Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

Thales advertisement for Talios pod

 

[Sancho]

BON PLAN will Reliance defence limited build Rafale fighter jets under Make in India if selected.

Bon Plan might say 100%, Dassaults CEO however says, let's wait and see:

But the Dassault chief declined to confirm that Reliance would be the partner in bidding for the 110 fighters. “There is a process of the RFI, and we will see at the time of the Request for Proposal…there is nothing as of now,” he said. “We need a variety of other suppliers [and] we are ready to transfer technology, because my government supports this and our own commitment to India,” he added.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...19/dassault-reports-rafale-progress-india?amp

 

[lcafanboy]

Bon Plan might say 100%, Dassaults CEO however says, let's wait and see:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...19/dassault-reports-rafale-progress-india?amp

Let the tender open, the RFI was especially designed for Rafales. What Dassault has done is they've invested offset for first 36 Rafales to establish production line for Rafales in India. Now they've got a fully deprecated plant and so can offer Rafales at much cheaper rates than all competitors..not to forget we have also invested in 2 bases good for 4 sqdns of Rafales. Now any new fighter will require this infrastructure and will bloat the total cost for competition, so goi will open tender and will put forth these facts and opposition parties will have to shut up and accept Rafales as best buy without any controversy....

 

[Sancho]

What Dassault has done is they've invested offset for first 36 Rafales to establish production line for Rafales in India.

Not really, the offsets are mainly for production and assembly of Falcon business jet parts, not for Rafale. So far only integration an maintenance of Thales Rafale techs are planned at DRAL, with minor sub component production diverted to Indian industry.

not to forget we have also invested in 2 bases good for 4 sqdns of Rafales. Now any new fighter will require this

Wrong again, since the 110 fighters are not meant for these 2 bases. So even if Rafale would win, only 36 fighters would be used there, while you have to create complete new logistics and infrastructure at any other Base, where the rest will be placed, just as for any other fighter in the competition.

The cost advantage Dassault was talking about, was specifically for a next batch of 36 fighters for the 2 bases we already preparing. Which leaves only the Rafale indian specific customizations as a cost, that we wouldn't have to pay again, if we buy 110 Rafales. But that neither makes a major difference, nor would be as high for other fighters, if they don't have to integrate LDP, HMS... anyway.

The original MMRCA was designed fight high performance fighters, with no political side effects and with a government that was ready to pay for at least 126 of them.
The new MMRCA is just an increased SE MMRCA tender, under the same SPM, with much higher focus on low costs and with this government probably even a political deal. So it's exactly the opposite if being designed for Rafale.

 

[lcafanboy]

Not really, the offsets are mainly for production and assembly of Falcon business jet parts, not for Rafale. So far only integration an maintenance of Thales Rafale techs are planned at DRAL, with minor sub component production diverted to Indian industry.



Wrong again, since the 110 fighters are not meant for these 2 bases. So even if Rafale would win, only 36 fighters would be used there, while you have to create complete new logistics and infrastructure at any other Base, where the rest will be placed, just as for any other fighter in the competition.

The cost advantage Dassault was talking about, was specifically for a next batch of 36 fighters for the 2 bases we already preparing. Which leaves only the Rafale indian specific customizations as a cost, that we wouldn't have to pay again, if we buy 110 Rafales. But that neither makes a major difference, nor would be as high for other fighters, if they don't have to integrate LDP, HMS... anyway.

The original MMRCA was designed fight high performance fighters, with no political side effects and with a government that was ready to pay for at least 126 of them.
The new MMRCA is just an increased SE MMRCA tender, under the same SPM, with much higher focus on low costs and with this government probably even a political deal. So it's exactly the opposite if being designed for Rafale.

And that single engine Gripen E wil cost almost same as Twin engine Rafales, so goi will use logic "bada hai to behtar hai" not your salesman's logic "bhaiya rafales cost rs 10000 and yeah 9900 so rs100 sasta hai".

 

[WolfPack86]

#France’s #Thales is confident of creating more than 3,500 high-end jobs in #India over the next three years from offsets over the #Rafale fighter jet deal in partnership with local companies Bharat Electronics and #Reliance Defence.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/rafale?lang=en

 

[BON PLAN]

However, in general, the amount of Indian components you gave is surprising. How much is Indian manufacturing? What you say amounts to massive Indian components

It's just my opinion.
India will need a high indian content to give DA this order. Dassault has not built a factory with Reliance to just produce nuts and bolts.

 

[smestarz]

True, but then Dassault has not really invested so much to BUILD the factory, that is built by Reliance, Dassault is more of less the company that brings in technology. So, its not really a Dassault investment so to speak

It's just my opinion.
India will need a high indian content to give DA this order. Dassault has not built a factory with Reliance to just produce nuts and bolts.

 

[smestarz]

OFFSET is part of the commitment and that was part of the deal for 36 planes, so technically not a favour.

#France’s #Thales is confident of creating more than 3,500 high-end jobs in #India over the next three years from offsets over the #Rafale fighter jet deal in partnership with local companies Bharat Electronics and #Reliance Defence.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/rafale?lang=en

 

[BON PLAN]

True, but then Dassault has not really invested so much to BUILD the factory, that is built by Reliance, Dassault is more of less the company that brings in technology. So, its not really a Dassault investment so to speak

DA is a 49% shareholder, so 49% of the amount was given by DA.

 

[WolfPack86]

#France is all weather partner of #India : @FranceinIndia
https://twitter.com/indiandefencera?lang=en

 

[Sancho]

And that single engine Gripen E wil cost almost same as Twin engine Rafales

Hehe, when you put "almost" in the statement, you basically knew that your it doesn't make any sensense right? :biggrin2:

We know from the Brazilian tender, that there is a big procurement and operational cost difference between Gripen E and Rafale, not to mention that recent news about LCA MK1A costs, put F16 and Gripen E far lower than the 670 crore INR flyaway cost we paid for Rafale. So it's completely unrealistic that the Rafale proposal could be cheaper for sure. Rafale can only win by scoring in performance fields, or a better industrial offer and showing that the extra costs are worth it.

 

[BON PLAN]

Hehe, when you put "almost" in the statement, you basically knew that your it doesn't make any sensense right? :biggrin2:

We know from the Brazilian tender, that there is a big procurement and operational cost difference between Gripen E and Rafale, not to mention that recent news about LCA MK1A costs, put F16 and Gripen E far lower than the 670 crore INR flyaway cost we paid for Rafale. So it's completely unrealistic that the Rafale proposal could be cheaper for sure. Rafale can only win by scoring in performance fields, or a better industrial offer and showing that the extra costs are worth it.

Operationnal costs of a plane in dev phase (Gripen E)...... means nothing.

It's the same than the marvellous performances of the powerpoint F35 in 2002 during the Netherlands bid : the reality is very diffferent, and always in the bad sens.

 

[Vinod DX9]

42 Dassault aircraft flew over the Champs-Élysées on July 14

 

[Sancho]

Operationnal costs of a plane in dev phase (Gripen E)...... means nothing.

Unless you believe it will get another engine, there is not much going to change.

 

[BON PLAN]

Unless you believe it will get another engine, there is not much going to change.

Operationnal costs....

Operationnal = plane on duty. Gripen E is not on duty. So it's for now at best an estimate.


Recent fighter history show how the reality can be different of the powerpoint marketing oriented estimate.

 

[Sancho]

Operationnal costs....

Operationnal = plane on duty. Gripen E is not on duty. So it's for now at best an estimate.

For you for sure, for professional air forces certainly nothe, because they field the fighters in trials to evaluate performance, capabilities and costs, that's how Brazil for example evaluated that the Gripen E and the F18 have lower operational costs than the Rafale.

 

[Armand2REP]

For you for sure, for professional air forces certainly nothe, because they field the fighters in trials to evaluate performance, capabilities and costs, that's how Brazil for example evaluated that the Gripen E and the F18 have lower operational costs than the Rafale.

That is total nonsense. Brasil didn't have a Gripen E to evaluate anything. They took Saab's word for it and now they are in a corruption crisis.

 

[Sancho]

That is total nonsense. Brasil didn't have a Gripen E to evaluate anything. They took Saab's word for it and now they are in a corruption crisis.

They had the Gripen NG Tech demonstrator to evaluate, just as Switzerland or India and it had the same GE414G engine integrated as the E has today. So when it comes to engine performance, maintenance and cost of the engine, nothing has changed.

 

[BON PLAN]

For you for sure, for professional air forces certainly nothe, because they field the fighters in trials to evaluate performance, capabilities and costs, that's how Brazil for example evaluated that the Gripen E and the F18 have lower operational costs than the Rafale.

evaluated.... How to evaluate or trial the Gripen E that wasn't airworthy ? but YOU have the solution I think, as ever.
trials.... how many time the trial ? 2 weeks? 4 weeks? (in the SH18 case. For Gripen see on top)

It's this kind of certitude (yours) that conduct Nederlands to choose F35 on a Powerpoint basis. And the same certitude (agile, supercruising, cheap...) conduct to purchase 37 planes instead of 85.

Congrats ! you are a king.