Astra BVRAAM

[abhay rajput]

Su30's & mirages communication,radar etc were jammed. Tejas is yet to get foc and not combat ready, they were flying without even a gun, jaguars are strike fighter. Phalcon cannot do data link withsu30 & mig 29. Back then s400 were not there.
And dont boast abot 369 degree coverage, its an added advantage not a necessary on india pak front.

S400 still a defensive weapon, it can take down any intruding aircraft but for air superiority we need jaam proof aircrafts with long range missiles. At present we dont have both.
We may become victories, but with heavy attrition

first of all you suffer from false perspective. secondly they didnt jammed any communications. we didnt have secured radios , so they were able to listen to our pilots. mig21 communication were jammed when it was very near to pakaistani aircraft (use some common sense , if migs were jammed then how come ground controller was able to guide it.) you are right about data link on phalcons, but netra does have it. Our drones regularly fly over POK , LOC. and i am not talking about quadcopters but bigger ons

 

[Hydra3]

first of all you suffer from false perspective. secondly they didnt jammed any communications. we didnt have secured radios , so they were able to listen to our pilots. mig21 communication were jammed when it was very near to pakaistani aircraft (use some common sense , if migs were jammed then how come ground controller was able to guide it.) you are right about data link on phalcons, but netra does have it. Our drones regularly fly over POK , LOC. and i am not talking about quadcopters but bigger ons

Are you sure about drones? And that day we have phalcon on air not netra afaik.

 

[Flying Dagger]

R-37M missile has become more versatile & maneuverable since R-33 variant. Its fully capable of not only taking on fighter aircraft but also Cruise missiles apart from AWACS etc.

If we need a readily available ultra long range missile for a short scrap then there is no other option except R-37M.

Though NGRAM with long, thin profile & big wingspan, can also be readily repurposed as VLR BVRAAM.

Not really don't go by what some of their marketing team might have said. It is hypersonic at mach 6 yes but meant for Awacs and tanker etc but not a fighter aircraft.

A missile needs to pull 4-6 times times the g's an aircraft does to be really effective. R 37m isn't that as it's purpose is to hit 300-400 km range big whales in the sky.

We will have a more expensive meteor (10 of those coming next month) to do the job.

DRDO air to surface missile NGRAM ? It is air to surface with a projected range of 100+ km. Right now we have russian kh series for the purpose.

 

[south block]

Not really don't go by what some of their marketing team might have said. It is hypersonic at mach 6 yes but meant for Awacs and tanker etc but not a fighter aircraft.

A missile needs to pull 4-6 times times the g's an aircraft does to be really effective. R 37m isn't that as it's purpose is to hit 300-400 km range big whales in the sky.

We will have a more expensive meteor (10 of those coming next month) to do the job.

DRDO air to surface missile NGRAM ? It is air to surface with a projected range of 100+ km. Right now we have russian kh series for the purpose.

It doesn't need to maneuver in first place --- it can pull 9g though --- all it need do is get close and boom! --- fragmentation from that 60 kg warhead will destroy everything Maneuvering nearby including fighter jet.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Latest AAM using predictive trajectory require only 1.25-1.5x Gs to target the enemy fighter

 

[abhay rajput]

Are you sure about drones? And that day we have phalcon on air not netra afaik.

yes i am sure about drones . if you know someone from the army who is posted there , you can ask him. regarding data link on phalcon , i dont think they have datalink as of now. netra does have it.

 

[vishnugupt]

Guys just out of curiosity, Could anybody tell us the longest kill by an AAM?? specially fighter jet

 

[Hydra3]

Guys just out of curiosity, Could anybody tell us the longest kill by an AAM?? specially fighter jet

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenseissues.net/2013/04/27/usefulness-of-bvr-combat/amp/
Mere 34.8 km.
And only 4 bvr kills sofar, brute majority of missile kills were happened in visual range.

 

[Bleh]

The only really long range AAMs which would have made a difference on 27th Feb are Russian R-37s.

What will you shoot the AWACS with? It doesn't fly in strikable range. Did any of our aircraft get a lock on?

With this... what we dont have on that day is r37 like missile

If india wanted to go to that depth then within hours their would have been no PAF left.

WC Varthaman's Mig-21 wasnot cleared to shoot BVRs even after having atleast 2 F-16s well within R-77's NEZ before entering WVR... while the SAM system was busy shooting down friendly helo in the opposite direction instead of waiting in ambush. No AWACS, comms jammed.
NOTHING would have made up for that sort of smug, self-satisfied, shortsighted unpreparedness displayed by higher echelon that day.

The day was saved by only the 6-8 Indian pilots & 2 dozen Paki pilots (by their incompetence that 11 PAF PGMs, 5 AMRAAMs missed targets.)

 

[uoftotaku]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenseissues.net/2013/04/27/usefulness-of-bvr-combat/amp/
Mere 34.8 km.
And only 4 bvr kills sofar, brute majority of missile kills were happened in visual range.

The biggest flaw in the theory of BVR combat is that none of the war planners had envisioned being constrained by ROE. Even in a hyper war scenario, a fighter pilot is only as effective as the command allows him to be

 

[Bleh]

Question:
What is the minimum range for a BVR? Can Astra be used as a CCM?

I mean in WVR if you have the bandit witin your radar's field of vision, can you use radar-guideds?

 

[WARREN SS]

What is the minimum range for a BVR? Can Astra be used as a CCM?

50-70 km km Ideally Because of the current Modern EW & DRFM's

I mean in WVR if you have the bandit witin your radar's field of vision, can you use radar-guideds?

There Some BVR's Which are Active RF seeker Like MICA And IRIS_T

But Its Ideally Not favorable due to High Jamming Environment by EW

Most WVR Employ's Infrared homing for Jamming Resistance And Ideally Aircraft Who are on tail chase Use Afterburners To Maneuvering Have high IR signature

 

[porky_kicker]

Last one month or so , a few douche bags have fucked up all the threads

 

[porky_kicker]

Question:
What is the minimum range for a BVR? Can Astra be used as a CCM?

I mean in WVR if you have the bandit witin your radar's field of vision, can you use radar-guideds?

Sir why not Google for ASTRA brochure published by drdo in the first place ?

Always seek the original source for authentic information. India of late has become a WhatsApp , utube , twitter University hence the deluge of stupidity and misinformation in the country.

Then you would have realised ASTRA has LOBL mode , which implies the onboard seeker of ASTRA can be used to lock onto a target before being fired.

Which implies ASTRA can also be used as a WVR missile since ASTRA seeker range is anywhere between 13-30 km

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Mig-29UPG prepped for Astra BVRAAM integration

Indian Air Force(IAF) Top Brass has decided to integrate India’s locally developed Beyond Visual range Air-to-Air missile Astra Mk1 with the 60 odd fleet of upgraded Mig-29UPG Air Superiority fighter jet after IAF started receiving Limited serial production batch of the Astra Missile for its front-line jets like Sukhoi-30MKI. IAF had placed orders for 50 Astra Mk1 BVRAAMS with a range of 100km with DRDO and now plans to order around 200+ missile in bulk for Sukhoi-30MKI and Mig-29UPG initially and then later it will feature in other jets in the IAF fleet. LCA-Tejas Mk1A and Mirage-2000 fighter jets are other fighter aircraft in the IAF fleet which will get Astra Mk1 BVRAAMS from 2023 onwards. The plan is to arm the front line Air Superiority fighter jets like Sukhoi-30MKI and Mig-29UPG in batches and bring it to other fighter jets.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Mig-29UPG prepped for Astra BVRAAM integration

Indian Air Force(IAF) Top Brass has decided to integrate India’s locally developed Beyond Visual range Air-to-Air missile Astra Mk1 with the 60 odd fleet of upgraded Mig-29UPG Air Superiority fighter jet after IAF started receiving Limited serial production batch of the Astra Missile for its front-line jets like Sukhoi-30MKI. IAF had placed orders for 50 Astra Mk1 BVRAAMS with a range of 100km with DRDO and now plans to order around 200+ missile in bulk for Sukhoi-30MKI and Mig-29UPG initially and then later it will feature in other jets in the IAF fleet. LCA-Tejas Mk1A and Mirage-2000 fighter jets are other fighter aircraft in the IAF fleet which will get Astra Mk1 BVRAAMS from 2023 onwards. The plan is to arm the front line Air Superiority fighter jets like Sukhoi-30MKI and Mig-29UPG in batches and bring it to other fighter jets.

Is it true that we cannot Arm mirage 2000 with astra? Then what are we going to do with that 50 Million $ update which consists of Bvrm which is having range of just 70km?

 

[IndianHawk]

Mirage-2000 fighter jets are other fighter aircraft in the IAF fleet which will get Astra Mk1 BVRAAMS from 2023

Is it true that we cannot Arm mirage 2000 with astra? Then what are we going to do with that 50 Million $ update which consists of Bvrm which is having range of just 70km?

Your own post says that mirage will get it with lca mk1a from 2023. First priority is to replace r77 from Russian jets su30 and mig29.

 

[IndianHawk]

WC Varthaman's Mig-21 wasnot cleared to shoot BVRs even after having atleast 2 F-16s well within R-77's NEZ before entering WVR... while the SAM system was busy shooting down friendly helo in the opposite direction instead of waiting in ambush. No AWACS, comms jammed.
NOTHING would have made up for that sort of smug, self-satisfied, shortsighted unpreparedness displayed by higher echelon that day.

Stop spreading misinformation . Phalcon awacs captured the fight between mig21 and f16. That's why it has solid signature of f16 going down .
Bvr kills are rare most air kills are wvr so abhinanadan made his decision.

Helo shoot is unfortunate and costly lesson in networked warfare . Iaf will make amends.

Do you think it was short sightedness which enabled few su30 , mirage and mig21 to hold of 24 jet attack party? And then downing a f16?

Was it unpreparedness which helped su30 dusting off as much as 5 aim 120 missiles?

Don't think so. After 27 Feb porky airspace remained closed for 5-6 months ! What for if iaf is so callous as you allude? What are the porkies worried about ?

 

[Bleh]

Then you would have realised ASTRA has LOBL mode , which implies the onboard seeker of ASTRA can be used to lock onto a target before being fired.

Which implies ASTRA can also be used as a WVR missile since ASTRA seeker range is anywhere between 13-30 km

I knew about Astra's lock-on-before-launch and lock-on-after-launch, mid-course-correction features.
But I donot know enough on these systems to have detucted if it could be fired WVR. Sometimes it is better to ask someone who knows.

I'm saying without its own seeker though... Below 13km range. An enemy aircraft, no matter how hard it manoeuvres, can be comfortably kept in radar field of view at 2-4 km away. I asking about those cases.
The aircraft, AWACS, active-seeker combo feed seems harder to jam than regular CCM.

Stop spreading misinformation . Phalcon awacs captured the fight between mig21 and f16. That's why it has solid signature of f16 going down.

Bvr kills are rare most air kills are wvr so abhinanadan made his decision.

I meant "No AWACS support as Mig-21's support comms were apparently jammed".

And the BVR thing I don't buy... You're saying he carried the extra drag and weight to a WVR, instead of shooting them before to increase hit chances?!!
Nope. Could be jammed. But definitely not that.

The rest of your points are basic stuff that boil down to combination of skill (and luck) for IAF pilots, PAF pilot's incompetence or unprofessionalism and Pak govt's paranoia of Indian retaliatory action.

 

[IndianHawk]

I knew about Astra's lock-on-before-launch and lock-on-after-launch, mid-course-correction features.
But I donot know enough on these systems to have detucted if it could be fired WVR. Sometimes it is better to ask someone who knows.

I'm saying without its own seeker though... Below 13km range. An enemy aircraft, no matter how hard it manoeuvres, can be comfortably kept in radar field of view at 2-4 km away. I asking about those cases.
The aircraft, AWACS, active-seeker combo feed seems harder to jam than regular CCM.
I meant "No AWACS support as Mig-21's support comms were apparently jammed".

And the BVR thing I don't buy... You're saying he carried the extra drag and weight to a WVR, instead of shooting them before to increase hit chances?!!
Nope. Could be jammed. But definitely not that.

The rest of your points are basic stuff that boil down to combination of skill (and luck) for IAF pilots, PAF pilot's incompetence or unprofessionalism and Pak govt's paranoia of Indian retaliatory action.

Abhinandan knew that f16 had maws. That means r77 would alert f16 in advance and reduce chances for a close r73 hit even more. Perhaps that's the part of tactics he learned in training or perhaps it was a gut decision. Fact is we don't know why is did what he did. Speculation should not negate the achievement.

Mig21 was too close to the enemy so it is possible it may have faced some jamming. But once inside porky airspace he didn't have much options even with awacs support. The only way for him to come back in time was to let go of f16 but he rather chose to instill fear of God in the minds of paf.

The downed f16 is nightmarish psychological wound for paf so much so that they can't even openly admit it and came up with fake su30 story to soothe themselves. But the fact that porky completely closed airspace for 6 months show how scared they were actually. That's what iaf achieved on 27 Feb. Paf is on defensive and scared .