in this day & age, what the OFB Amogh SHOULD have looked like is a CZ Scorpion EVO3, with a polymer receiver frame, and offered in a range of calibres (9mm, .40s&w, .45acp) & barrel lengths (6", 10", 15"), and being of reasonable cost -

    [​IMG]

    On the market right now, for users of sub-compact PDW-type firearms of 9mm calibre (prioritizing hostage-rescue) an ideal buy would have been the above mentioned EVO3 or the B&T MP-9 which our forces already use. HK MP-7 would have been perfect but the export ban is the devil.

    Though, if one is willing to get a more powerful weapon in the weight & size category of current Amogh, one can get a huge selection of AR-15 carbines of 11-13" or below barrel lengths. Like a CAR 816 -

    [​IMG]

    ...and countless other offerings.

    Incidentally...our western neighbour's SSG-N commandos use just such a AR-15, namely the SIG 516PDW, for ship-borne CQC operations. Though these are an even shorter 7.5" barrel length, and fully kitted out with optics, grips, flashlights, the works -

    Screen-Shot-2017-10-11-at-8.56.32-PM.png
    20171004_075917.jpg

    The VBSS teams of our Navy (which should be equipped no worse than a Tier-1 city's SWAT team), unfortunately, despite our much bigger financial resources, remain still largely stuck with the SAF carbine 1A1, a.k.a the post-war British Sterling SMG, which are literally rusting away...

    [​IMG]
     
  6. piKacHHu

    piKacHHu Regular Member

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    I feel OFB and DRDO should altogether leave this business of small firearm design & production given the quality of weapons they produce. The saving from their revenue budget (salary, pension et.al.) can help arming IA and other units with better firearms. Every time you expect a rather modern firearm from them they disappoint you by producing vintage design AMOGH and ARDE carbine. I am no expert on small firearms but for past 10-15 years, I observed following design trait which they keep on repeating on their design.

    1. Muzzle brake: They keep on same dimpled muzzle brake whether it is smaller caliber JVPC or 7.62x51 INSAS. It seems they didn't thought of some alternate design to test it even in any prototype. It happened only when somebody complained of too much recoil of 7.62 INSAS and they copied AK 74 style muzzle brake/compensator.

    Capture.JPG
    2. Gas Piston System: They keep on sticking to FN FAL/AK legacy long stroke system AFAIK. Never tried short-stroke or direct gas impingement system in any of their firearm prototype which I heard of. Now some would give lame & lazy argument about its reliability etc. But it is also a fact that the US used the so called "un-reliable" direct gas impingement M4s effectively in varied terrains like deserts of Iraq to mountains of Afghanistan. There is no penalty in doing Innovation; unfortunately Innovation & OFB doesn't go hand in hand.

    3. Pistol Grip: They are using the same hand grips for last 30 years and offering the same in their new products. No inclusion of latest ergonomics concept in their design. Capture.JPG

    4. Bolt Catch: Bolt-catch remains alien to Indian armed forces except those who are using Tavor and M4s. Surely, it gives some tactical advantage in intense fire-fight. But since Aks dont have it, how can we copy that !

    5. Orange Plastic Furniture: I don't understand what advantage does the bright orange paint gives to the assault rifle which has little resemblance with wooden stock. They even painted their bulky 7.62 sniper rifle with the same paint. It makes feel like "How is this still a thing?".

    6. Picatinny Rail: There is still high aversion towards Picatinny rail in their design philosophy. They half-hardheartedly put small patch here and there but never take inspiration from new generation IMI Galil ACE. In this case, Army also share the blame as it never standardized the optics and fore-grips in their regular issue weapons.
    Captureaa.JPG

    7. Cocking handle: Copied and continued from the legendary FN FAL; no design change in any of their rifle product. They didn't realize that they converted a simple one step cocking into a two step (pulling the lid and cocking) process.

    These points and many more can illustrate the extent of cacoonization of our fire-arm design philosophy. May be , the OFB design team should be attached to the infantry or the least they can play PUBG to get a feel of handling of fire-arms.

    The cloud of doom was cleared a bit when MOD announced the deal for procurement of SIG7.62 & AK203 but the way they are handling CAR816 carbine procurement, it suggests that they have learned nothing. I feel replacement of ww II era Steling Carbine should be the top priority and given that CAR816 is a promising weapon for CQB based on OBL slayer HK416 (which co-incidentally our SF demanded for package deal with US), it gives a good opportunity to cement our relationship with UAE and we can leverage with the CARACAL, to do MII for further orders. But people are suggesting that deal is in jeopardy due to some frivolous objections raised by some committee members and instead offering crappy long stroke CQB carbine with the same above mentioned features. Utterly Disappointing !!
     
  7. Bleh

    Bleh Berry member Senior Member

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    But the real question is, good the armed forces asked for any of those to be added or removed?
    Did Indian army ever actually ask for even the minor things like ergonomic pistol grip or full p-rail or camo paint, & OFB said "Chal kat le be, jo de rahe hay wahi se kaam chala"?

    Because they won't do it themselves as they already have monopoly. Army is buying their rifles without them beating other competition & continued to recieve the faulty INSAS... completely unupgraded in over 20 years.
     
  8. Gessler

    Gessler Senior Member Senior Member

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    A must-read article by Nitin Gokhale regarding the OFB corporatisation (NOT privatisation) drive...

    https://bharatshakti.in/government-determined-to-corporatise-ofb-despite-opposition/

    Key pointers from the article as to why OFB seriously needs to be turned into a DPSU:

    "

    Monopoly Supply: OFB has all along supplied products to Armed forces – the captive customer – on a nomination basis which has its inherent disadvantages. Because of monopoly, there is no incentive for OFB to improve its quality of products and implement a dynamic system of getting customer feedback on both quality and on-time delivery issues.

    Quality issues: Poor quality of OFB products have been a consistent cause for concern. It’s an open secret that the armed forces routinely take up issues concerning the poor quality of ammunition manufactured by the ordnance factories, pointing out that it has led to several fatal incidents.

    High Cost: The high cost of OFB products due to high overhead charges in OFB including high maintenance charges, high supervisory and indirect labour charges are major concerns. This also results in high overhead charges being loaded onto OFB products, with minimal innovation and technology development taking place.

    According to the Additional Controller General of Defence Accounts Report of 2016, the OFB was overcharging the army several hundred crores in cases ranging from battle tanks to clothing to general stores. In the case of the T-90 tanks built under licence from Russia at the Heavy Vehicles Factory Avadi, the OFB was charging the army Rs 21 crore per tank, nearly 50 per cent more than what an import would cost.

    Lack of innovation: There is minimal innovation and technology development in OFB.

    Low productivity: Generally, there is low productivity of plant and machinery and manpower. Furthermore, working under the umbrella of Government procedures and being the sole service provider for Armed Forces, there is no penalty for delayed delivery to the customers. "

    ++++

    Echoes many of the same issues I've been harping about for quite a while (IA being captive market, rip-off prices)...

    https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/insas-rifle-lmg-carbine.43826/page-235#post-1483322

    https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/insas-rifle-lmg-carbine.43826/page-235#post-1479177

    https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/insas-rifle-lmg-carbine.43826/page-266#post-1566119

    ...and which probably everyone on the forum knows by now (QC issues, lack of innovation & productivity).

    I'm glad the Govt is in full acknowledgement of these issues. Here's hoping the conversion into a PSU entity goes through and brings about some much-needed changes. It's easy for us to think OFB is only about guns...it's not. It's about pretty much everything from the shoe laces worn by infantry to tank & artillery shells. And OFB has been hard at over-charging for each and every item in their portfolio - for much of which the IA has been made a captive market with no choice but to buy from OFB.
     
  9. Noname34

    Noname34 Regular Member

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    The end result of corporatization is mentioned in the article itself.
    The article mentions the corporatization of BSNL to give an example how it would happen.
    Everyone knows how successful BSNL is right?
    Its making so much profits that it has to be bailed out by the taxpayer every now and then.
    The truth is that this move by itself will not solve the problems within OFB because it is not an OFB specific problem, its a problem inherent within PSUs.
    As long as the govt refuses to acknowledge the fact that DPSU monopolies are bad there would be no legitimate improvement in India's defence industry.
    I hope this is just the beginning and the govt intends to finally end DPSU monopolies.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  10. Gessler

    Gessler Senior Member Senior Member

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    However, in order to privatize you would first need to corporatize.

    Followed up by phased disinvestment.
     
  11. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Same with details on picture
     
  12. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

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    This helmet set up is actually like a make-shift thing by soldiers, or by the institution? Trialing as mentioned suggests we'll see this more common?
     
  13. Unknowncommando 2

    Unknowncommando 2 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Army, CRPF & JKP all held trials for this setup. But currently only RR Battalions of Assam Regiment particularly using this on ground.
    CRPF bought a helmet with stock additional armour applique on the forehead portion and around.

    JKP held trials recently but no update about actual use.
     
  14. uoftotaku

    uoftotaku Regular Member

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    Patka looks inelegant but is actually super effective. ACH looks good and is light but does not provide same level of protection. In a high threat environment soldiers don't mind a bit more weight in exchange for protection so this is an inelegant but effective solution.

    They can reuse the armour ring on existing patka pieces and graft them on. Win Win
     
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  15. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

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    Pretty interesting, please do post more if it pops up.
     
  16. Unknowncommando 2

    Unknowncommando 2 Senior Member Senior Member

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    53055680_2167865469960164_6960036967509655552_n~01.jpg en-news-04103521-IMG-20190305-WA0005.jpg forces_1553739464_650x488.jpeg
    As of now I have found these 3 on simple google search
     
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  17. Bleh

    Bleh Berry member Senior Member

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  18. vampyrbladez

    vampyrbladez Senior Member Senior Member

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    MCIWS (ARDE - INDIA)

    [​IMG]

    UNKNOWN AR15/G3 HYBRID (POF - PAKISTAN)

    [​IMG]

    EXCALIBUR INSAS VARIANT (OFB - INDIA)

    [​IMG]

    OFB should be dissolved!
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  19. uoftotaku

    uoftotaku Regular Member

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    Small thing. The 7.62 version of the Armalite range is called the AR-10 and is a much older model. While AR-15 refers exclusively to the 5.56mm version and its derivatives which came around 15 years later.

    Looking at this hybrid, POF have combined the AR-10 upper receiver, barrel and direct impingement gas system with the lower receiver of the H&K G3 which they currently produce.

    Interesting titbit, Armalite actually offered the IA their AR-10 way back but OFB selected the FN FAL and made the SLR instead. Later Armalite also offered to make their AR-18 carbine but OFB declined and embarked on the shit show that is INSAS
     
  20. Gessler

    Gessler Senior Member Senior Member

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    OFB is not a PSU at all. It's a Board that encompasses a large number of individually run & managed Ordnance Factories, none of which are PSUs either. They're all simply Govt-owned units that answer directly to Dept of Defence Production (MoD).

    The whole reason why OF employees were on strike recently is because of the ongoing proposal to TURN them into a PSU.
     

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