Know Your 'Rafale'

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
@karn, you constantly forget that this was an open international tender. The prices can be compared ONLY if currency is same. So price CANNOT be in Euro in the tender.

A news report can quote Euro but that is irrelevant.

Anyway best of luck with Rafale. As for IAF, the time has come to move beyond this MMRCA saga.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

smestarz

New Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
1,929
Likes
1,056
Country flag
A decision on Rafale will be strictly under the terms of RFP. There is no link to any other issue like desire of GOI to get cutting edge technology etc.
The idea behind MMRCA was Also ToT using which our domestic companies will get experience and increase their knowledge
 

sorcerer

New Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
26,919
Likes
98,474
Country flag
HAL Will Take Full Responsibility For Rafales' : HAL Chief

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chairman T Suvarna Raju on Thursday said that HAL is willing to take full responsibility for the Rafales that it manufactures if the contract with French Defence major Dassault is signed.

The comment assumes significance in the backdrop of a disagreement between India and Dassault over who would take guarantee for the Rafale fighter jets, reports Express News Service.

The Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft project involves buying of 18 aircraft from Dassault in flyaway condition, while the rest are to be manufactured by HAL under license.


IAF Chief Adds to MMRCA confusion:

India's Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha has added to the prevailing confusion over the purchase of 126 Dassault Rafale fighters by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Addressing a press conference at Aero India 2015 on 19 February, ACM Raha said that to make up for fast depleting fighter numbers it was important for the IAF to swiftly induct a platform for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, but it did not "specifically" have to be the Rafale.

"It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," the IAF chief said.

He stated that with the IAF's legacy fighters like MiG-21s and MiG-27s facing retirement during the next five to six years, it was vital for the IAF to acquire new platforms to maintain a force level of 42 fighter squadrons. In recent years this had dropped to 32 squadrons and this number is slated to reduce even further if new platforms were not speedily inducted.

The air chief's remarks, however, further fuelled speculation that the deal for 126 Rafales to meet the MMRCA requirement could well be on the rocks.

The purchase is reportedly deadlocked over Dassault's refusal to take responsibility for the 108 Rafales that the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is to licence produce in accordance with the 2007 MMRCA tender. Eighteen of 126 aircraft are to be acquired in flyaway condition.

ACM Raha said that three of four subcommittees negotiating the Rafale tender had completed their tasks of determining offsets, maintenance support and technology transfer to HAL to licence produce Rafales.


The fourth, the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC), was still in consultation with Dassault and was yet to submit its report to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), he said.

The stalemate over the CNC's deliberations concerns the escalated contract price — which has reportedly doubled to around USD20 billion — and the standoff between Dassault and the MoD over the licensed production of the fighters.

This impasse prompted Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to say recently that the IAF could acquire additional licence-built Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters if the Rafale deal fell through.

ACM Raha, however, disagreed with Parrikar and said that additional Su-30s were not an acceptable substitute for the MMRCA requirement.

"They are different types of aircraft and cannot replace each other; they only complement each other," he said.

The ACM also reiterated that there was no alternative for the IAF other than acquiring MMRCA. "There is no plan B [to the MMRCA]," he said.


ACM Raha also admitted that air force capabilities were being affected by delays in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme with Russia and the induction of the locally developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.



Read more: http://hindi.sputniknews.com/south_asia/20150221/1013530723.html#ixzz3SOtmDt5o
 

karn

New Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
3,715
Likes
15,777
Country flag
@karn, you constantly forget that this was an open international tender. The prices can be compared ONLY if currency is same. So price CANNOT be in Euro in the tender.

A news report can quote Euro but that is irrelevant.

Anyway best of luck with Rafale. As for IAF, the time has come to move beyond this MMRCA saga.
The money only came into the picture after the competition was over and the lowest bidder had to be selected and if you recall the OEMs of both the Eurofighter and the Rafale deal in Euros.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
The money only came into the picture after the competition was over and the lowest bidder had to be selected and if you recall the OEMs of both the Eurofighter and the Rafale deal in Euros.
You have no knowledge of government procurements. It seems you have never seen a tender document in your life. There are plenty of ignorant folks posting on this forum.

Price is front and center in a tender. Even a pre-qualification will be called only after prices are known.
 

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
I think Raha is finally setting up the stage for cancellation of MMRCA tender. Another plane can be imported through gov-to-gov deal. It is not necessary to call another tender.

I am sure IAF must be getting tired of endless negotiations.
 

smestarz

New Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
1,929
Likes
1,056
Country flag
HAL Will Take Full Responsibility For Rafales' : HAL Chief

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chairman T Suvarna Raju on Thursday said that HAL is willing to take full responsibility for the Rafales that it manufactures if the contract with French Defence major Dassault is signed.

The comment assumes significance in the backdrop of a disagreement between India and Dassault over who would take guarantee for the Rafale fighter jets, reports Express News Service.

The Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft project involves buying of 18 aircraft from Dassault in flyaway condition, while the rest are to be manufactured by HAL under license.


IAF Chief Adds to MMRCA confusion:

India's Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha has added to the prevailing confusion over the purchase of 126 Dassault Rafale fighters by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Addressing a press conference at Aero India 2015 on 19 February, ACM Raha said that to make up for fast depleting fighter numbers it was important for the IAF to swiftly induct a platform for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, but it did not "specifically" have to be the Rafale.

"It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," the IAF chief said.

He stated that with the IAF's legacy fighters like MiG-21s and MiG-27s facing retirement during the next five to six years, it was vital for the IAF to acquire new platforms to maintain a force level of 42 fighter squadrons. In recent years this had dropped to 32 squadrons and this number is slated to reduce even further if new platforms were not speedily inducted.

The air chief's remarks, however, further fuelled speculation that the deal for 126 Rafales to meet the MMRCA requirement could well be on the rocks.

The purchase is reportedly deadlocked over Dassault's refusal to take responsibility for the 108 Rafales that the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is to licence produce in accordance with the 2007 MMRCA tender. Eighteen of 126 aircraft are to be acquired in flyaway condition.

ACM Raha said that three of four subcommittees negotiating the Rafale tender had completed their tasks of determining offsets, maintenance support and technology transfer to HAL to licence produce Rafales.


The fourth, the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC), was still in consultation with Dassault and was yet to submit its report to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), he said.

The stalemate over the CNC's deliberations concerns the escalated contract price — which has reportedly doubled to around USD20 billion — and the standoff between Dassault and the MoD over the licensed production of the fighters.

This impasse prompted Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to say recently that the IAF could acquire additional licence-built Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters if the Rafale deal fell through.

ACM Raha, however, disagreed with Parrikar and said that additional Su-30s were not an acceptable substitute for the MMRCA requirement.

"They are different types of aircraft and cannot replace each other; they only complement each other," he said.

The ACM also reiterated that there was no alternative for the IAF other than acquiring MMRCA. "There is no plan B [to the MMRCA]," he said.


ACM Raha also admitted that air force capabilities were being affected by delays in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme with Russia and the induction of the locally developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.



Read more: http://hindi.sputniknews.com/south_asia/20150221/1013530723.html#ixzz3SOtmDt5o
HAL saying that it would be able to take the responsibility of Rafales that it assembles, it is not a call for HAL to take. It was informed in the RFP that the Company with who the contract is signed (here Dassault) it should give the guarantees. Earlier the French govt was willing to give the guarantees because they had more to lose but seems those were not acceptable
 

smestarz

New Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
1,929
Likes
1,056
Country flag
HAL Will Take Full Responsibility For Rafales' : HAL Chief

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chairman T Suvarna Raju on Thursday said that HAL is willing to take full responsibility for the Rafales that it manufactures if the contract with French Defence major Dassault is signed.

The comment assumes significance in the backdrop of a disagreement between India and Dassault over who would take guarantee for the Rafale fighter jets, reports Express News Service.

The Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft project involves buying of 18 aircraft from Dassault in flyaway condition, while the rest are to be manufactured by HAL under license.


IAF Chief Adds to MMRCA confusion:

India's Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha has added to the prevailing confusion over the purchase of 126 Dassault Rafale fighters by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Addressing a press conference at Aero India 2015 on 19 February, ACM Raha said that to make up for fast depleting fighter numbers it was important for the IAF to swiftly induct a platform for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, but it did not "specifically" have to be the Rafale.

"It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," the IAF chief said.

He stated that with the IAF's legacy fighters like MiG-21s and MiG-27s facing retirement during the next five to six years, it was vital for the IAF to acquire new platforms to maintain a force level of 42 fighter squadrons. In recent years this had dropped to 32 squadrons and this number is slated to reduce even further if new platforms were not speedily inducted.

The air chief's remarks, however, further fuelled speculation that the deal for 126 Rafales to meet the MMRCA requirement could well be on the rocks.

The purchase is reportedly deadlocked over Dassault's refusal to take responsibility for the 108 Rafales that the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is to licence produce in accordance with the 2007 MMRCA tender. Eighteen of 126 aircraft are to be acquired in flyaway condition.

ACM Raha said that three of four subcommittees negotiating the Rafale tender had completed their tasks of determining offsets, maintenance support and technology transfer to HAL to licence produce Rafales.


The fourth, the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC), was still in consultation with Dassault and was yet to submit its report to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), he said.

The stalemate over the CNC's deliberations concerns the escalated contract price — which has reportedly doubled to around USD20 billion — and the standoff between Dassault and the MoD over the licensed production of the fighters.

This impasse prompted Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to say recently that the IAF could acquire additional licence-built Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters if the Rafale deal fell through.

ACM Raha, however, disagreed with Parrikar and said that additional Su-30s were not an acceptable substitute for the MMRCA requirement.

"They are different types of aircraft and cannot replace each other; they only complement each other," he said.

The ACM also reiterated that there was no alternative for the IAF other than acquiring MMRCA. "There is no plan B [to the MMRCA]," he said.


ACM Raha also admitted that air force capabilities were being affected by delays in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme with Russia and the induction of the locally developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.



Read more: http://hindi.sputniknews.com/south_asia/20150221/1013530723.html#ixzz3SOtmDt5o
Why dont everyone of the other agencies and services stop talking and let the MoD spokesperson give the official comments? That would be very much in India's favour, One of the problem that we see is that each chief has a different view and they put it in public domain, and their views are often contradictory (This was very much the style of earlier congress govt)
I think the new govt has to ensure that each service chief and the chiefs of the govt agencies are in the right page and if they cannot comment in sync with the govt views then they best keep their views to themselves. It would be best at such a point of time that during appointment as chief of a govt office, the govt takes an undated signed Resignation letter which can be just dated and accepted during such stupid comments.
Less embarassing
 

smestarz

New Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
1,929
Likes
1,056
Country flag
I think Raha is finally setting up the stage for cancellation of MMRCA tender. Another plane can be imported through gov-to-gov deal. It is not necessary to call another tender.

I am sure IAF must be getting tired of endless negotiations.
Earlier record for IAF was about 10 years, this is just 3
 

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Earlier record for IAF was about 10 years, this is just 3
Which 10 years?? Can you be specific. No, three year plus is ABNORMAL.

The guarantees for HAL work is just a smokescreen. The L1 was declared based on fudged numbers. 2+2 was never 4 in this case. The decision was political.

The government that made that L1 decision could not award the contract (probably due to unstable political situation in France). It is foolish to expect current government to sign it.
 

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Why dont everyone of the other agencies and services stop talking and let the MoD spokesperson give the official comments? That would be very much in India's favour, One of the problem that we see is that each chief has a different view and they put it in public domain, and their views are often contradictory (This was very much the style of earlier congress govt)
I think the new govt has to ensure that each service chief and the chiefs of the govt agencies are in the right page and if they cannot comment in sync with the govt views then they best keep their views to themselves. It would be best at such a point of time that during appointment as chief of a govt office, the govt takes an undated signed Resignation letter which can be just dated and accepted during such stupid comments.
Less embarassing
The current government has made its stand very clear at the earliest stage - that it will go by RFP. There will be no revisions.
However government has refrained from taking a hard stand though the situation is very clear.
Yes there are dependencies on the French in various defence programs. So GOI has been cautious.

If terms are revised for Dassualt, the same favour will have to be given to other vendors also, as I have said earlier. This will nullify the previous L1 declaration. It is a minefield.
 

smestarz

New Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
1,929
Likes
1,056
Country flag
Which 10 years?? Can you be specific. No, three year plus is ABNORMAL.

The guarantees for HAL work is just a smokescreen. The L1 was declared based on fudged numbers. 2+2 was never 4 in this case. The decision was political.

The government that made that L1 decision could not award the contract (probably due to unstable political situation in France). It is foolish to expect current government to sign it.
How many years did it take for HAWK?
 

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Hawk is different as the program was entangled with local product being developed by HAL. MMRCA had no local competitor. Second MMRCA was floated due to an "urgent" requirement.

The facts of this case are very clear. A political choice was made through fudged numbers. The issue was supposed to be sorted later. However political situation changed in both India and France and the deal slipped.
 

NLD

New Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
62
Likes
23
French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Drian will travel to India this week hoping to push on with negotiations to seal the deal on Rafale fighter jets.

French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Drian will meet his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar in the week of February 23 looking to prevent the collapse of a deal to sell 126 Rafale fighter jets.
Three years ago, French company Dassault Aviation won the right to start exclusive negotiations with India to supply 126 Rafale fighters in a deal which could be worth as much as $12 billion.
The deal between the two countries has been difficult when it came to the realization of the project. India previously said the deal was too expensive and looked to back down from the project, instead leaning towards Russian-made Sukhoi-30 MKI that is a better armed, more economical and much cheaper fighter jet.
The French minister plans to push on with negotiations, hoping to resolve the differences in "a fast-track manner". However, his trip could be too little too late. Last week, Russian aircraft corporation Irkut announced that Russia and India plan to discuss the modernization of Russian-designed Su-30MKI fighters, including equipping them with BrahMos cruise missiles.

-sputniknews
 

grampiguy

New Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
140
Likes
145
Russia Lurking In India as Dassault Celebrates in Egypt

Seems that the fear has finally hit home. Some necessary activity seems going on from French side. Alas! the matter has become too dirty to move any further. MoD should better look for a honourable exit from this deal. French can be offered alternative deals in naval arena. Rafale contract is too expensive to be concluded positively.
 

sorcerer

New Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
26,919
Likes
98,474
Country flag
Last Chance: France to Attempt Negotiate Rafale Deal With India This Week
French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Drian will meet his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar in the week of February 23 looking to prevent the collapse of a deal to sell 126 Rafale fighter jets.

Three years ago, French company Dassault Aviation won the right to start exclusive negotiations with India to supply 126 Rafale fighters in a deal which could be worth as much as $12 billion.

The deal between the two countries has been difficult when it came to the realization of the project. India previously said the deal was too expensive and looked to back down from the project, instead leaning towards Russian-made Sukhoi-30 MKI that is a better armed, more economical and much cheaper fighter jet.

The French minister plans to push on with negotiations, hoping to resolve the differences in "a fast-track manner". However, his trip could be too little too late. Last week, Russian aircraft corporation Irkut announced that Russia and India plan to discuss the modernization of Russian-designed Su-30MKI fighters, including equipping them with BrahMos cruise missiles.




Read more: Last Chance: France to Attempt Negotiate Rafale Deal With India This Week / Sputnik International
 

vikas_g

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2014
Messages
90
Likes
68
New Delhi: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drain and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar appear to have sorted out one of the key issues holding up the estimated $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. A final decision is expected to be taken before Prime Minister Narendra Modi before his visit to France in April.

The deal, billed by some as one of biggest defence procurement by any country in a long time, has been on hold for almost a year over the issue of producing the planes here.

Of the 126 jets, 18 are to be purchased ready-made from France. The rest are to be manufactured by the Bengaluru-based Defence Public Sector Unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as part of the government's initiative for defence manufacturing in India.

The French defence manufacturing giant Dassault was hesitant to guarantee the quality of the jets produced in India, since it does not control the process. More importantly, Dassault estimates that the jets can be produced faster, with fewer man hours, than calculated by HAL, which can keep the cost down.

HAL has countered that Indian labour isn't as productive as in France and also, the level of automation here is less.

Senior Defence Ministry Officials told NDTV the first issue - that of guaranteeing the quality of aircraft produced in India - has been settled. India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. Alternatively, Dassault is free to take a counter-guarantee from HAL on the process and quality of inputs.

The second issue - the man hours and the cost -- is now between the two companies to sort out. It will be reflected in the report of the crucial Cost Negotiating Committee, which will be submitted to the ministry shortly.

Mr Parrikar recently said he would not want to comment on the progress of the deal since it could influence the report.

India had decided to buy the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now estimated to have jumped to around $15 billion
Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call
 

Articles

Top