How to counter Fifth Generation Stealth fighters?

[W.G.Ewald]

Fighters, Missiles For Countering Stealth

Fighters, Missiles For Countering Stealth | AVIATION WEEK

Unlike many nations that have followed ad hoc strategies for defining future weapon systems—often influenced by industrial base and existing force structure concerns—Russian defense planning has been systematic and disciplined in its approach, intended to symmetrically challenge U.S. strengths and asymmetrically challenge U.S. weaknesses. The strategic intent is to enhance Russia's political freedom of action in a U.S.-dominated post-Cold War world, while using arms export revenues to relieve the pressure on limited defense resources.

Russian choices have been guided by a consistent Western tactical air defense plan that has been centered on the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Delays in the JSF program have now given Russia more than 20 years to prepare for its initial operational capability date.

For aircraft, Russian defense planners have chosen quality over numbers, with the future force being based on three 30-ton-plus fighter-strike aircraft from Sukhoi, two of them direct developments of the Su-27 "Flanker" family. The smaller MiG-29/35 has been developed and offered for export only.

The most mature of the three is the Su-34 strike fighter/medium bomber. The first batch of six production-standard Su-34s, out of an initial order of 32 aircraft, has been delivered to a tactics development unit at Lipetsk, and 10 more are due to arrive this year; an order for another 92 aircraft was announced on March 1, to be delivered by 2020. Under development since the late 1980s, the Su-34 replaces the Su-24 "Fencer" in land and maritime strike, suppression/destruction of enemy air defenses and other missions, while having the speed and agility to defend itself.

 

[agentperry]

i heard there is a russian helicopter in development that can fire missiles to bring down aircrafts. it will be stealth helicopter.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

As we all know, all the Fifth Generation Fighters in development are stealth equipped, and as their developers claim, they will be extremely hard for a radar to spot. So assume if two countries with stealth aircraft fight in the future, like India and China, or China and U.S.A., or U.S.A.how is one gonna counter the other's stealth capabilities?

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Stealth technology and the counter-stealth response - Airforce Technology

The evolution of anti-stealth detection

Even with the huge investment being poured into stealth aircraft, the technology hardly provides fighters with the power of invisibility. Technologies, both highly advanced and surprisingly low-tech, exist that are able to spot stealth aircraft.

That much was proved back in 1999 when a US F-117 stealth ground-attack aircraft was shot down over Yugoslavia, having been spotted by long-wavelength radar after its radar signature was briefly raised when its bomb-bay doors opened.

The availability of information on counter-stealth technologies remains low, but it's clear that adaptations of generations-old radar technology have the potential to turn the invisible visible.

Very high frequency (VHF) and ultra high frequency (UHF), pioneered in the 1940s, is still used today for long-range aerial surveillance. These frequencies, as explained by Arend G. Westra in a 2009 issue of Joint Force Quarterly, can confound stealth techniques by operating on decimetre to metre-long wavelengths.

The meeting of wavelengths between radar and aircraft causes resonation between the two, significantly raising an aircraft's reflection in the radar spectrum, making it much more visible. VHF radar has been incorporated into the Russian military's 1L119 Nebo SVU, its first VHF-band active electronically steered array (AESA); although detailed analysis of this vehicle-mounted array, Russian sources report it has achieved excellent results in spotting stealth aircraft.
"Adaptations of generations-old radar technology have the potential to turn the invisible visible."

Passive radar is another well-established, relatively inexpensive technology that has potential against LO aircraft. This system uses multiple transmitters of opportunity to collate data, estimating aircraft positions by calculating the intersection of the receiver-to-target bearing and the bistatic range ellipse. In the past, these estimates have been too inaccurate to be useful, but modern advances in signal and digital processing, along with the availability of sophisticated, low-cost hardware, make passive radar a viable way to detect stealth targets. Passive radar systems in the defence market include Lockheed Martin's Silent Sentry passive coherent location (PCL) system.

The game-changing advance for passive radar technology will be the ability to identify targets as well as track them, allowing passive radar to integrate with surface-to-air missile defence systems.

While the concurrent development of the latest generation of stealth-enabled fighters constitutes an arms race in itself, this race sits within a wider technological contest between stealth and counter-stealth technologies and techniques. Governments around the world are pouring investment into stealth aircraft development programmes, but it remains to be seen if these costly paragons of modern military hardware will end up undone by the evolution of comparatively modest radar systems.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has stealth capabilities, but will they be enough to compete with rival Russian and Chinese programmes?
Stealth technologies are also being applied to UAVs, such as Boeing's Phantom Ray, pictured here on its first flight in April 2011.
Passive radars like this Ukrainian-developed Kolchuga passive sensor have the potential to spot aircraft in spite of stealth measures.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Stealth technology and the counter-stealth response - Airforce Technology

The evolution of anti-stealth detection

Thanks man. Really wanted to know about it.

 

[LurkerBaba]

China has methods to deal with stealth aircraft

On the morning of Sept. 15, the first "Military Camp Opening Day" activity of Wuhan was held in the Wuhan Air Force Command Center and the military exhibited to residents hundreds of pieces of air force equipment in active service. When a resident asked whether the People's Liberation Army has methods to deal with stealth aircraft, the instructor of the activity from the military said that if enemy stealth aircraft dare to invade China's territorial air space, they have ways to shoot them down.

The political commissar of the Wuhan Air Force Command Center Major General Kang Zizhong said that the "Military Camp Opening Day" activity will allow residents to closely experience the latest scientific development achievements of China's armed forces and effectively strengthen common people's sense of national defense.

At the site of the activity, the Wuhan Air Force Command Center exhibited three anti-aircraft missile systems to residents.

A military expert said that China has made great progress in constructing the integrated modern anti-aircraft system, realized the transition from the second-generation fighter planes to third-generation fighter planes, and China's advanced air early warning planes, anti-aircraft missiles and detecting and commanding equipment of various kinds have been put into service in corps. It has taken China's anti-aircraft capacity to a new level. China's armed forces are able to eliminate any incoming enemy from the air.
A resident asked, "Are our armed forces capable of shooting down stealth planes like the B-2, F-22 and F-35 planes of the United States? Is the Red Flag-9 missile capable of doing it?

The instructor of the activity Captain Yang Wen said that he could not answer the question directly and all he could say was that China already carried out military drills taking "shooting down stealth planes, cruise missiles and armed helicopters; anti-precision strikes, anti-electronic interference and anti-reconnaissance" as contents at the end of 20th century. Dealing with stealth weapons, such as stealth planes and missiles, is a large systematic project. "In order to successfully shoot down stealth planes, finding them beforehand is the key."

Yang said that as long as China could find stealth planes, China could shoot them down. In past military drills, China already shot down such air targets as stealth planes and missiles many times. The armed forces of China have methods to deal with stealth planes.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/7954462.html

 

[ersakthivel]

So what is the point of fielding 5th gen inefficient stealths?If china can track and shoot them ,pretty much everyone can.Isn't it?
Then the whole concept of stealth is not cutting edge anymore?
Are only the chinese capable of tracking down and shooting the stealths?While indians and others can't?

So future stealths must be aerodynamically much more efficient than 4th gens planes as well as having stealth.
having stealth alone as USP ,and poorer engine and avionics tech means you cannot be sure of your superiority over much more efficient 4th gens.

 

[bengalraider]

​

One of the easiest ways that is currently being discussed/developed in a very nascent stage is using cellphone/television/any other signals . simply put the idea is to saturate the airspace over and around any target of military value with random signals these then create a net through which every aircraft must fly , stealth or not. whenever any aircraft flies through such a saturated zone there is a hole in the net of signals this hole can then be targeted. the hardware is not too difficult from regular radars and is currently in developmental testing the software is far more trickier and that is in development as well. such a system is particularly effective over a city where the airwaves are already saturated.

'Passive radar' could render stealth planes obsolete​

For the last 30 years stealth technology on planes and ships has brought battleground advantage to the world's leading military powers. Countries like the United States have been able to fly undetected on missions into Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, and Iraq (again) to deliver precision strikes to enemy targets. However, new radar technology could render stealth technology obsolete.

Cassidian, part of the massive Europe-wide European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS), has developed a kind of "passive radar" which it claims can detect stealth aircraft. Passive radar detects radiation signals emitted by other sources -- be they radio broadcasts or mobile phone networks -- and analyses distortions to figure out where objects are located.

Stealth technology conventionally works by minimising the reflective profile of an object, with perhaps the most famous example being the iconic triangular-ish Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit bomber. Conventional radar systems emit signals which then "bounce" off objects, giving away their location (exactly how a bat "see" in the dark using noise) -- the B-2's shape, wide and shallow with perpendicular surfaces, absorbs those signals (or reflects them away from any detector) to avoid revealing its presence.

The system Cassidian proposes, however, wouldn't be fooled by standard stealth cloaking techniques because it takes advantage of a range of signals which surround us constantly. There's no need to fire out signals and look for their reflections -- instead, the detector system looks at a host of signals floating in the atmosphere already (like aforementioned radio and mobile phone signals) and looks for how they're blocked or altered by having to pass through or around objects. Triangulating several different sources can build up a picture of a landscape or airspace, with stealth planes and ships just as visible as everything else.

Even more worrying for commanders, too, is that because passive radar stations don't emit anything, there's no way to track them down. The tactic of sending in a stealth bomber to take out enemy radar capabilities before sending in the conventional planes wouldn't work -- passive radar detectors can be small and spread out over a large area.

Cassidian also claims that passive radar has applications for civilian air traffic control. Simpler, smaller passive radar stations will be cheaper and easier to set up and maintain than the current systems used at airports around the world. A prototype of the system is currently being tested at Stuttgart Airport, and if it works as well as hoped then we could see it begin to appear at other airports within a couple of years.

Passive radar has started to look like an effective tool in smaller-scale situations -- Wired.co.uk reported on the development of tech that can detect people through walls using the Wi-Fi and other signals that permeate human settlements. It could have a use in a hostage situation (where the police need to know where the bad guys are inside a sealed room), or the fire service could use it to locate people within buildings filled with smoke.

'Passive radar' could render stealth planes obsolete (Wired UK)

 

[sayareakd]

5G aircraft is not 100% invisible to radar. Yes the size of radar signature shrinks, with network of radar you can do something like this

 

[p2prada]

5G aircraft is not 100% invisible to radar. Yes the size of radar signature shrinks, with network of radar you can do something like this

This method is called triangulation. It works only in specific times when the aircraft is within your territory. The most important parameter for this to work is that the enemy aircraft MUST be emitting signals.

This has nothing to do with radar.

 

[SajeevJino]

i heard there is a russian helicopter in development that can fire missiles to bring down aircrafts. it will be stealth helicopter.

I think you are misunderstand about Comanche from Area 51

 

[ersakthivel]

This method is called triangulation. It works only in specific times when the aircraft is within your territory. The most important parameter for this to work is that the enemy aircraft MUST be emitting signals.

This has nothing to do with radar.

A small correction reflecting the radar waves ,not emitting signals.

 

[agentperry]

I think you are misunderstand about Comanche from Area 51

no there was newspaper reporting

 

[ersakthivel]

passive detection method is a fool proof technique, no countermeasures can be deployed against that.because in war time there will be so many radars emitting airbourne,ground and from ew crafts and stealth UCAVS .And there will be mutiple recievers listening.

The listeners are passive.So no 5th gen aircraft can do stealthy sead missions as once it enters enemy airspace it will be illuminated by multiple radars and it's reflections will be picked up by multiple sources.

The ram coating can absorb only a small amount of radiation and ,beyond that it will overheat and start emitting sizable IR signature another source of detection.
Already L ,VHF radars will pinpoint the position of 5th gen x band stealths within enough accuracy to direct other radar sources and listeners to track the 5th gens.

So 5th gen fighters have to be aerodynamically efficient as well to be effective.Infact once counter measures are perfected it will be at the same level of low rcs 4th gens.

Strategically postined and calibarated radars and receivers will detect 5th gens all the time with triangulation algorithms.
So an 5th gen is stealth only in it's home airspace in future.

As the 5th gens will give their true RCS to VHF and L band radars.

Jamming all radars simultaneously isa pipe dream as well.

 

[p2prada]

The Cassidian method is theoretical BS.

By the time they implement it my great, great, great grand kids will be retiring and I will be over 500 years old.

From the article,

The system Cassidian proposes, however, wouldn't be fooled by standard stealth cloaking techniques because it takes advantage of a range of signals which surround us constantly.

There will be so much interference during wartime that cell phone signals will not even survive a few meters of transmission. Heck wireless networks fail for hours during a little crisis, like a terrorist attack, let alone something like a major war where your comm networks will be directly targeted.

In such an environment, Cassidian plans on "using" cellphone signals. Waah! That too, for what, "detecting" F-22 and F-35.

Looks like some department wants extra money.

 

[asianobserve]

How best to counter 5th gen fighters? How else but with another 5th gen fighter...

 

[Shirman]

It seems the Japanese have come up with unique concept to counter J20 n J31 stealth fighters n entire things Chinese PLAAF could throw at them n Koreans......:thumb:

They r basically upgrading their F-15s n F-2s with AESA tipped Ramjet missile seekers n air launched spotter drones....Well if American Raytheon company plans to send micro satellites in space so their EW aerial assets JSTARS, U.S. airforce's E-3 Sentrys n U.S. navy's E-2D Hawkeyes along with coalition n U.S. allies AEW&cs get a complete virtual image of Aerial Battlefield in there Cockpits which totally makes enemy's PAKFA, J-31s n J-20 obsolete why cant Japanese sensor fuse their F-15s with Fighter planes spitting missiles which has AESA radar in their seekers....Talk about weaponising Nano-technology at its optimum best....

heres the link :- 掲示板 インターネット日韓文化交流 - KJCLUB - KJLAND

It was also discussed in MilPhotos forums.....heres the link :- Japan Upgrades Air-to-Air

 

[lookieloo]

How best to counter 5th gen fighters?

Destroy them on the ground.

 

[p2prada]

It seems the Japanese have come up with unique concept to counter J20 n J31 stealth fighters n entire things Chinese PLAAF could throw at them n Koreans......:thumb:

They r basically upgrading their F-15s n F-2s with AESA tipped Ramjet missile seekers n air launched spotter drones....Well if American Raytheon company plans to send micro satellites in space so their EW aerial assets JSTARS, U.S. airforce's E-3 Sentrys n U.S. navy's E-2D Hawkeyes along with coalition n U.S. allies AEW&cs get a complete virtual image of Aerial Battlefield in there Cockpits which totally makes enemy's PAKFA, J-31s n J-20 obsolete why cant Japanese sensor fuse their F-15s with Fighter planes spitting missiles which has AESA radar in their seekers....Talk about weaponising Nano-technology at its optimum best....

heres the link :- 掲示板 インターネット日韓文化交流 - KJCLUB - KJLAND

It was also discussed in MilPhotos forums.....heres the link :- Japan Upgrades Air-to-Air

Lot of theory, but nothing practical.

For eg:
In tests in the US, E-3C, E-2C and even F-15C/E failed in detecting the F-22 even though varied bands were used in the S, L, VHF/UHF and X bands. This established the fact that current and planned radars of the time were not capable of detecting the F-22.

In time radars will be capable of detecting F-22/PAKFA etc.

But detection is fine. Detection is just one of the many parameters that need to be satisfied before engaging an aircraft.

But how will the engagement be carried out? PAKFA/F-22 have kinematic superiority over any AWACS along with carrying high speed long range BVR missiles. As long as the AWACS is not stealthy, it can be detected and engaged from the same maximum range that it is capable of detecting the PAKFA/F-22.

F-15 or any other 4th gen aircraft won't survive until a radar is made for the F-22 to be obsolete. Meaning a radar capable of detecting and engaging the F-22 is at least 15-20 years away. Which means, all 4th gen systems today will be phased out by then from most of the top air forces and navies. The ones that remain (like Rafale/EF etc) will be nearing the end of their service life and will end up with secondary duties complementing the 5th gen fighters.

So the only aircraft which can receive upgrades capable of detecting and engaging F-22 class aircraft would be another 5th gen fighter. At the same time, newer more stealthy heavy UCAVs will be developed by the 2040 period. Perhaps even new propulsion systems.

As of today, it is simple. You want to kill a 5th gen aircraft, you need another 5th gen aircraft.

Also, I don't see the point of missiles seekers carrying AESA systems, it simply doesn't make sense. The module count will be too low and interference will be too high. On a 150-200mm array, how many T/R modules do you expect to carry? This will also reduce the angle at which it can detect and seek targets, since AESA has greater interference than regular slotted arrays at wide angles.

 

[asianobserve]

Satellites will join in to detect 5th gen fighters, well as soon as PAKFA and J20 come into service. The same can be said on how to counter F-22 and F-35 though. But detecting is one thing targeting is another.