IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[Vijyes]

We can generate hydrogen on board via chemical reaction but need to carry oxygen in liquid form.

How can you generate Hydrogen on board? Are you talking of methanol to hydrogen synthesis?

 

[uoftotaku]

This P75I must be last submarine class that procured from other country.
For future submarines..
We need is a good AIP solution and most of the sensors either can be sourced or
home made.
Most importantly Lithium battery
Coming to AIP there are two questions that must be answered.
1.Do we need a PEM solution which needs oxygen and hydrogen on board.
We can generate hydrogen on board via chemical reaction but need to carry oxygen in liquid form.
2.Or a stirling engines which only needs oxygen that can be carried in liquid form.

We need to work on chemical reaction that generates oxygen on board rather than carrying in liquid form.

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The long term future of AIP is basically going to be a revolution in battery technology. There are some promising breakthroughs currently being tested withe carbon based battery which can provide sufficient charge to last for an entire 30-45 day submarine mission.

The Japanese have already operationalised a nex-gen Li-Ion battery pack with sufficient power capacity to replace the Sterling module in their upcoming evolved-Soryu hulls and follow-on class. Koreans have also come up with a new Li-ion battery pack by Samsung for their Batch III hulls.

So it is definitely within realm of possibility that we will see the end of traditional AIP (fuel cell, methane, ethanol, oxygen based systems that exist today) by the time P-75i is complete. The next generation of submarines worldwide will be pure battery powered just like the very first J.P Holland built boats

 

[uoftotaku]

How can you generate Hydrogen on board? Are you talking of methanol to hydrogen synthesis?

Simple electrolysis reaction of seawater generates Hydrogen and Oxygen. The method is quite simple (can be done at home) but both major products are both dangerous and difficult to store and contain

 

[WolfPack86]

According to reports, MOD has issued a tender worth over Rs 2000 crore for buying around 100 heavyweight torpedoes for Kalvari Class submarines.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

According to reports, MOD has issued a tender worth over Rs 2000 crore for buying around 100 heavyweight torpedoes for Kalvari Class submarines.

Wonder why no one has made next gen AI infused torpedoes yet.

 

[uoftotaku]

Wonder why no one has made next gen AI infused torpedoes yet.

The F21 is pretty close to being AI guided.

That being said the limiting factor isn't the torpedo itself but detection and guidance. You can make the torpedo as intelligent as possible but as long as we can't move beyond sonar for detecting and tracking a target it won't matter.

 

[Vijyes]

Simple electrolysis reaction of seawater generates Hydrogen and Oxygen. The method is quite simple (can be done at home) but both major products are both dangerous and difficult to store and contain

The point here is that if the electricity generated from fuel cell used to generate Hydrogen, then what is the point of the electricity at all?

If we are splitting water with electricity, 2e might as well use the same electricity to power the submarine. Why waste electricity like this? So, electrolysis is not an option. Methanol can be used to generate hydrogen by steam treatment at 300 celsius and that is a good way as no electricity demand for electrolysis is there

 

[uoftotaku]

The point here is that if the electricity generated from fuel cell used to generate Hydrogen, then what is the point of the electricity at all?

If we are splitting water with electricity, 2e might as well use the same electricity to power the submarine. Why waste electricity like this? So, electrolysis is not an option. Methanol can be used to generate hydrogen by steam treatment at 300 celsius and that is a good way as no electricity demand for electrolysis is there

I never suggested it was practical to use. Otherwise the whole world's sub fleets would be using this method! Free unlimited fuel source that they are swimming through lol

Methanol to hydrogen : well thats exactly what MESMA does although they use Ethanol as a source since Methanol is toxic and storage on sub is hazardous

 

[Enquirer]

This P75I must be last submarine class that procured from other country.
For future submarines..
We need is a good AIP solution and most of the sensors either can be sourced or
home made.
Most importantly Lithium battery
Coming to AIP there are two questions that must be answered.
1.Do we need a PEM solution which needs oxygen and hydrogen on board.
We can generate hydrogen on board via chemical reaction but need to carry oxygen in liquid form.
2.Or a stirling engines which only needs oxygen that can be carried in liquid form.

We need to work on chemical reaction that generates oxygen on board rather than carrying in liquid form.

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

Firstly, Stirling engines are already passe wrt submarines. AIP is currently the reigning alternative. However with rapid changes in the energy densities & costs of the batteries, AIP (chemical based) will be gone in next generation.

In the next 5 years itself they're talking about 500 KWhr batteries - produced on large scale; the current breed of mass produced batteries with 250 KWhr are already a great candidate for submarines (note that I am using batteries as generic and not specifically to Li-ion......which may change to Lithium metal batteries or completely move to graphene based ultracapacitors...)

 

[Enquirer]

How can you generate Hydrogen on board? Are you talking of methanol to hydrogen synthesis?

Simple electrolysis reaction of seawater generates Hydrogen and Oxygen. The method is quite simple (can be done at home) but both major products are both dangerous and difficult to store and contain

Electrolysis of sea water already takes place inside a submarine...............how else will they generate Oxygen for the sailors????

 

[uoftotaku]

Electrolysis of sea water already takes place inside a submarine...............how else will they generate Oxygen for the sailors????

Yes. But the OBOGS discharges the H2 back into the sea rather than storing it and the O2 is also released as a gas rather than having to be liquefied and stored. If intention is to use the products as a fuel source then you would need to add cryogenic cooling and pressurization as well separate high safety storage tanks. That step alone would make the whole process "energy deficient"

This is the reason that Type 214 and Soryu (whose AIP systems use liquid H2 and liquid O2) both only carry limited reserves of the substances which are loaded from shore facilities rather than having electrolysis re-gen systems on board

 

[Vijyes]

Electrolysis of sea water already takes place inside a submarine...............how else will they generate Oxygen for the sailors????

They generate oxygen in limited quantity only sufficient for people to survive. The oxygen needed to burn fuel is 100s of time more than that. It is one thing to get limited quantity of oxygen for breathing and another thing to use that for burning fuel

 

[tharun]

How can you generate Hydrogen on board? Are you talking of methanol to hydrogen synthesis?

DRDO AIP does the same thing using PAFC phosphoric acid fuel cell.

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[tharun]

The oxygen carried for AIP is in cryogenic form. It is not generated on board for aip.
On board oxygen is generated only for life systems.

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[BON PLAN]

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...e-same-sub-but-theyll-be-powered-differently/

A view of what can be P75I ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Another view of what can be P75I ......

 

[Prashant12]

Second Scorpene submarine expected to be commissioned into service by September-October: Navy chief

INS Khanderi, the second Kalvari-class Scorpene submarine that has superior stealth and the ability to launch a crippling attack with torpedoes as well as tube-launched anti-ship missiles whilst underwater or on surface, was launched at the Mazgaon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai in January 2017.


India's second Kalvari-class Scorpene submarine is expected to be commissioned into service by September-October this year, Navy chief Admiral Karambir Singh said on Thursday.

He was interacting with reporters on the sidelines of an international seminar on shipbuilding here.

INS Khanderi, the second Kalvari-class Scorpene submarine that has superior stealth and the ability to launch a crippling attack with torpedoes as well as tube-launched anti-ship missiles whilst underwater or on surface, was launched at the Mazgaon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai in January 2017.

For submarines like EKMs (Russian made Kilo-class), the Navy is going for MRLC (Medium Refit with Life Certification), he said in response to a question.

"For Scorpenes, we are moving well. The first one is already is service, and the second one is expected to be commissioned by September-October of this year," the Navy chief told reporters.

The state-of-the-art features of this Kalvari-class Scorpene submarine include superior stealth and the ability to launch a crippling attack on the enemy using precision guided weapon.

The attack can be launched with torpedoes, as well as tube-launched anti-ship missiles, whilst underwater or on surface. The stealth features will give it an invulnerability, unmatched by many submarines.

The submarine is designed to operate in all theatres, including the tropics. All means and communications are provided to ensure interoperability with other components of a naval task force.

It can undertake multifarious types of missions typically undertaken by any modern submarine, i.e anti-surface warfare, anti-submarine warfare, intelligence gathering, mine laying and area surveillance.


Admiral Singh has said that negotiations are proceeding on the procurement of naval multi-role helicopters and the contract could be finalised soon. "The LOR (letter of request) and LOA (letter of acceptance) procedures are on and we should be ready by the end of the year," he said at the sidelines of the FICCI seminar.

These helicopters will have the capability to engage in anti-submarine warfare. MRHs are an integral part of the frontline warships such as aircraft carriers, destroyers, frigates and corvettes.

On Project 75 and Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH), he said these two strategic partnership models are "extremely important to us".


https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ptember-october-navy-chief-1573572-2019-07-25

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Why are you people discussing AIP. We can buy any submarine but AIP in it will be drdo one.
As naval chief said this is last order to a foreign company and we will design our own afterwards. So we those technologies which we are not developed till now.

DRDO AIP is highly advance. Recent advancement in AIP and battery technology has improved the prowess of diesel electrical submarine by a great deal.

 

[BON PLAN]

Second Scorpene submarine expected to be commissioned into service by September-October: Navy chief

INS Khanderi, the second Kalvari-class Scorpene submarine that has superior stealth and the ability to launch a crippling attack with torpedoes as well as tube-launched anti-ship missiles whilst underwater or on surface, was launched at the Mazgaon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai in January 2017.


India's second Kalvari-class Scorpene submarine is expected to be commissioned into service by September-October this year, Navy chief Admiral Karambir Singh said on Thursday.

He was interacting with reporters on the sidelines of an international seminar on shipbuilding here.

INS Khanderi, the second Kalvari-class Scorpene submarine that has superior stealth and the ability to launch a crippling attack with torpedoes as well as tube-launched anti-ship missiles whilst underwater or on surface, was launched at the Mazgaon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai in January 2017.

For submarines like EKMs (Russian made Kilo-class), the Navy is going for MRLC (Medium Refit with Life Certification), he said in response to a question.

"For Scorpenes, we are moving well. The first one is already is service, and the second one is expected to be commissioned by September-October of this year," the Navy chief told reporters.

The state-of-the-art features of this Kalvari-class Scorpene submarine include superior stealth and the ability to launch a crippling attack on the enemy using precision guided weapon.

The attack can be launched with torpedoes, as well as tube-launched anti-ship missiles, whilst underwater or on surface. The stealth features will give it an invulnerability, unmatched by many submarines.

The submarine is designed to operate in all theatres, including the tropics. All means and communications are provided to ensure interoperability with other components of a naval task force.

It can undertake multifarious types of missions typically undertaken by any modern submarine, i.e anti-surface warfare, anti-submarine warfare, intelligence gathering, mine laying and area surveillance.


Admiral Singh has said that negotiations are proceeding on the procurement of naval multi-role helicopters and the contract could be finalised soon. "The LOR (letter of request) and LOA (letter of acceptance) procedures are on and we should be ready by the end of the year," he said at the sidelines of the FICCI seminar.

These helicopters will have the capability to engage in anti-submarine warfare. MRHs are an integral part of the frontline warships such as aircraft carriers, destroyers, frigates and corvettes.

On Project 75 and Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH), he said these two strategic partnership models are "extremely important to us".


https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ptember-october-navy-chief-1573572-2019-07-25

So it is the end of this false rumor about the noise of the sub....

 

[uoftotaku]

So it is the end of this false rumor about the noise of the sub....

I don't think anyone in the defense community takes desi media articles on defense seriously. The reporters have no credibility (except a couple of half knowledgeable fellows) and the media houses themselves all have their very well known political bias and pliability.

Remember how they tried to scupper Rafale with false story about Pak pilots flying the Qatar birds

All these vultures should just be ignored