IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

IndianHawk

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That is absurd. You don't need anymore SSKs. You need to spend all of the resources on nuclear subs. You don't see France with any SSKs. It is time India steps up to the plate and claims her rightful place next to France... replacing UK in the P5.
We need many more subs than what France and UK together operate. So it will be both SSK and SSN .

SSK are cheaper and yet quieter than nuke subs.
We need 24 SSK as of now. And we'll keep adding SSN once we start inducting them. We won't stop at mere 6 . They will be re ordered in batches with improvements. But it will be indegenios design and development.
Baracuda class is 5k ton so making a similar SSN won't be much difficult for India as Arihant has 6k displacement. So Arihant design itself can be modified to make a SSN of 5k displacement. What we do need is more powerful nuke reactor. Which anyway nobody will give so indegenios it will be.


Where we can actually copy France is nuclear powered aircraft carrier. How much did de Gaulle cost to french? And how much will cost to remove the nuke reactor when it retires?

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IndianHawk

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Looking at my own post I just realized something. Why the hell India designed a baby boomer of just 6k ton for SSBN while Russian were suggestingg on bigger sub design?

The answer becomes clear it was not just to move gradually up the ladder but they had SSN program already in mind..

It was clear to naval planners that SSN will surely follow SSBN program and Arihant design at 6k is optimal compromise.

On one hand SSBN program will carry on with bigger designs in follow on subs on the other hand base design of Arihant can be easily modified for SSN of around same displacement.

Our SSN might come faster than anticipated.
More powerful reactor is already under development at Barc.

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IndianHawk

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We need many more subs than what France and UK together operate. So it will be both SSK and SSN .

SSK are cheaper and yet quieter than nuke subs.
We need 24 SSK as of now. And we'll keep adding SSN once we start inducting them. We won't stop at mere 6 . They will be re ordered in batches with improvements. But it will be indegenios design and development.
Baracuda class is 5k ton so making a similar SSN won't be much difficult for India as Arihant has 6k displacement. So Arihant design itself can be modified to make a SSN of 5k displacement. What we do need is more powerful nuke reactor. Which anyway nobody will give so indegenios it will be.


Where we can actually copy France is nuclear powered aircraft carrier. How much did de Gaulle cost to french? And how much will cost to remove the nuke reactor when it retires?

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Correction : the plan till 2030 is to have 18 ssk and 6 SSN of 6000ton approx but with more powerful reactor and capacity to dive much deeper than Arihant class.

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Vijyes

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That is absurd. You don't need anymore SSKs. You need to spend all of the resources on nuclear subs. You don't see France with any SSKs. It is time India steps up to the plate and claims her rightful place next to France... replacing UK in the P5.
We don't want all nuclear submarine. Nuclear submarine is difficult to start after repairs. Nuclear submarine has higher noise. Considering that Indian zone is mainly in IOR, which holds the biggest oil reserves, it makes no sense to have nuclear submarine in large numbers. Nuclear submarine may have more endurance but it is noisier and needs long repairs for minor damage. SSK, on the other hand, can be repaired quickly and are very stealthy to tackle any threats in IOR and deny IOR access for any enemy ship
 

Vijyes

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Russia wants to build P75I submarines, says India needs better vessels than Scorpene

Russia is eyeing building the next generation of conventional submarines for the Indian Navy, a mega contract worth about Rs 80,000 crore, with Moscow pitching in strongly for a joint design and production under a government-to-government agreement.

Russia is among the four countries that have responded to the Request for Information (RFI) with regard to the much-touted Project 75 India (P75I), which envisages the construction of six new conventional (diesel-electric) submarines with Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP) that will allow the vessels to stay underwater for a longer duration.

The others in the running are France, Germany and Sweden. Russia’s proposal will hinge on its pitch joint design of the submarine and that that “India needs better submarines than the French-made Scorpene,” which the Indian Navy is in the process of inducting.



“We have developed new AIP technology and we are offering India the choice from the best of the two we have developed,” Alexei Rakhmanov, president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) told a select group of Indian journalists here. “We believe that an inter-government agreement can be a good route for the construction of the submarines.”

The USC is the Russian umbrella organisation for shipyards and design bureaus.

With the P751 project mandating that the submarines being built in an Indian shipyard, the Russians are in talks with both L&T shipyard or state-run Hindustan Shipyard Limited as possible partners.

The P75I is being implemented under the strategic partnership model under which the Indian government will select the Indian shipyard and also the OEM. “We are ready to work with any shipyard selected by the Indian government. We are in talks with L&T and the Hindustan Shipyards,” Rakhmanov said.

The P75I project is part of a 30-year submarine building plan that ends in 2030. As part of this plan, India hopes to build 24 submarines as an effective deterrent against China and Pakistan.


Russia has offered to jointly design the submarine ::

Rakhmanov said they have offered to jointly design and build the next generation of submarines in India. Russia wants to use its new Lada class submarines (its export version is called Amur), being built by the Admiralty Shipyard, as the prototype for the design and construction of the new submarines.

“The submarine we are talking about is 4+ generation that has a unique set of communication, weapons and comfort for the crew,” he said. “The current Scorpene does not match it in at least two out of these three counts.”

He added that it is the perfect time to develop the joint platform which can be jointly marketed too.

Russia’s biggest design bureau for conventional submarines — the Rubin Design Bureau — said that at present, there is no submarine in the world which matches all the specifications laid down by the Indian Navy.

“Indian Navy deserves better submarines than the Scorpene submarines. The stealth, communication and the weapons capability of the Scorpene submarines are very much inferior to the Amur,” Andrew Baranov, Deputy CEO of the Rubin Design Bureau, said.

He pointed out that the Scorpene submarines, designed towards the end of the last century, are only built for export and that the French Navy itself does not operate it.

We believe that Amur is an advanced conventional submarine that is capable of fulfilling any requirement of the Indian Navy from the conventional submarines, he said.

“The Indian Navy, however, has its own specific requirement and hence we have said that P 75I is a project that has to be designed afresh and made,” he said. “The prototype for this, however, will be the Amur. Hence the experience gained on Amur will be transferred to this product.”


Russia confident of bagging project ::

The Admiralty Shipyard that has supplied 16 submarines to India including the first the country ever operated — the Foxtrot class of submarines inducted in 1966 — is optimistic about bagging the new contract.

“The Amur is one of the most up to date submarines in the world and some of the technical solutions have no peers across the globe,” Baranov said. “For example, its acoustic search and acoustic acquisition are unmatchable at present. It has quite a long cycle of autonomous operation though it deploys standard diesel with acid cells.”

“The equipment fitted on board uses quite small of power and it allows to considerately enlarge the cycle of autonomous operation,” Andrey A. Veselov, deputy director general for military and technical cooperation at the Admiralty Shipyard, said.
 

Armand2REP

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Russia[ says India needs better submarines than Scorpene
The day Russia has a better submarine than Scorpene to offer India is the day they can talk. The Amur that can't make half speed doesn't qualify. :laugh:
 

Holy Triad

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Russia wants to build P75I submarines, says India needs better vessels than Scorpene

Russia is eyeing building the next generation of conventional submarines for the Indian Navy, a mega contract worth about Rs 80,000 crore, with Moscow pitching in strongly for a joint design and production under a government-to-government agreement.

Russia is among the four countries that have responded to the Request for Information (RFI) with regard to the much-touted Project 75 India (P75I), which envisages the construction of six new conventional (diesel-electric) submarines with Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP) that will allow the vessels to stay underwater for a longer duration.

The others in the running are France, Germany and Sweden. Russia’s proposal will hinge on its pitch joint design of the submarine and that that “India needs better submarines than the French-made Scorpene,” which the Indian Navy is in the process of inducting.



“We have developed new AIP technology and we are offering India the choice from the best of the two we have developed,” Alexei Rakhmanov, president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) told a select group of Indian journalists here. “We believe that an inter-government agreement can be a good route for the construction of the submarines.”

The USC is the Russian umbrella organisation for shipyards and design bureaus.

With the P751 project mandating that the submarines being built in an Indian shipyard, the Russians are in talks with both L&T shipyard or state-run Hindustan Shipyard Limited as possible partners.

The P75I is being implemented under the strategic partnership model under which the Indian government will select the Indian shipyard and also the OEM. “We are ready to work with any shipyard selected by the Indian government. We are in talks with L&T and the Hindustan Shipyards,” Rakhmanov said.

The P75I project is part of a 30-year submarine building plan that ends in 2030. As part of this plan, India hopes to build 24 submarines as an effective deterrent against China and Pakistan.


Russia has offered to jointly design the submarine ::

Rakhmanov said they have offered to jointly design and build the next generation of submarines in India. Russia wants to use its new Lada class submarines (its export version is called Amur), being built by the Admiralty Shipyard, as the prototype for the design and construction of the new submarines.

“The submarine we are talking about is 4+ generation that has a unique set of communication, weapons and comfort for the crew,” he said. “The current Scorpene does not match it in at least two out of these three counts.”

He added that it is the perfect time to develop the joint platform which can be jointly marketed too.

Russia’s biggest design bureau for conventional submarines — the Rubin Design Bureau — said that at present, there is no submarine in the world which matches all the specifications laid down by the Indian Navy.

“Indian Navy deserves better submarines than the Scorpene submarines. The stealth, communication and the weapons capability of the Scorpene submarines are very much inferior to the Amur,” Andrew Baranov, Deputy CEO of the Rubin Design Bureau, said.

He pointed out that the Scorpene submarines, designed towards the end of the last century, are only built for export and that the French Navy itself does not operate it.

We believe that Amur is an advanced conventional submarine that is capable of fulfilling any requirement of the Indian Navy from the conventional submarines, he said.

“The Indian Navy, however, has its own specific requirement and hence we have said that P 75I is a project that has to be designed afresh and made,” he said. “The prototype for this, however, will be the Amur. Hence the experience gained on Amur will be transferred to this product.”


Russia confident of bagging project ::

The Admiralty Shipyard that has supplied 16 submarines to India including the first the country ever operated — the Foxtrot class of submarines inducted in 1966 — is optimistic about bagging the new contract.

“The Amur is one of the most up to date submarines in the world and some of the technical solutions have no peers across the globe,” Baranov said. “For example, its acoustic search and acoustic acquisition are unmatchable at present. It has quite a long cycle of autonomous operation though it deploys standard diesel with acid cells.”

“The equipment fitted on board uses quite small of power and it allows to considerately enlarge the cycle of autonomous operation,” Andrey A. Veselov, deputy director general for military and technical cooperation at the Admiralty Shipyard, said.
I was expecting this type(that ruski tech is supeeeeeerior) of reporting for a while now...


Now, I guess our touring journos properly "inspected" and "satisfied" with russian tech:biggrin2:

I just hope that they remember, the moskova hotelrooms have spycams:bounce:
 

Narasimh

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But in the submarine business isn't Russia superior indeed? Why do their subs send chills down the spine of US Navy
 

uoftotaku

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But in the submarine business isn't Russia superior indeed? Why do their subs send chills down the spine of US Navy
They used to send chills during the Cold War when the US couldn't get sufficient information from behind the Iron Curtain. However that fear turned slowly to derision once the truth of the matter became apparent. During the 80's the US knew for certain that Russian subs where far inferior to what they had. Only the appearance of the Akula gave a brief jolt but that too passed. Once the USSR collapsed then the entire illusion came down. In the modern context the Russians are still technology wise building 90's era machinery and 80's era electronics in their subs which is far behind anything the US has. It is known fact for eg that the single Akula III sub is the ONLY Russian sub currently on par with the 688-i Los Angeles class subs on noise levels, none of the rest get close. Mind you...the Americans are retiring that class now so that should tell you where the Russians are tech wise. Keep in mind also that through the cold war the French were actually widely acknowledged as having the best sonar tech...even today the worlds benchmark underwater sonar the Type 2076 is made by Thales
 

Vijyes

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They used to send chills during the Cold War when the US couldn't get sufficient information from behind the Iron Curtain. However that fear turned slowly to derision once the truth of the matter became apparent. During the 80's the US knew for certain that Russian subs where far inferior to what they had. Only the appearance of the Akula gave a brief jolt but that too passed. Once the USSR collapsed then the entire illusion came down. In the modern context the Russians are still technology wise building 90's era machinery and 80's era electronics in their subs which is far behind anything the US has. It is known fact for eg that the single Akula III sub is the ONLY Russian sub currently on par with the 688-i Los Angeles class subs on noise levels, none of the rest get close. Mind you...the Americans are retiring that class now so that should tell you where the Russians are tech wise. Keep in mind also that through the cold war the French were actually widely acknowledged as having the best sonar tech...even today the worlds benchmark underwater sonar the Type 2076 is made by Thales
This is called as lost decade by Russians where the Technology stagnated due yo disintegration of USSR and scattering of the technology manufacturing bases across the states. But, Russia has started to develop their Technology since 2000 and has succeeded in doing so. As of now it has good Technology. The ones you are referring to are all built in 1990s and either completed in 1990s or halted and restarted in 2000s. The newer models have advanced electronics and other capabilities.

It is not that USA Technology advances rapidly that they change the submarine design. USA simply wants to try out new design and test them for their efficacy. Interpreting it as if some generational leap happened is absurd. USA makes only nuclear submarines and have no diesel submarine designs. Their requirements are different from Indian or Russian. It is wrong to compare design that way
 

vampyrbladez

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They used to send chills during the Cold War when the US couldn't get sufficient information from behind the Iron Curtain. However that fear turned slowly to derision once the truth of the matter became apparent. During the 80's the US knew for certain that Russian subs where far inferior to what they had. Only the appearance of the Akula gave a brief jolt but that too passed. Once the USSR collapsed then the entire illusion came down. In the modern context the Russians are still technology wise building 90's era machinery and 80's era electronics in their subs which is far behind anything the US has. It is known fact for eg that the single Akula III sub is the ONLY Russian sub currently on par with the 688-i Los Angeles class subs on noise levels, none of the rest get close. Mind you...the Americans are retiring that class now so that should tell you where the Russians are tech wise. Keep in mind also that through the cold war the French were actually widely acknowledged as having the best sonar tech...even today the worlds benchmark underwater sonar the Type 2076 is made by Thales
Go checkout the Yasen and Oscar Class.
 

uoftotaku

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This is called as lost decade by Russians where the Technology stagnated due yo disintegration of USSR and scattering of the technology manufacturing bases across the states. But, Russia has started to develop their Technology since 2000 and has succeeded in doing so. As of now it has good Technology. The ones you are referring to are all built in 1990s and either completed in 1990s or halted and restarted in 2000s. The newer models have advanced electronics and other capabilities.

It is not that USA Technology advances rapidly that they change the submarine design. USA simply wants to try out new design and test them for their efficacy. Interpreting it as if some generational leap happened is absurd. USA makes only nuclear submarines and have no diesel submarine designs. Their requirements are different from Indian or Russian. It is wrong to compare design that way
Your perspective of lost decade would be correct if the technology was on par in the 1980s and stagnated after that. However in reality the Soviets were behind the curve all the way from the 1970s onwards and kept falling further behind. The fall of the USSR only laid bare this huge gap and the insurmountable challenge the Soviets had to actually be on par with the USN. Regarding the SSN vs SSK debate, yes the Soviets kept the SSK alive and advanced in that tech but are still short of equivalent Western tech. Ask any IN officer about performance of Sishkumar vs Sindhugosh and you might understand

Go checkout the Yasen and Oscar Class.
Yasen is already obsolete. Yasen started in 1990s but stalled due to lack of funds. They completed the 1st in class out of desperation but in tech terms it's somewhere around Los Angeles class. Even they themselves have admitted that Yasen is obsolete by only building 1 hull...the follow on's are all different designs designated Yasen-M / Graney which have significant updates putting them somewhere above 688-i spec but still short of Seawolf and Virginia classes.

Oscars are nothing special. Gigantic, noisy, expensive and single purpose beasts they are vestiges of a different era. If they were any this special then Yasen would never be built and they would pump out more Akula derivatives
 

Vijyes

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Your perspective of lost decade would be correct if the technology was on par in the 1980s and stagnated after that. However in reality the Soviets were behind the curve all the way from the 1970s onwards and kept falling further behind. The fall of the USSR only laid bare this huge gap and the insurmountable challenge the Soviets had to actually be on par with the USN. Regarding the SSN vs SSK debate, yes the Soviets kept the SSK alive and advanced in that tech but are still short of equivalent Western tech. Ask any IN officer about performance of Sishkumar vs Sindhugosh and you might understand
USSR did lose some advantage over USA when USA semiconductor grew in 1970s while USSR semiconductor technology didn't grow as fast. But even then, the difference was not too much. Indian Kilo Class submarine works very well and have no operational deficiency compared to German shishumar ones.
 

vampyrbladez

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Yasen is already obsolete. Yasen started in 1990s but stalled due to lack of funds. They completed the 1st in class out of desperation but in tech terms it's somewhere around Los Angeles class. Even they themselves have admitted that Yasen is obsolete by only building 1 hull...the follow on's are all different designs designated Yasen-M / Graney which have significant updates putting them somewhere above 688-i spec but still short of Seawolf and Virginia classes.
From the article I attached below.

As submarine expert H.I. Sutton, author of World Submarines: Covert Shores Recognition Guide, points out, a Type 855 submarine armed with Kalibr missiles “could target East Coast U.S. cities from the mid-Atlantic.

Sutton believes the hype around the Yasen class is broadly justified. “By all accounts Severodvinsk Class is a very stealthy and potent threat,” he said.

“The Severodvinsk is in many ways Russia’s equivalent to the US Navy’s Seawolf Class,” Sutton explained, referring to the U.S. Navy’s large, deep diving attack submarines built during the late 1990s and early 2000s.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russia-s-newest-yasen-class-attack-submarines-are-the-e-1829644713

Sometimes capacity and stealth is better than just stealth.

US Navy returning to expensive Cold War Seawolf-like sub hunters

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/...pensive-coldwar-seawolf-like-sub-hunters.html


USNI News was one of the first to spot that the Congressional Budget Office explored the Navy’s shifting priorities in its analysis of the service’s latest shipbuilding plan for the 2019 through 2048 Fiscal Years, which it released on Oct. 18, 2018. Purchases of the Virginia-class attack submarine are supposed to end in 2033, after which the Navy expects to begin buying new boats to succeed that design at a rate of two every year through 2048. This would result in a fleet of 30 of the new subs, presently referred to simply as SSN(X).

“I think Russian submarines today are perhaps some of the most silent and lethal in the world, with the exception of our own – I think we still in the United States Navy hold the edge,” U.S. Navy Admiral James Foggo, who presently serves as the head of U.S. Naval Forces Europe and NATO’s Allied Joint Force Command Naples, said in an official podcast on Sept. 30, 2018.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...bmarines-to-challenge-russian-chinese-threats





Oscars are nothing special. Gigantic, noisy, expensive and single purpose beasts they are vestiges of a different era. If they were any this special then Yasen would never be built and they would pump out more Akula derivatives
Oscar Class is more of a mothership design than a pure SSN in terms of the thought process behind it's deployments.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ubmarines-armed-nuclear-drone-torpedoes-64776
 

vampyrbladez

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BONUS :

How the Swede cucks trolled the USN with their Gotland Class submarine.

as part of a war game pitting a carrier task force including numerous antisubmarine escorts against HSMS Gotland, a small Swedish diesel-powered submarine displacing 1,600 tons. Yet despite making multiple attacks runs on the Reagan, the Gotland was never detected.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...h-submarines-are-so-lethal-they-sank-us-18383


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...nes-navy-fears-swedish-stealth-sub-most-35242
 

binayak95

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Oscars are nothing special. Gigantic, noisy, expensive and single purpose beasts they are vestiges of a different era. If they were any this special then Yasen would never be built and they would pump out more Akula derivatives
not to mention poorly maintained and ill trained crew. Kursk, anyone?
 

Knowitall

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It's a well known fact that US navy hypes up russian submarines to secure higher funding. They are way ahead of russia but they just want more money.
 

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