Know Your 'Rafale'

[vampyrbladez]

Then don't call me "bro".
I never directed attack on you.
And "precise source" so Can I ask you WHO WERE THE ONES WHO Raised the leak could had happened in india and why the navy chief had at that time had to come and say "the leak didn't happen in india".
First of all your nation is like any other nation "Please don't act all high and mighty".
Can't you even go in this own forum previous pages.
There was even a thread here.

Leak of Scorpene done by HDW aka Germany. In Rafale drama EADS and LM are trying to scuttle the deal.

Always look to who benefits to know who did it.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Leak of Scorpene done by HDW aka Germany. In Rafale drama EADS and LM are trying to scuttle the deal.

Always look to who benefits to know who did it.

Na sirji I read in Hindu and other news media "IT WAS ONE OF THEIR OWN FRENCH GUY IN DCNS IN France".

 

[vampyrbladez]

Na sirji I read in Hindu and other news media "IT WAS ONE OF THEIR OWN FRENCH GUY IN DCNS IN France".

Nope. He was the mole but the whole thing was orchestrated by outside sources. This is corporate espionage.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Nope. He was the mole but the whole thing was orchestrated by outside sources. This is corporate espionage.

Anyway no one from here was involved
Becuase when the news came I know it correctly people were going nuts and were blaming each other and I was like "heck where is the professionalism, everyone talk about it".

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

We need 3 years time to test & integrate a FULLY DEVELOPED, OFF-THE-SHELF radar, and a FULLY DEVELOPED, OFF-THE-SHELF electronic warfare suite.

That should give you some perspective.

First of all, the fully developed off the shelf radar is a pipe dream. These are not fully developed in any manner. That is where you are having problems. India wants indigenous items only and the radar and EW will be Indian

FYI, the tender calls for procurement of 83 radar sets and 83 EW suites, for integration on all 83 Mk1A-standard production planes. None of them will be having Indian radar (Uttam) or DRDO-developed UEWS suite.

Again, this is your imagination. Tender has to be called for each and every item. The problem here is that you are assuming Israeli radar is being used. Just see this video to understand that Tejas MK1A is expected to have this UTTAM AESA. Even the current MMR radar is expected to be replaced with UTTAM AESA

we selected the suppliers for the major electronic LRUs (both Israeli)

Again, can you tell me which LRU is major? Which LRU is minor? How do you know ISraeli LRU is used?

I'm the one trying to bang some sense into your empty head by giving you a perspective of the timelines involved here. The Mk-2 is a pipedream that is minimum 10 years away.

I have told you repeatedly that India needs time to develop radars and EW suite. You seem to have an empty head taht can't be filled with information. Just watch the above video to understand

We have requested 18 more kits for su30mkis from Russia. What does that mean?

Do you know this for sure? The word is for 40 kits and possible Super Sukhoi upgrade.

If we had mastered turbine blades Kaveri engine would have been flying. No one shares critical technology. You have to burn your ass day and night to achieve it or rob it as America did from germans and chinese are doing from Russia and US and from wherever they can get along with burning their asses day and night....

I can't repeat the same again and again. We have made Al31F and also Kaveri. The problem with Kaveri is that initial idea of 78kN engine was the problem. Initially tejas was expected to have empty weight of 5.5 ton and MToW of 13 tons but due to changes in Tejas, the Kaveri is now useless even if it is ready as it becomes too underpowered

 

[vampyrbladez]

Anyway no one from here was involved
Becuase when the news came I know it correctly people were going nuts and were blaming each other and I was like "heck where is the professionalism, everyone talk about it".

The Navy War Room leak was an example of corporate espionage.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The reasons the rafale is needed and the advantages it offers over existing assets -

Best BVR in the world in meteor.Allows us to outmatch amraam easily.
1/100 th the rcs of a sukhoi 30mki(its biggest weakness)
Best EW suite in the world in spectra(su-30mki doesnt have MAWS
AESA radar

Its the perfect surgical strike platform due to spectra,standoff munitions,low rcs and meteor.
It will also be a lethal SEAD/DEAD platform incase of air ops inside pak or tibet.

 

[Gessler]

First of all, the fully developed off the shelf radar is a pipe dream. These are not fully developed in any manner. That is where you are having problems. India wants indigenous items only and the radar and EW will be Indian

Again, this is your imagination. Tender has to be called for each and every item. The problem here is that you are assuming Israeli radar is being used. Just see this video to understand that Tejas MK1A is expected to have this UTTAM AESA. Even the current MMR radar is expected to be replaced with UTTAM AESA

These are the hopeful expectations of project managers - they do not reflect reality. Reality is that Elbit and Elisra were selected L-1 in RFQ for radar and EW suite respectively.

https://www.janes.com/article/85107...ystems-radar-and-ew-suite-for-tejas-lca-mk-1a

Going by what these same type of hopeful project managers say, one would also be lead to believe that the last 2 Kalvari-class subs will be fitted with indigenous AIP. However, reality hits these extra-optimistic claims in the face later on and then they double down on the claims.

Only pipedream radar here is UTTAM. It is years & years away from being operationally certified. Neither HAL nor IAF wants to delay the Mk-1A program till the time UTTAM is ready (which could take 5 years or more).

Elta 2052 on the other hand, is already been fitted on Jaguar DARIN-3, and it was a fully operational system even prior to that (otherwise it would never have been allowed to compete in the RFQ for radars).

https://quwa.org/2017/08/14/hal-test-flies-jaguar-darin-iii-elm-2052-aesa-radar/

You can find scanned copies of the relevant RFQs that called for procurement of radars & EW suites here:

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2017/01/dissecting-rfqs-of-halardc-for-tejas.html

But I don't see what's the point in trying to educate you with facts considering you seem to have no intent of following them and insist that we all live in a la-la land imagined by over-enthusiastic DPSU personnel, who would have us believe Kaveri would power the IOC Mk-1 itself (remember that was the original intention long ago).

 

[Armand2REP]

Only pipedream radar here is UTTAM. It is years & years away from being operationally certified. Neither HAL nor IAF wants to delay the Mk-1A program till the time UTTAM is ready (which could take 5 years or more).

Elta 2052 on the other hand, is already been fitted on Jaguar DARIN-3, and it was a fully operational system even prior to that (otherwise it would never have been allowed to compete in the RFQ for radars).

I think you are confused over what kind of radar Elta 2052 is. It is not on the level of RBE2 AA or UTTAM. It is a much smaller, lower power and lower 500 T/R count radar. The reason it is of value to the Jaguar is its ground mapping mode which UTTAM is having problems with. It is not the radar you want in an air superiority fighter but a ground striker.

 

[Gessler]

I think you are confused over what kind of radar Elta 2052 is. It is not on the level of RBE2 AA or UTTAM. It is a much smaller, lower power and lower 500 T/R count radar. The reason it is of value to the Jaguar is its ground mapping mode which UTTAM is having problems with. It is not the radar you want in an air superiority fighter but a ground striker.

The radar has been tested and selected for Mk-1A - meaning it performs satisfactorily in all relevant modes of operation.

As of T/R count - it can vary depending on size of nose cone. The antenna is scalable. It is the architecture & back-end technology that matters.

 

[Armand2REP]

The radar has been tested and selected for Mk-1A - meaning it performs satisfactorily in all relevant modes of operation.

As of T/R count - it can vary depending on size of nose cone. The antenna is scalable. It is the architecture & back-end technology that matters.

It comes in two versions, 300 and 500 T/R counts. It is a baby radar. At 700 T/R modules UTTAM is more powerful. India shouldn't waste their time with such low power except making sense in a Jaguar conducting ground strikes.

 

[Gessler]

It comes in two versions, 300 and 500 T/R counts. It is a baby radar. At 700 T/R modules UTTAM is more powerful. India shouldn't waste their time with such low power except making sense in a Jaguar conducting ground strikes.

There is also a 1500 T/R variant. The Active phased array is extremely scalable - it is a quality of all phased array radars. Including RBE-2.

The RBE has some ~700-1000 T/R because it is specifically designed for Rafale nose. Use the same technology in Su-30 nose, and you can accommodate over 2,000 modules using the same back-end (provided its within the processing capability of the computers involved).

Much like how the AEGIS radars (SPY-series) are scalable according to application, but the technology is the same:

And the 2052 is thoroughly capable of A2A and A2G modes, it is not a A2G-focused radar.

http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34481-34455-en/Groups_ELTA_EltaNumber_Products-ELM.aspx

 

[Armand2REP]

There is also a 1500 T/R variant. The Active phased array is extremely scalable - it is a quality of all phased array radars. Including RBE-2.

The RBE has some ~700-1000 T/R because it is specifically designed for Rafale nose. Use the same technology in Su-30 nose, and you can accommodate over 2,000 modules using the same back-end (provided its within the processing capability of the computers involved).

Much like how the AEGIS radars (SPY-series) are scalable according to application, but the technology is the same:

There are only 300 and 500 T/R variants. It is not scalable for aircraft due to weight limitations. The RBE2 AA is over 1000 modules and a 700 module variant was made for the Tejas tender but wasn't L1. The 500 T/R count 2052 was cheaper but inferior in every way.

 

[Gessler]

There are only 300 and 500 T/R variants. It is not scalable for aircraft due to weight limitations. The RBE2 AA is over 1000 modules and a 700 module variant was made for the Tejas tender but wasn't L1. The 500 T/R count 2052 was cheaper but inferior in every way.

Radartutorial site which is pretty reliable source of info for radar systems:

http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/08.airborne/karte039.en.html

" The Elta ELM-2052 is an operating in X-Band airborne fire control radar designed for air-to-air superiority and advanced strike missions. The radar is based on fully solid-state active phased array technology. The ELM-2052 is an upgraded version of the ELM-2032. Its antenna can be fitted with either 300, or 500, or 1500 active Gallium- Arsenide TR-Modules. "

I'm not saying 2052 is better system overall than RBE-2, but it is enough for the Mk-1A in that it met every required parameter needed to qualify, and their bid was lowest. So no reason not to buy it.

 

[Armand2REP]

Radartutorial site which is pretty reliable source of info for radar systems:

http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/08.airborne/karte039.en.html

" The Elta ELM-2052 is an operating in X-Band airborne fire control radar designed for air-to-air superiority and advanced strike missions. The radar is based on fully solid-state active phased array technology. The ELM-2052 is an upgraded version of the ELM-2032. Its antenna can be fitted with either 300, or 500, or 1500 active Gallium- Arsenide TR-Modules. "

I'm not saying 2052 is better system overall than RBE-2, but it is enough for the Mk-1A in that it met every required parameter needed to qualify, and their bid was lowest. So no reason not to buy it.

The 1500 doesn't exist. There is a difference between paper and reality and it would only ever fit in an F-15. As Israel is buying F-35s there is no money to develop such a radar.

The UTTAM is the better radar for Tejas, the RBE2 mini is a better radar for Tejas. Getting a 500 module 2052 is limiting the capabilities when it can fit 700 T/R modules.

 

[Arsalan123]

No nothing good is going to happen.
Sleep tight dude.

yes okay.tonight it's calm.i hope everything will remain fine.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

These are the hopeful expectations of project managers - they do not reflect reality. Reality is that Elbit and Elisra were selected L-1 in RFQ for radar and EW suite respectively.

https://www.janes.com/article/85107...ystems-radar-and-ew-suite-for-tejas-lca-mk-1a

Going by what these same type of hopeful project managers say, one would also be lead to believe that the last 2 Kalvari-class subs will be fitted with indigenous AIP. However, reality hits these extra-optimistic claims in the face later on and then they double down on the claims.

Only pipedream radar here is UTTAM. It is years & years away from being operationally certified. Neither HAL nor IAF wants to delay the Mk-1A program till the time UTTAM is ready (which could take 5 years or more).

Elta 2052 on the other hand, is already been fitted on Jaguar DARIN-3, and it was a fully operational system even prior to that (otherwise it would never have been allowed to compete in the RFQ for radars).

https://quwa.org/2017/08/14/hal-test-flies-jaguar-darin-iii-elm-2052-aesa-radar/

You can find scanned copies of the relevant RFQs that called for procurement of radars & EW suites here:

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2017/01/dissecting-rfqs-of-halardc-for-tejas.html

But I don't see what's the point in trying to educate you with facts considering you seem to have no intent of following them and insist that we all live in a la-la land imagined by over-enthusiastic DPSU personnel, who would have us believe Kaveri would power the IOC Mk-1 itself (remember that was the original intention long ago).

Have common sense. Mk1A is 3 years away. 24 MK1 is yet to be made. Uttam radar has already started flight trials. How is it a pipedream? Why trials will take more than 3 years? Already trials from rooftop & business jets have taken place.

Repeatedly insisting that an inferior Israel radar will be used is irritating. If Israeli AESA radar was to be used why not use on mk1 too? Why use MMR radar?

Again giving false comparison with kalvari & kaveri development which was sabotaged by congress makes no sense. There is no congress to sabotage now

 

[Gessler]

Have common sense. Mk1A is 3 years away. 24 MK1 is yet to be made. Uttam radar has already started flight trials. How is it a pipedream? Why trials will take more than 3 years? Already trials from rooftop & business jets have taken place.

Tikhomirov NIIP unveiled their AESA FCR prototypes almost 15 years ago. As of date they still don't have their N036 AESA in series production.

Or you think that suddenly, LRDE somehow became more proficient and capable than Tikhomirov/Phazotron in developing fighter planes' fire control radars?

Repeatedly insisting that an inferior Israel radar will be used is irritating.

I can't help it if you find facts to be irritating. No wonder your arguments are full of holes.

No one gives 2 hoots what you think of the Israeli radar in question. The said radar was found compliant with the IAF-specified qualitative requirements in the RFQ. That is the only opinion that matters.

The selection of 2052 radar is public information, that is the reason why there was all that commotion in recent times regarding Meteor not being able to integrate with Tejas. Not my problem if you choose to ignore it and live in your own world.

" A senior HAL official told Livefist, “The LCA program has come up on Israeli-origin sensors. The EL/M-2052 radar was chosen in a competitive process. The same radar is also now on the new build Jaguar jets. The Indian Air Force has been well aware of the process of selection. At no point has there been any hurdle in the selection.”

- https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...eteor-armed-lca-tejas-could-formally-die.html

Now you may proceed to live in a world of your own creation where UTTAM will be integrated on Mk-1A instead of ELM-2052.

If Israeli AESA radar was to be used why not use on mk1 too? Why use MMR radar?

Because IAF never asked for an AESA radar for Mk-1.

The 1500 doesn't exist. There is a difference between paper and reality and it would only ever fit in an F-15. As Israel is buying F-35s there is no money to develop such a radar.

The UTTAM is the better radar for Tejas, the RBE2 mini is a better radar for Tejas. Getting a 500 module 2052 is limiting the capabilities when it can fit 700 T/R modules.

The number of T/R modules on most radars is always a highly classified figure - everything is guesstimates at best. I trust IAF's qualitative requirements set in the tender where 2052 emerged victorious.

Do note that Elta had been working closely with HAL in past with regard to a planned 2052-based AESA FCR meant for Tejas Mk-2 (this was prior to emergence of Mk-1A concept). I'm sure the 2052 variant in question is tailored to deliver the maximum performance and T/R number possible given the LCA's nose dimensions.

 

[lcafanboy]

It comes in two versions, 300 and 500 T/R counts. It is a baby radar. At 700 T/R modules UTTAM is more powerful. India shouldn't waste their time with such low power except making sense in a Jaguar conducting ground strikes.

Elta2052 is scalable radar family. It can be even used for su30mkis. Reason why we are 300 tr radar in jaguars is restriction of sale on israeI to indIa for more powerful variant.

Uttam radars is also a family of radar but is under test phase. It will take at least 5-7 years for maturity and by then GaN modules will be incorporated. That radar will go into Amca and MWF... Mk1A will get elta2052 which is as good as rbe2 radar but with lower range with 500to700 TR module depending upon clearence from uncle...

 

[lcafanboy]

Do you know this for sure? The word is for 40 kits and possible Super Sukhoi upgrade.

40 is still under consideration and speculation. 18 is confirmed. Question was about royalty, which we have to pay and will pay.

I can't repeat the same again and again. We have made Al31F and also Kaveri. The problem with Kaveri is that initial idea of 78kN engine was the problem. Initially tejas was expected to have empty weight of 5.5 ton and MToW of 13 tons but due to changes in Tejas, the Kaveri is now useless even if it is ready as it becomes too underpowered

We assemble AL31 engines. Not all parts are made in India. It's like Maruti assemling engine. Crankcase and head is made by Maruti but Pistons, crank made by mahle and bharat forge. We make engine casing and other cold parts but hot parts come from Saturn and Even thrust vectoring nozzles too come from saturn. That's the reason we have tied up with klimov for TOT for thrust vectoring nozzles.

And supposedly Even if we make AL31 in house we can't use it in any future fighter planes. Why? It's a 3rd gen engine and can't be used in 5th gen fighters otherwise it will simply negate the idea of 5th gen fighter. Just look at J-20 a stealth design fighter with 3rd gen engine with loàds of infra red signature lighting up the ass inviting IR Air to Air missiles to f*ck it up royally....

Russia moved from AL31 to S117/AL41 and now moving to Item30 which weighs just under 1300kgs and have 175kn thrust.

Now you will rant Rhenium. We too can and should use Rehnium even if it costs a bomb if it solves the problem of Kaveri engine but there's more to jet engine single crystal blades than rhenium alone. World has moved to ceramic coated blades and a few companies are trying carbon composites too....