IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[shiphone]

no.
that seems to be the second one of P15B--INS Mormugao

 

[IndianHawk]

India must now build own conventional submarine. Use Arihant class designing experience and Scorpion manufacturing capabilities and build our own conventional submarine. That should be project 75i. No more import of submarine. If we can build 6000ton nuke boomer and preparing to build nuke ssn then we can surely build 2000ton class conventional submarine with aip and cruise missile cells.

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

India must now build own conventional submarine. Use Arihant class designing experience and Scorpion manufacturing capabilities and build our own conventional submarine. That should be project 75i. No more import of submarine. If we can build 6000ton nuke boomer and preparing to build nuke ssn then we can surely build 2000ton class conventional submarine with aip and cruise missile cells.

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We will build submarines on our own if none agrees for TOT. TOT is a guarantee of technology and over time, India will become independent. As of now, idea is to buy foreign submarine design with the condition that the design will be completely owned by India and India can manufacture unlimited submarines once the 6 submarine contract of P75I is completed.

There are some design risks as making submarine with AIP, missiles etc will need some design change from scorpene. So, it may cause delays. India currently has enough money to spare and hence prefers to have this risk free path. If none agrees, then India will make its own submarines.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

India must now build own conventional submarine. Use Arihant class designing experience and Scorpion manufacturing capabilities and build our own conventional submarine. That should be project 75i. No more import of submarine. If we can build 6000ton nuke boomer and preparing to build nuke ssn then we can surely build 2000ton class conventional submarine with aip and cruise missile cells.

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Given the lower numbers, we want our submarines to have a technological edge over Chinese submarines, especially in silence, detection capabilities, and safety measures. That still requires TOT from the West. If we start making one of our own now, it will be decent at most, but won't give the IN any edge over the Chinese submarines.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Given the lower numbers, we want our submarines to have a technological edge over Chinese submarines, especially in silence, detection capabilities, and safety measures. That still requires TOT from the West. If we start making one of our own now, it will be decent at most, but won't give the IN any edge over the Chinese submarines.

We have scorpene and technology from Akula for that. We however, don't have ability to make bigger submarine with AIP, missile launcher submarine design. The only thing here is that technology development has no guarantees. It may simply miss and cause delay. So, only for guaranteed manufacturing ability, we go for TOT agreement.

France first assess whether India has the technological ability and agrees for such TOT only if it finds that India has 60% or more chance of making it indigenously if France refuses.

 

[IndianHawk]

Given the lower numbers, we want our submarines to have a technological edge over Chinese submarines, especially in silence, detection capabilities, and safety measures. That still requires TOT from the West. If we start making one of our own now, it will be decent at most, but won't give the IN any edge over the Chinese submarines.

This is the same argument which hampers development of fighter jets. If we won't build indegenios equipment in peacetime how will it improves overtime.
Some day you have to build the first one. And we are building nuclear ssbm and designing nuclear ssn as of today.

As our economy and budget will grow numbers too will grow.

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[IndianHawk]

We will build submarines on our own if none agrees for TOT. TOT is a guarantee of technology and over time, India will become independent. As of now, idea is to buy foreign submarine design with the condition that the design will be completely owned by India and India can manufacture unlimited submarines once the 6 submarine contract of P75I is completed.

There are some design risks as making submarine with AIP, missiles etc will need some design change from scorpene. So, it may cause delays. India currently has enough money to spare and hence prefers to have this risk free path. If none agrees, then India will make its own submarines.

Isn't tot from Scorpion deal enough for a decent indegenios sub? After project 75i will be wait for project 80 tot. These are mere excuses.

We have naval design bureau. We have indegenios design ( Arihant class , upcoming ssn) . We can design an ssk.

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[Armand2REP]

Isn't tot from Scorpion deal enough for a decent indegenios sub? After project 75i will be wait for project 80 tot. These are mere excuses.

We have naval design bureau. We have indegenios design ( Arihant class , upcoming ssn) . We can design an ssk.

I am sure you can, the question is would it be quiet enough to justify the expense.

The Chinese go full throttle on nuclear submarines even though they are loud enough to alter the migration patterns of dolphins = money wasted.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Isn't tot from Scorpion deal enough for a decent indegenios sub? After project 75i will be wait for project 80 tot. These are mere excuses.

We have naval design bureau. We have indegenios design ( Arihant class , upcoming ssn) . We can design an ssk.

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We have enough technology. But we don't have enough time to design. We don't want to risk failure as we already lag behind others in submarine construction. So if France or Russia doesn't give 100% TOT, we will be able to make it with some possible delays but with 100% TOT we can make it without delay. No, once we make p75i, then we will be having a base design and we can be tension free to experiment

 

[IndianHawk]

I am sure you can, the question is would it be quiet enough to justify the expense.

The Chinese go full throttle on nuclear submarines even though they are loud enough to alter the migration patterns of dolphins = money wasted.

Nope Chinese numbers put pressure on US calculations. And nuclear sub with their endurance can anywhere.

If India keeps buying costly foreign subs then it will always operate limited number of subs .
While Chinese will start building better and quiter subs as they gain experience in their own design and manufacturing.

There is no alternative to building your own.


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[IndianHawk]

We have enough technology. But we don't have enough time to design. We don't want to risk failure as we already lag behind others in submarine construction. So if France or Russia doesn't give 100% TOT, we will be able to make it with some possible delays but with 100% TOT we can make it without delay. No, once we make p75i, then we will be having a base design and we can be tension free to experiment

We have enough time if you take in account the time it will take to actually award any contract in p75i project. Going by our babudome it can easily take a decade if not more .
If we want to minimise the risk then order more Scorpion itself. Order 3 more Scorpion and start designing 10 desi ssk.



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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

We have enough time if you take in account the time it will take to actually award any contract in p75i project. Going by our babudome it can easily take a decade if not more .
If we want to minimise the risk then order more Scorpion itself. Order 3 more Scorpion and start designing 10 desi ssk.



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P75I states clearly that 100% IP of design will be in Indian hand and unlimited production rights with India So, either foreign countries (France/Russia) will give tis or India will design on its own. There is no Babudom. The politicians decide the fate. Modi-RSS will not do injustice with defence technology

 

[bose]

P75I will take time to productionize after clearing all types of hurdles ... We should not stop the production of the current Scorpeane production line ...

We should order another 6 subs with API and other stealthy features ...

 

[Armand2REP]

Nope Chinese numbers put pressure on US calculations. And nuclear sub with their endurance can anywhere.

If India keeps buying costly foreign subs then it will always operate limited number of subs .
While Chinese will start building better and quiter subs as they gain experience in their own design and manufacturing.

There is no alternative to building your own.

Are you willing to give up government services in order to fund it? China is currently sitting on 300% debt to GDP wasting money on nuke subs they can't hide and carriers that don't have usable fighters.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Are you willing to give up government services in order to fund it? China is currently sitting on 300% debt to GDP wasting money on nuke subs they can't hide and carriers that don't have usable fighters.

We are not interested in being perfect accountants but actually getting results. So, 300% debt which is internally handled is not a big deal. Only external debt matters. Defence is also a government service. So, replacing one government service with another is acceptable

 

[IndianHawk]

Are you willing to give up government services in order to fund it? China is currently sitting on 300% debt to GDP wasting money on nuke subs they can't hide and carriers that don't have usable fighters.

We are not going to build 60 subs. 10 desi subs will cost as much as 6 Scorpion or even less.
Even with 6 more Scorpion or p75i we won't break the bank.

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[Armand2REP]

We are not interested in being perfect accountants but actually getting results. So, 300% debt which is internally handled is not a big deal. Only external debt matters. Defence is also a government service. So, replacing one government service with another is acceptable

China has over $2.2 trillion in external debt denominated in USD. That is twice as much as the US bonds they hold. China used to be a nation of savers, now their household debt as % of GDP is higher than the US. At 300% debt to GDP they are 100% over Japan. You don't even realise how high their debt mountain has reached. You don't want that for India, it isn't going to be a lost decade, it will be another Chinese century of humiliation.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

China has over $2.2 trillion in external debt denominated in USD. That is twice as much as the US bonds they hold. China used to be a nation of savers, now their household debt as % of GDP is higher than the US. At 300% debt to GDP they are 100% over Japan. You don't even realise how high their debt mountain has reached. You don't want that for India, it isn't going to be a lost decade, it will be another Chinese century of humiliation.

China is a net creditor with 1.5 trillion dollar credit externally. So, it does not matter what its external debt is.

 

[Shashwat]

no.
that seems to be the second one of P15B--INS Mormugao

View attachment 34787

Na, the destroyer during the launch of Vela is Visakhapatnam and not Mormugao. Some image had the banner clearly mentioning the name.

 

[no smoking]

China has over $2.2 trillion in external debt denominated in USD. That is twice as much as the US bonds they hold.

In the meantime, they have $3 trillion dollars of foreign reserve.

China used to be a nation of savers, now their household debt as % of GDP is higher than the US.

Wrong, the Chinese household debt rate was 51% in Q3 18 and USA was 75%.

https://www.iif.com/Portals/0/Files/Global Debt Monitor_January_vf.pdf

At 300% debt to GDP they are 100% over Japan.

Wrong again. The 300% is the total social debt which includes everything. It was 100% over Japanese government debt alone which is 223% of GDP. The total social debt of Japan is 537% of GDP.

https://www.iif.com/Portals/0/Files/Global Debt Monitor_January_vf.pdf

Now, let's check what France debt, I can only find 2017 figures. Since, 2018 could only be worse:

Private: 257.13%
https://tradingeconomics.com/france/private-debt-to-gdp
Government: 97%
https://commodity.com/debt-clock/france/
Total debt of 2017: 354.13%

Don't forget another big factor: trade balance.
Chinese saw their largest trade surplus in $351.76 billion.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/14/chi...mber-trade-exports-imports-trade-balance.html

In 2017, France witnessed the $88.97 billion deficit.
https://countryeconomy.com/trade/balance/france