Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by s_bman, Mar 1, 2009.
can you please post those 'neutral' reports............
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: UPDATE: The Dhruv Crash Investigation
Notwithstanding HAL chairman Ashok Naik's ill-advised claim to the press yesterday that he has received no formal communication about the Dhruv crash in Ecuador, a three-member expert team from HAL will fly to Ecuador this weekend to join the Accident Investigation Board. HAL currently has a ten-member team in Ecuador that is already assisting with the investigation. Things are at a very delicate stage right now.
The local Spanish daily El Universo has run a story with a headline suggesting that the country's Dhruvs could be returned to India. It appears that in the face of a torrent of media reports questioning the transparency of the Dhruv purchase, Ecuador's air force chief General Rodrigo Bohorquez held a press conference where he stated that if any problems were discovered in the helicopters, then HAL would have to either replace the equipment or refund the nation. The newspapers are also picking up on the fact that the Turbomeca engines were manufactured in 2007, whereas the choppers were made in 2008.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence
Hon Members, this is a sensitive subject. Please don't make any statement without backing it up with a source. Otherwise it is just a rumour.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: What Happened To The Dhruv In Ecuador?
The two Ecuadorian helicopter pilots Luis Armas and Ivan Abril who walked away almost unscathed from the dramatic crash of their Dhruv helicopter have been treated for minor injuries, and are to be discharged in a few days from a military hospital in Quito. They had a closer call than most do in helicopter accidents of this kind. While a very serious inquiry now stares HAL uncomfortably in the face, one fact is undeniable. The accident, like a previous one in November 2005 in which all six on board survived, establishes once again the remarkable crashworthiness of the ALH Dhruv. But that's not the point here. What's important is what went wrong at Quito's Mariscal Sucre airport. The facts as we know them right now are bare, notwithstanding the ready affirmation by Ecuadorian air force chief General Rodrigo Bohorquez, that the crash had taken place as a result of pilot error. Strangely, even Ecuador's defence minister Javier Ponce said in an interview to a local newspaper that all prima facie indications were that the pilot had "excessively manoeuvered" the chopper, leading to the accident. For starters, the helicopter is not serviceable -- it is beyond repair. It was the one of three Dhruvs flying in an arrow-head formation. Here's what we know so far, for the record:
Eyewitnesses, including some journalists, have testified to the Board of Inquiry that they saw a fire break out near the Dhruv's tail stem, after which the helicopter rolled abruptly to port 60-degrees and began losing altitude. At this point, the helicopter was about 300-metres from the airport's hangar area.
Ecuador's air chief General Rodrigo Bohorquez has been quoted as saying that the accident occured "because the turn was very long" and that the pilot "oversteered" the helicopter.
The pilot Luis Armas, who has 197 hours logged on the Dhruv, was trained in India in December 2008. Co-pilot Ivan Abril has logged 107 hours on the Dhruv so far.
According to an HAL official in Ecuador who spoke to me off the record, a few Ecuadorian newspapers have begun running opinion pieces questioning the Dhruv purchase from India. Some report that HAL was initially disqualified for not meeting certain technical requirements of Ecuador's air force. However, when General Rodrigo Bohorquez took charge of the service shortly thereafter, the decision was reportedly reversed despite the fact that the country's audit regulator had reportedly ordered the competition to be declared void and re-tendered, as the Dhruv had not met technical and financial requirements. They same reports suggest that the Indian government, through the Indian Ambassador in Quito, struck a deal with the country to be the launch customer in Latin America for the helicopter. The implicit suggestion in these reports appears to be that the Dhruv was unfairly chosen, and under the use of influence.
Both the air chief and defence minister of the country have said on record that the helicopters have been observed to have no technical faults.
The ten-member HAL team in Quito is assisting the Accident Investigation Board. HAL may send more engineers from its Rotory Wing Complex in Bangalore to Quito to assist the investigation.
It's bad. Media, be it Indian or any mans morons. Without going speculative they should wait for proper investigation to finish.
The local Spanish daily EL UNIVERSO translation:
The Air Force commander, Rodrigo Bohorquez, admitted yesterday that there are technical comments to the seven aircraft purchased by the SAF to the company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, India, and that the company is demanding compliance with the contract, awarded in 2008.
"During the review of the new contract is discovered. If it were a large failure and we can not really overcome it would have to repay (the helicopters) and enforce the security, "he said.
Among the observations made by a technical team from the institution states that the year of manufacture of the engines of French origin, was in 2007 and have a shelf life of 15 years. In addition to problems in the rotor blades.
According Bohorquez, Accident Investigation Board (IAEA), established to investigate the Indian Dhruv helicopter accident, which occurred last Tuesday at the airport in Quito, hosts must determine whether those comments. "It'sa matter of negotiating. If there is acceptance that the Board will require that we return the engine of 2008, like other components, "he said.
The Hindustan representative in Ecuador and President of the Company Sumila, Juan Cortez said the engines were manufactured by Turbomeca of France, a year ahead of helicopter construction in 2008, and the authorities of the FAE knew. "If the ruling is from the manufacturer, the company is required to replace equipment at no cost, and if it determines that it is a problem of failure of equipment, would be a responsibility of the Air Force.
He said that in the world are flying 120 Dhruv helicopters and Tuesday's crash is the third in the history of this fleet.
The first, in 2005, during a stunt for extreme maneuvers in India. The second, in flight, a problem in one of the tail rotor blades, also in India, but the plane managed to land.
According to Cortez, now, a total of 250 Dhruv helicopters are traded on the manufacturing process, 130 for the governments of India, Mauritania, Nepal and Israel. However, the website only listed as buyers armed forces of India and Ecuador.
Ecuador will purchase from Russia, two Mi-17
Defense Minister Javier Ponce Latin American country said today that Ecuador will buy Russia's two military-transport helicopter Mi-17 for $ 22 million.
The minister said a formal decision will be formalized during the visit beginning today, Ecuador's President Rafael Correa in Russia. "There is also the possibility of cooperation in the delivery of other vehicles for the armed forces, including air transport, trucks, buses," - he added, stressing that "Correa's visit to Russia is of fundamental importance for strengthening the capacity of the armed forces of Ecuador." "In addition, the air forces of the country have plans to expand the use of unmanned aerial vehicles and are interested in the acquisition of six aircraft, but not tactical, and strategic purpose," - said Ponce.
Itar-Tass earlier Correa on the eve of his official visit to Moscow, said that the purpose of his visit is the strengthening of bilateral ties and cooperation, including in the field of defense. " "Russia has rich experience in these areas and could refer to Ecuador part of their experience, because we plan to work on improving the efficiency of the armed forces of the country - continued the President. - We are not talking about the arms build-up of the Ecuadorian army, but the technique that we have no longer suitable for the purposes of meeting the challenges. "Sometimes a flight on the plane of our armed forces is comparable to suicide" - complained Correa.
Èçâåñòèÿ.Ðó: Ýêâàäîð çàêóïèò ó Ðîññèè äâà âåðòîëåòà Ìè-17
I wonder if this has anything to do with this debacle.
I do not understand why most of the fellow members are just,Pointing the failure of Dhruv... blan blan blan........
This is the main problem with our indians,we do not admire our products or do not keep the confidence in our own country's products and always try to search problems in our own products... We always try to jump on conclusion immediately. No body discussed at the point that Crew is safe even after this deadly accident .......
Let the HAL team conclude their analysis and then comment... why we are trying to dismay the HAL and each other too.
Mods are requested to help against the above cited negative comments...
Are you really that sensitive over a helicopter? If people want to complain, who are we to deny them the right. Last time I checked, India was a free, DEMOCRATIC country. I would hope this forum would stay the same way.
yea,we should be because this forum reflects the image of our country???? and I respect demcracy too... but we should also discuss the positive facts ....
Lets discuss ALL the facts and quantify them ---
1) A Dhruv crashed
2) Spectators and journalists saw smoke before impact
3) Platform did a radical maneuver suggesting tail rotor failure
4) Dhruvs were grounded
5) Ecuadorian media is calling for refunds
6) HAL teams are on the ground
7) In the meantime, Ecuador is signing deals with Russia for new helicopters
To quantify, Ecuador seems to be jumping the gun at the detriment of Drhuv and its future export potential in Latin Amerika.
OK, cool down lets wait for the comments from HAL...
The points highlighted by you are having valid and true..But wait for the technical report....
Ecuador to India: Take back your choppers
a day after the crash of an Indian made Dhruv helicopter in Ecuador at a military parade, front page newspaper reports in the country say the helicopter is unfit for service and the remaining six Dhruvs in the country could be returned to India.
For Hindustan Aeronautics, the manufacturers of the chopper, this is bad news as it tries to break into international markets with its flagship helicopter.
Other dailies on the newspaper have questioned the $49 million deal to acquire the helicopters from India altogether.
Even two days after the crash, there is no official statement from HAL, even though the Ecuadorian Air Force has not ruled out the possibility of pilot error.
What's clear is that the timing of the crash is bad news for HAL. Ecuador is the Dhruv's biggest international customer as HAL struggles to break into foreign markets.
So the Dhruv has been sold or leased in very low numbers despite being 30 per cent cheaper than Western types. As per now, only nine Dhruvs operate in Nepal, Israel, and Ecuador. Chile has rejected the helicopter, but Peru and Turkey are likely to acquire a total of five.
For its part, HAL has still not reacted officially to news of the crash, even though the Ecuadorian Air Chief has not ruled out the possibility of pilot error.
Ironically, the Dhruv is well accepted in India where it operates on the Siachen glacier at altitudes higher than any helicopter of its class.
"This was a serious crash, but the fact that the crew members made it shows the survivability of the helicopter and credit must be given to its designers," said Air Marshal Fali H Major, former chief of air staff.
The battle to win mindsets in foreign markets is perhaps HAL's biggest challenge. So far that's a battle HAL seems to be losing as it tries to emerge as a serious international player.
Let me put in my conspiracy theory. What are the chances of some vested interests sabotaging the chopper to damage the image of HAL and the chopper?
Pilot conducted a tough move on, chopper got damaged, but piolts got away unhurt? Soon after we hear calls of return the chopper and a deal with Russia. Something is fishy or my mind is just thinking too much.
We certainly have to give props for the survivability. It is well designed in that regard. I doubt if they sabotaged it risking their pilots onboard. The people who have been complaining from day one are the local dailies and they don't have enough vested interest to think about that. The chopper wasn't doing violent maneuvers until they lost control so that is only an unlikely excuse. According to that pilot's blog, there were prior reports that Ecuadorian MoD wasn't too satisfied with some of the contract parameters. When HAL could outbid the nearest competitor by 30% they had to go fo it. Maybe they found something they didn't like after extended operations, maybe maintenance/servicability issues, maybe lack of HAL support --- who knows. What we do know is, they don't like it now and as soon as something bad happened, they are jumping to get rid of it like rotten eggs.
I would say, have some patience before jumping the gun, don't yet pass the judgement without knowing the reasons for crash. It is like shooting in the dark. Let the investigation complete and we will know what were the reasons for the crash and loss of control. There is no point speculating about this crash unless someone wants to indulge in mental gymnastics.
Distressed craft pilot said that during the reported period is not new in flight
written by Atty. Cristhian Reyes
Wednesday, October 28th, 2009
Officers and Ivan Armas Luis Abril, who were aboard the stricken aircraft recovering satisfactorily.
The pilot Carlos Enriquez, who was the helicopter squadron leader during the ceremony on Tuesday said that tests the aircraft was conducted in extreme conditions and even taller than the city of Quito, which was in the Cotopaxi area.
He added that even during exercise was not reported nothing new on the flight, the only communication received was the third helicopter pilot on the accident said the second aircraft.
Meanwhile the commission investigating the accident delivered a report in a month.
Dhruv helicopters equipped with 800 flight hours since arriving in the country and even were the first to perform a flight through an air route which came to 20,000 feet.
Radio Sucre, ultimas noticias de Ecuador, deportes Ecuador, noticias internacionales y mas - Piloto de nave siniestrada dice que durante el ejercicio no se reportó novedad en vuelo
Looks like that rules out weather. Only other two options are pilot error and mechanical failure.
Former EAF Chief Slams Dhruv
Jorge Gabela Well: 'Neither India wants the helicopters'
To the Point: The former commander of the Ecuadorian Air Force
Why tender broke down the first competition for Dhruv helicopters?
The same armed forces of India would not like this aircraft, has a series of accidents and restrictions. When I was in the Recruitment Committee was declared void because not desirable ... It has no certification ... Chile undertook a study to acquire but not passed.
Are they not qualified?
I heard the commanding general (Rodrigo Bohorquez) that do not require certification, that's for civil helicopters. It may be correct, however, one was for the president, then everyone should have it.
Are you aware of reports of problems on those ships?
They have many problems, engine, rotor. In India they can not fly with authorities. The website of Civil Aviation said that the Dhruv in height is unusable, says exactly. The IAEA should investigate all ... It is a prototype, we alone in the world to buy, we were the guinea pig
Jorge Gabela Bueno: ?Ni India quiere esos helicópteros? - OCT. 29, 2009 - Política - EL UNIVERSO
It is amusing how people jump to worries without feeling confident about their own product. Sarang team has repeatedly proven Dhruv's capabilities and the helicopters have shown absolutely no signs of such technical faults whereas just because an export version crashed, people doubt the capabilities of Dhruv.
2-3 months ago, a brand new F-22 Raptor crashed, killing its pilot. Does that mean the raptor is a waste fighter? I don't think so. Today's military aviation still has an element that is well known for dangerous errors: human beings. Pilot error therefore cannot be ruled out and Indian members here must stop panicking. A brand new helicopter that is known to operate in the world's highest battlefields in the most ruthless climates that nature can throw at a machine, just cannot drop out of the sky like a stone. There is a strong possibility of stalling and crashing of the helicopter.
I would suggest members here to wait the verdict of crash before pointing fingers at HAL.
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