AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[proud_indian]

No...........That i am sure of.

@ersakthivel is from South India and Indraneil(BR) is from Mamta (Banerji) Land.

I just realized that I couldn't understand the context of your post.
thanks btw

 

[Rahul Singh]

I just realized that I couldn't understand the context of your post.
thanks btw

Meaning they are not same............. An answer to your query.

 

[proud_indian]

Meaning they are not same............. An answer to your query.

I mean to your earlier post that I quoted. I thought that you were saying that they are the same people.

 

[Kshithij]

I have always maintained that we must make LCA MK2 navy first and than curve out Airforce MK2 out of it. Even Proposed Airforce Mk2 with EJ 230 can simply be an @$$ kicker. Imagine a plane aerodynamically superior, weighing just 6.2 ton empty and having a 73 KG dry thrust engine and 108 ton afterburner and range 2500 KM+. Bloody that shall be an @$$ kicker and outclass anything in the world.

EJ230 of 110kN has not yet been developed. The AMCA lite or MCA (without 5th generation features like stealth or sensor fusion or 5th generation engines) can be a better option for Navy than LCA. Navy has limited space and is better utilised by keeping higher power plane

Next, air force version is easier to make than Navy. So, it is impossible that Navy version comes out first. Simple rule of thumb is that - Navy version can be used in air force but nit vice versa. Also, it is more tedious and expensive to make Navy versions and hence countries avoid using the same version for both air force and navy.

Anyways, better to first get MK2 before commenting more

 

[HariPrasad-1]

This version has the potential to give Gripen run for its money. Let alone Gripen E becoming the workhorse of IAF by becoming single-engine fighter winner.......But this is what we think. The Air Marshals along with (now sadly) Admirals think that there are multiple benefits of buying a foreign fighter. One of them are heafty Retirement Benefits.

True, IAF and IA lacks the vision which IN has. See how navy supports each and every project.

 

[mayfair]

True, IAF and IA lacks the vision which IN has. See how navy supports each and every project.

Naval LCA begs to differ, this despite having an ex-navy Cmdr. Balaji at the helm of ADA.

 

[Rahul Singh]

True, IAF and IA lacks the vision which IN has. See how navy supports each and every project.

For some strange reasons ever since Admiral Lamba assumed the office of CNS, I am witnessing a strange trajectory taking Navy away from preferring indigenous.

They have already killed N-LCA which is --as it can not be replaced-- the stepping stone to Naval AMCA. However, Navy which could waste taxpayers money experimenting with Mig-29K --which is as good as no use during wartime because it requires full maintenance after every trap-- is finding N-LCA MK-2 useless despite knowing how critical it is for realising next big thing which could have been( selection tense is deliberate) N AMCA.

Since F-35 will definitely follow F-18s which Navy has more or less selected there will be no N AMCA for sure. if this was not enough, Navy has practically ignored N Dhruv --despite HAL having met the specific requirements like less vibration at ASL and auto folding rotor blades for shipborne operations-- for its NUH requirements. Furthermore, it has shown its reluctance in joining IMRH project.

If these are unfortunate signs of departure from earlier mindset I wonder.

It seems Army is reversing its attitude towards indigenous weapons as recently CoAS has stated that India should fight its next war with locally developed weapons.

Sorry for OT, mods.

 

[abingdonboy]

For some strange reasons ever since Admiral Lamba assumed the office of CNS, I am witnessing a strange trajectory taking Navy away from preferring indigenous.

They have already killed N-LCA which is --as it can not be replaced-- the stepping stone to Naval AMCA. However, Navy which could waste taxpayers money experimenting with Mig-29K --which is as good as no use during wartime because it requires full maintenance after every trap-- is finding N-LCA MK-2 useless despite knowing how critical it is for realising next big thing which could have been( selection tense is deliberate) N AMCA.

Since F-35 will definitely follow F-18s which Navy has more or less selected there will be no N AMCA for sure. if this was not enough, Navy has practically ignored N Dhruv --despite HAL having met the specific requirements like less vibration at ASL and auto folding rotor blades for shipborne operations-- for its NUH requirements. Furthermore, it has shown its reluctance in joining IMRH project.

If these are unfortunate signs of departure from earlier mindset I wonder.

It seems Army is reversing its attitude towards indigenous weapons as recently CoAS has stated that India should fight its next war with locally developed weapons.

Sorry for OT, mods.

The trajectory of a force does not change on the whims of an indduvidual leader, they are there for only 3-4 years at most and are little more than a figurehead, the real power exists with the civilian ledership.

I don't think there's much we can learn from the CNS's comments/actions of late, I think is very much in line with his predecessors.

 

[abingdonboy]

I have a dream that one day we will see Tejas soaring over the skies of Afghanistan
:biggrin2:

Afghans need bomb trucks and ground pounders, a 4/4.5+ gen multirole fighter is almost useless to them

 

[Suryavanshi]

Afghans need bomb trucks and ground pounders, a 4/4.5+ gen multirole fighter is almost useless to them

We could use it to bomb taliban if it ever came down to sending Indian soldiers. From what I've seen f 16 has been of heavy use in WOT

 

[lcafanboy]

Modi govt writing finis to Tejas?
Published October 30, 2017 | By admin SOURCE: Bharat Karnad

All work related to designing and developing the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft and its variants, including the right-weighted naval Tejas, has come to a stop at ADA and HAL. The plan was for the air force Mk-II version of the LCA Tejas light combat aircraft — a much improved version of the Mk-IA equipped with the indigenous DRDO AESA radar that Parrikar succeeded in forcing on the Indian Air Force to, in turn, lead in a natural progression to the follow-on advance medium combat aircraft (AMCA), which would also incorporate design features of the Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

The FGFA to be produced in India is to include the features the IAF wanted in it, such as the 360 degree radar surveillance and tracking, a two-pilot configuration (the IAF under Charlie Brown asked for, but better sense prevailed as Vayu Bhavan realized that would increase its RCS) and even a new power plant. The Indian Govt has already invested in this collaborative project to the tune of some $1billion-$1.5 billion, and was cleared by then defence minister Manohar Parrikar in February this year.

This entire plan is now unraveling with the Modi govt, at IAF’s persistent prodding, doing a rethink on the FGFA despite enormous investment of monies and Indian effort into it. The HAL chairman T Suvarna Raju has written to defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman strongly pitching for the FGFA program, especially stressing the fact that India stands to gain very advanced technologies that no other country is prepared to transfer in full, including computer source codes for every technology and feature in it, which will be the building blocks for the indigenous aerospace industry. (See https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-project-with-russia/articleshow/61189233.cms )

The question is will Sitharaman display some little common sense and see that the F-16 and F-18 combo the US govt under Trump is pushing on Delhi supposedly to cement the “100 year” strategic partnership that Rex Tillerson offered as a means of containing China and maintaining peace in the Indo-Pacific/ Asia-Pacific region, will take India back half a century in aerospace terms. That’s how old the Lockheed Martin F-16 and the Boeing F-18 really are. Agility-wise, the Tejas can run circles around the F-16 and F-18, what to talk of the Pakistan Air Force — flying the F-16 for the last 30 years — which no doubt, is licking its chops in anticipation of the IAF fielding its own F-16s, and once again making a grievous historic blunder of the kind that led to GOI, on IAF’s say-so, junking the Marut Mk-II in the early 1970s, buying instead the British Jaguar deep penetration and strike aircraft that cannot strike hard and penetrate deep at the same time, and ending the prospects of locally designed and produced combat aircraft and aerospace industry, and sealing the future of the country as an arms dependency.

Parrikar understood very well the importance of the LCA as lead-in hereafter to only Indian aircraft in IAF and Indian Navy’s inventory and resisted all overtures from the armed services in the direction of the FGFA rejection. Because let’s be clear what IAF’s enthusiasm for AMCA really is — it is a cover to ditch all indigenous aircraft altogether. Because without Tejas Mk-II and FGFA there’s no AMCA! This is the kind of brilliant tactical strategy the Indian military excels in — sawing off the limb of a tree the country is perched on. Parrikar saw through it, but lacked the guts to explain to Modi, stuck on simple-minded notions of ‘Make in India’ the importance of sticking with Tejas and marshaling all national resources into it, and going with the economical Su-30-Tejas variants option backed by FGFA as technology seedbed. But Modi went ahead and procured 36 Rafales from France anyway, preempting Parrikar’s correct choice of relying on augmented numbers of Su-30 upgraded to “super Sukoi” model, that would have resulted in a far superior Indian air order-of-battle than the hodge-podge fleet IAF will be fielding in the 2020s and beyond. God help the country.

Now what of Sitharaman? Her background is curious. A JNU product and, like many of this Leftist local university’ s alumni, she took to the opportunities offered by the big, bad, Western world like fish to water. She worked at a senior position in the American firm, Price Waterhouse Cooper, in London, and as a producer at the British Broadcasting Corporation, requiring security clearance from the UK security services. Incidentally, was this background of no concern to the ruling BJP and GOI before she began climbing their ranks to now be the Union defence minister? So, it should surprise no one greatly if she speedily puts her signature on contracts to buy the obsolete F-16s and F-18s, 100 more or whatever of the Rafale, and similar, usually technologically dated, imported hardware from US, UK, France, Israel, et al the armed services keep pleading for.

http://idrw.org/modi-govt-writing-finis-to-tejas/#more-152445 .

 

[Kshithij]

Modi govt writing finis to Tejas?
Published October 30, 2017 | By admin SOURCE: Bharat Karnad

All work related to designing and developing the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft and its variants, including the right-weighted naval Tejas, has come to a stop at ADA and HAL. The plan was for the air force Mk-II version of the LCA Tejas light combat aircraft — a much improved version of the Mk-IA equipped with the indigenous DRDO AESA radar that Parrikar succeeded in forcing on the Indian Air Force to, in turn, lead in a natural progression to the follow-on advance medium combat aircraft (AMCA), which would also incorporate design features of the Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

The FGFA to be produced in India is to include the features the IAF wanted in it, such as the 360 degree radar surveillance and tracking, a two-pilot configuration (the IAF under Charlie Brown asked for, but better sense prevailed as Vayu Bhavan realized that would increase its RCS) and even a new power plant. The Indian Govt has already invested in this collaborative project to the tune of some $1billion-$1.5 billion, and was cleared by then defence minister Manohar Parrikar in February this year.

This entire plan is now unraveling with the Modi govt, at IAF’s persistent prodding, doing a rethink on the FGFA despite enormous investment of monies and Indian effort into it. The HAL chairman T Suvarna Raju has written to defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman strongly pitching for the FGFA program, especially stressing the fact that India stands to gain very advanced technologies that no other country is prepared to transfer in full, including computer source codes for every technology and feature in it, which will be the building blocks for the indigenous aerospace industry. (See https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-project-with-russia/articleshow/61189233.cms )

The question is will Sitharaman display some little common sense and see that the F-16 and F-18 combo the US govt under Trump is pushing on Delhi supposedly to cement the “100 year” strategic partnership that Rex Tillerson offered as a means of containing China and maintaining peace in the Indo-Pacific/ Asia-Pacific region, will take India back half a century in aerospace terms. That’s how old the Lockheed Martin F-16 and the Boeing F-18 really are. Agility-wise, the Tejas can run circles around the F-16 and F-18, what to talk of the Pakistan Air Force — flying the F-16 for the last 30 years — which no doubt, is licking its chops in anticipation of the IAF fielding its own F-16s, and once again making a grievous historic blunder of the kind that led to GOI, on IAF’s say-so, junking the Marut Mk-II in the early 1970s, buying instead the British Jaguar deep penetration and strike aircraft that cannot strike hard and penetrate deep at the same time, and ending the prospects of locally designed and produced combat aircraft and aerospace industry, and sealing the future of the country as an arms dependency.

Parrikar understood very well the importance of the LCA as lead-in hereafter to only Indian aircraft in IAF and Indian Navy’s inventory and resisted all overtures from the armed services in the direction of the FGFA rejection. Because let’s be clear what IAF’s enthusiasm for AMCA really is — it is a cover to ditch all indigenous aircraft altogether. Because without Tejas Mk-II and FGFA there’s no AMCA! This is the kind of brilliant tactical strategy the Indian military excels in — sawing off the limb of a tree the country is perched on. Parrikar saw through it, but lacked the guts to explain to Modi, stuck on simple-minded notions of ‘Make in India’ the importance of sticking with Tejas and marshaling all national resources into it, and going with the economical Su-30-Tejas variants option backed by FGFA as technology seedbed. But Modi went ahead and procured 36 Rafales from France anyway, preempting Parrikar’s correct choice of relying on augmented numbers of Su-30 upgraded to “super Sukoi” model, that would have resulted in a far superior Indian air order-of-battle than the hodge-podge fleet IAF will be fielding in the 2020s and beyond. God help the country.

Now what of Sitharaman? Her background is curious. A JNU product and, like many of this Leftist local university’ s alumni, she took to the opportunities offered by the big, bad, Western world like fish to water. She worked at a senior position in the American firm, Price Waterhouse Cooper, in London, and as a producer at the British Broadcasting Corporation, requiring security clearance from the UK security services. Incidentally, was this background of no concern to the ruling BJP and GOI before she began climbing their ranks to now be the Union defence minister? So, it should surprise no one greatly if she speedily puts her signature on contracts to buy the obsolete F-16s and F-18s, 100 more or whatever of the Rafale, and similar, usually technologically dated, imported hardware from US, UK, France, Israel, et al the armed services keep pleading for.

http://idrw.org/modi-govt-writing-finis-to-tejas/#more-152445 .

I would rather commit suicide than believe in this nonsense. Just look at it - he abuses Nirmala Sitharaman for working in PwC and for being a JNU product. He next abuses India for conspiring to buy F16. He simply states that all work of Tejas has come to a halt while Tejas MK1A is being serially produced. He arbitrarily says that FGFA will give India 100% ToT including source codes as if Russia doesn't even want to keep its codes as a secret. No country would give its own source codes as that will enable others to create bugs.

He appears to be some deranged Russian agent who doesn't deserve to have any credibility

 

[torque456]

Tejas mk2 and N-LCA have come to a standstill with little attention to amca as it is. (Source- Trusted posters on some forums.)

I would rather commit suicide than believe in this nonsense. Just look at it - he abuses Nirmala Sitharaman for working in PwC and for being a JNU product. He next abuses India for conspiring to buy F16. He simply states that all work of Tejas has come to a halt while Tejas MK1A is being serially produced. He arbitrarily says that FGFA will give India 100% ToT including source codes as if Russia doesn't even want to keep its codes as a secret. No country would give its own source codes as that will enable others to create bugs.

He appears to be some deranged Russian agent who doesn't deserve to have any credibility

 

[Kshithij]

Tejas mk2 and N-LCA have come to a standstill with little attention to amca as it is. (Source- Trusted posters on some forums.)

If your source is Indian defence forum or pakistan defence forum, then don't worry to much. I have been there and seen these nonsense myself. The forum is run by jihadis with fake names of "hellfire", "parikrama" etc.

It is that there has been no news at all to outseide world and a high secrecy is maintained to prevent sabotage. If India was doing poorly on AMCA, there would be no reason for not to go to FGFA. Also, MK2 was long decided as a mandatory upgrade to MK1A due to additional requirement of fuel and space for carrying equipments internally.

Nirmala Sitharaman is not the one who controls these projects but Modi himself. If these jihadis weren't able to get information, then Modi is doing a good job.

Making MK2 is not a big deal but making Kaveri is. As long as Kaveri engines are completed, making MK2 will be an obvious step. Designing an airframe with minor improvement in size is just a small parameter adjustment and easily done. Increase in scaling by 3-4% requires minimal adjustments. The delta wing is highly unstable which means there will be lot of margins already fed into the fly-by-wire to accommodate the small changes.

 

[Kshithij]

Why India’s Tejas MK-2 might have Israel’s Lavi fate due American lobbying!
Published October 3, 2017 SOURCE: MANJUNATH REDDDY/ FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

Exactly 30 years ago, in last week of September month of 1987, Israeli Cabinet voted to halt development of the Lavi fighter jet, which was to be Israel’s which was to be Israel’s main advanced combat aircraft for the 1990’s.

Program was canceled as a result of pressure from the Reagan Administration and instead, Israel went on to purchase 90 less-expensive American-made F-16 fighters were brought instead which will follow on contracts expanded to 200 units over the years but lead to Lavi once dubbed as most advanced 4th generation fighter jet ever developed went to scrapyard instead of production line and how Tejas MK-2 might see repeat of Israel’s Lavi fate due powerful American lobbying.

Lavi fighter jet was developed from American military aid and technology and when the program started generating lot of buzz around, leading to making countries making a beeline to inquire about the product US Defence lobby saw it has a threat to American-made F-16 fighter aircraft in export market and under Amercian pressure Israel was first made to agree that Lavi will not be exported ever and once that was secured US Defence lobby went into counter-offensive .

To accommodate F-16s in Israeli air force fleet, the requirement for Lavi dropped from initial internal assessment from 200 units to 120 units and later hovered around only 80 units. With Production order for only 80 units and no export guarantees given to American administration meant that the aircraft was more expensive than the F-16 on offer.

Many in Israeli air force and the government started opposing Lavi fighter jet due to rising cost but kept ignoring commitments made by state-owned Israel Aircraft Industries which had promised that prices will fall once the original indented order was restored for 120-200 units.

But Lavi fighter program also saw support withing Israeli air force but people were divided due to large-scale anti program propaganda unleashed by Israeli media on behalf of the American administration and the final nail came when a year before Reagan Administration threatened to reduce annual United States military assistance to Israel if the Lavi fighter program was not canceled and if they do then military assistance will be increased .

India’s Tejas MK-2 lacks any order commitment from Indian Air force and Indian Navy which means unless program gets massive bulk production orders for 120+ jets, project might be declared un-economical, Yet it is unlikely Tejas MK-2 with firm order of more than 120+ units will be costing more than American F-16 Block 70 which will be Made in India, but a reduced order or no order at all and easy availability of F-16 Block 70 in India might create pressure on Indian government to abandon the project altogether and focus only on India’s 5th Generation AMCA project .

American Defence lobby will see India’s Tejas MK-2 program has a threat to its F-16 and F-18 chances in India not due to technological aspect but due to India’s limited budget set for IAF’s modernization and procurement over next twenty years. American administration along with subcontractors can create pressure on Indian government to support them with more military orders even though they are not so keen on the transfer of technology to India.

http://idrw.org/why-indias-tejas-mk-2-might-have-israels-lavi-fate-due-american-lobbying/ .

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You appear to be making unnecessary noise without any sound logic. Care to explain why would India make Tejas MK1A but not MK2? If US lobby couldn't kill MK1A, how could it kill MK2?
Also, Kaveri is nearing completion and is only a matter of time. Why couldn't USA kill Kaveri engine too? If it is about killing a project by lobby, everything will be killed

 

[torque456]

I hope you're right. I keep wishing for a full scale prototype of amca to pop up someday without any intimation.

 

[Kay]

ADA & HAL will kill Mk2 not Muricans.

The dramatic increase in performance that was promised in Mk2 gets less dramatic if Mk1A does it's job.

The first flight of Mk2 went from 2018 during Aero India 2013 to 2022. Atleast 5 years of flight testing before induction (No, I don't share the optimism that it'll be inducted in 2 or 3 years).

So essentially India will be inducting a 4.5 gen aircraft around 10 years from now and a production run of 10 years means that MK2 will be what Mig-21 was in the 1990s. Still flying but not going to win wars for you.

So build the MK1A in numbers, kill the MK2 and move on ASAP to AMCA.

We do not know how important stealth will be 10 years from now. A lot of technological improvements can reduce the absolute advantage that stealth possesses today. Also, electronic stealth may replace stealth shaping. In any case, most air forces will continue operating a mix of stealthy and non-stealthy fighters in the foreseeable future. So, an MK2 10 years down the line is still a good proposition.

 

[Kay]

Forget about American lobby gang . Our ADA-HAL bubus are enough to screw this project up. HAL is not able to produce more than 4 LCA per year and I have pinned hopes on AMCA/Tejas Mk2. Better bring private players.

HAL is on track to finish 11 Tejas by this financial year. Private industry will ensure that officers and bureaucrats get their cut - be it Desi or foreign. That is why there is so much clamouring for privatization, not because they do a better job.
Lockheed Martin has royally screwed up F-35. And this is not the first fiasco by foreign private industries - F111, Eurofighter, Zumwalt, Littoral Combat Ships, Queen Elizabeth Aircraft Career - the list of screw-ups is quite large.

 

[sthf]

We do not know how important stealth will be 10 years from now.

Doesn't matter. Except F-35, every single "5th gen" is designed to outclass legacy fighters in every field be it aerodynamics, engines, avionics, fuel or armaments. Stealth is not be all end all regardless whatever LM claims.

So, an MK2 10 years down the line is still a good proposition.

How about 20? After 10 years production run starting 2027 means that last batch of Mk2 will enter service 30 years after F-22. Not much of a triumph.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Doesn't matter. Except F-35, every single "5th gen" is designed to outclass legacy fighters in every field be it aerodynamics, engines, avionics, fuel or armaments. Stealth is not be all end all regardless whatever LM claims.

How about 20? After 10 years production run starting 2027 means that last batch of Mk2 will enter service 30 years after F-22. Not much of a triumph.

What you say sounds logical.... but it is not going to be true.

5th gen fighters will replace air superiority fighters for sure. They out class everything else, but we still need 4.5 gen fighters.

The reasons are

1. 4.5 gen are lot cheaper.
2. Very low maintenance.
3. More no. of sorties per day.
4. Peace time air patrol.
5.Bombing role after 5th gen destroy enemy Air Force.

However there is a chance of UCAVs giving a tough fight to 4.5 gen fighters and occupy their role.

If we go for LCA mk2 then it will be the last legacy fighter in I for sure. If we don't the Rafale will be the last one.