Kaveri Engine

ersakthivel

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it all sounds nice, by saying ,give it to the HAL. It has experience.

HAL is far more experienced than ADA and GTRE no doubt.

But the reason organizations like ADA and GTRE were tasked with tejas and Kaveri is the failure of HAL to induct any successful product of global standards with IAF help.

If at all HAL had done 10 percent of what das says it can do till the seventies , organizations like ADA and GTRE would not exist today.

pity is HAL is wrangling with IAF to induct s prop driven basic trainer into service in time.

So when will HAL finish tejas and Kaveri to IAF's satisfaction? Only God knows.

GTRE and ADA were basically created to fix accountbability. HAL's primary job being a production agency of imported TOT fighters lets it get away with murder on development front. Case in point is the troubles at Sitara and HTT-40 program.
 

he-man

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I have come to this thread after 8 months,,had fight with some drdo/HAL trolls here claiming kaveri will indeed be workable and may power amca.

So where are those guys who banned me from saying that??
Its official now.............kaveri won't be used for any fighter.
 

Dhairya Yadav

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one day, kaveri will work, if amca project survives, it can be fitted on it . However,i doubt it will be used on tejas. We cannot abandon this because we have stupidly spent too much capital on this. Like rafale deal,we dont have much choice. I wonder how overconfident those people were who said we will build it in seven yrs. Even china imports engines for its fighters!
 
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Dhairya Yadav

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personally, i think that soln to some of the problems of kaveri can be given by ISRO. This is not their field, but they may provide some vital insights...
 

Twinblade

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Saurav Jha: And what is the status of the flagship Turbofan development, the Kaveri?

Avinash Chander: Kaveri was tested continuously for 53 hours on a flying test bed in Russia where all the major parameters were proven. There were certain observations which are now being addressed at the lab level. We have put up a proposal to the government to continue. So that we have a viable engine at the end of it. More importantly Kaveri will have to be modified for use in the unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV). As that comes under MTCR and nobody will give us engines. So Kaveri will essentially be a lifeline for that program.
Saurav Jha: Turning to the Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine. What is the status of that program?

Avinash Chander: KMGT has been taken up as a major joint activity between DRDO and industry. Because it has vast potential.
Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister
 

ersakthivel

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I have come to this thread after 8 months,,had fight with some drdo/HAL trolls here claiming kaveri will indeed be workable and may power amca.
So what is going to power AMCA now?
RD-93 perhaps?
So where are those guys who banned me from saying that??
Its official now.............kaveri won't be used for any fighter.
Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister

Saurav Jha: And what is the status of the flagship Turbofan development, the Kaveri?

Avinash Chander: Kaveri was tested continuously for 53 hours on a flying test bed in Russia where all the major parameters were proven. There were certain observations which are now being addressed at the lab level. We have put up a proposal to the government to continue. So that we have a viable engine at the end of it.

More importantly Kaveri will have to be modified for use in the unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV). As that comes under MTCR and nobody will give us engines. So Kaveri will essentially be a lifeline for that program.

Saurav Jha: Turning to the Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine. What is the status of that program?

Avinash Chander: KMGT has been taken up as a major joint activity between DRDO and industry. Because it has vast potential.

Saurav Jha: What is the status of that program?

Avinash Chander: Designs are getting finalized. We are going through the final stages of reviews.
kaveri is officially "delinked " from tejas. if GTRE improves K-9 to 84 Kn thrust level in a decade and proves its worth, then when the 40 tejas mk1s come back for a new engine after the GE-404's life is over , it can be fitted with K-9. K-9 and GE-404 have the same form fit.

Also the K-10 project will take a lot of tech from K-9. The core may be new., but otherwise when fully developed it too can be used as replacement engine for GE-414 IN S6 on tejas mk2 provided both have the same form fit.

Of course there is no guarantee that it will be used. But if it proves a worthy engine and has the same form fit as GE-414 IN S 6 then there is no bar on it to put one or two engines in the tejas mk2 airframe and test its performance.

In K-9 what was achieved was crucial validation of thermodynamic and fluid flow concepts that will form the base for all future engine development.

You could have waited one more month before making your great comeback post.

Timing is not right. And this is not the troll forum were you can keep on dumping BS with known anti tejas trolls like sancho.

So there was justification for your previous ban. Don't worry much about that. Concentrate on making meaningful posts in future.
 
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More importantly Kaveri will have to be modified for use in the unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV). As that comes under MTCR and nobody will give us engines.
I guess this means sooner or later the indigenous engine program will be a complete success like Indian missile and space technology and will ensure large number of orders.
 

ersakthivel

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What is the point of getting technology if you don't factor that in your contract that I will substitute your materials with my products made from my materials. Not one of them have been done, nor substituted as yet.
We have MIDHANI which is supposed to be developing aircraft materials – we don't use any of those materials in aircraft production within the country. We import all of them. We import carbon fibers for the LCA. So the LCA is quite import-dependent, for those of you who don't know.

-Air marshal matheswaran
matheswaran claims that Midhani produces nothing,

MIDHANI - Titanium & Titanium Alloys
Titan 12/15----Excellent resistance to corrosion by a wide range of natural and artificial environment ---Excellent strength to weight ratio in view of low density and high strength---Airframes, aircraft engine parts, gas compression, chemical desalination, marine components, plate heat-exchangers, platinized anodes, surgicals implants, anodes for chlor-alkali cells, jigs, fixtures and baskets for electro plating.

MIDHANI - Clientele

Client list mentions HAL.
MIDHANI - Clientele
then where are the products sold?


Broadsword: Strategic materials producer, Midhani, on high growth curve

http://www.midhani.gov.in/annl_reps/ar-09-10/ar-0910-eng.pdf

American, Japanese and European non-proliferation officials are keenly aware that Hyderabad based company, Mishra Dhatu Nigam (Midhani), supplies key materials for India's nuclear, space and missile programmes. Midhani figures on all these countries' "Entity Lists", which have legally blocked supplies of materials, know-how and equipment.

But this international blockade has been in vain, I learn, during an exclusive visit to this most secretive of defence PSUs. "Despite the sanctions", says Chairman and Managing Director (CMD), K Narayana Rao, "Midhani today manufactures the world's best maraging steel, a critical component in nuclear reactors, fuel enrichment centrifuges, missiles and space rockets. The Indian Space Research Organisation's GSLV rockets are clad in Midhani's maraging steel."

Such breakthroughs in strategic materials have placed Midhani in an unusual position. With international sanctions still in place, Midhani has joined one of the world's most challenging, futuristic and expensive projects: The International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, or ITER, a $10 billion, multinational project that aims to generate electricity through nuclear fusion by 2018. India joined the project in 2005.

"We have produced a material called Low Activation Ferretic Martinsitic Steel, which the ITER project urgently needs", explains a Midhani scientist. "This steel must have very low activation, allowing it to be placed in a highly radioactive environment (e.g. inside a reactor) without becoming highly radioactive itself. The ITER authorities are presently evaluating it at the Institute of Plasma Research in Gandhinagar."

This foray into ITER is a one-time thing. Midhani remains a boutique manufacturer, focused exclusively on high performance materials for India's space, nuclear and defence programmes to save them from being hostage to a supplier abroad. This is production at the cutting edge, groping in the dark, mixing and matching elements to develop materials that users have defined only as a set of properties.

"We experiment, we play with Molly", explains Narayana Rao, describing the search for special alloys. Noting my startled look, he elaborates, "Molly is short for Molybdenum, an element that gives special properties to steel."

Midhani works in close partnership with the Defence Materials Research Laboratory (DMRL), located next door. DMRL, focusing on fundamental research, develops new alloys and materials; Midhani scales up DMRL's laboratory production into industrial production.

Set up in 1972, Midhani's mandate was to indigenously produce materials for India's strategic programmes, without regard to cost or profitability. Today, Midhani delivers not only critical materials but hefty profits as well. Midhani is now a Mini Ratna, Category-1 company; its profits have gone up six-fold in the last four years to Rs 40 crores in 2008-09.

With Midhani's regular customers ramping up operations, that bottom line is poised to grow. From an average of 4-5 launches a year, ISRO is stepping up to 8 launches per year. And since nuclear power generation is a growth sector, the demand for reactor materials is likely to rise sharply. "BHEL and L&T have got a steam generator order for the Indian 700 MW Pressurised Heavy Water Reactor (PHWR)", says Narayana Rao. "I need to be ready with my equipment and materials."

The older Indian reactors, such as those at Kalpakkam, are also replacing critical components. Only Midhani supplies the metals needed for this.

Midhani has begun a Rs 200 crores expansion plan, with Rs 100 crores from its internal accruals supplemented by Rs 100 crores of equity participation by the MoD. It is adding a high-tech, 10-tonne vacuum arc refining (VAR) furnace, in which molten metal is purified by dripping it, drop-by-drop, through vacuum. The impurities, which become into gas at those temperatures, are sucked away by the vacuum.

Also being procured is a 6000-tonne forge press, to press steel into sheets as thin as 4 millimetres, needed for India's rocket programme.

"Today I'm running 2000 tonnes of products per year", says Midhani's CMD. "When the expansion plan is completed by 2010-2011, our output will double to 4000 tonnes. Turnover will go from Rs 300 crores to Rs 500 crores."
Indian Developments in Materials for Military Aero Engines | Frontier India

All the three kaveri engine fan discs have been produced in DMRL using Ti64 alloy,

It supplies BT-20 and BT-18 alloys to SU-30 MKI program,

hollow with internal cooling channels aerofoil castings by using CM247LC which should meet stringent quality standards.

These DS castings were qualified for air worthiness by CEMILAC for kaveri engines.

vaccume diffusion brazing process for tip and root of HPY blade of Kaveri engine has been developed in collaboration with Godrej and Boyce, Mumbai.

Recently, HAL (Koraput) has also developed shroud castings in CM247LC and 718 alloys for Kaveri engine and these castings have been qualified by CEMILAC. HAL has also acquired capability to manufacture DS and single crystal castings of turbine airfoils for Sukhoi aircraft engine AL31FP.

The development of Platinum-Aluminide coatings and thermal barrier coatings (TBC) are also in progress at DMRL in association with ARCI, Hyderabad.

Compressor blades of a α2-Ti3Al TiAl alloy have been forged at HAL (F&F). DMRL produced by isothermal forging route.


The site has details which list out several materials supplied by Midhani to Tejas and SUkhoi program and our Air marshals express their complete ignorance of it, even though they have the HAL balance sheet in hand!!!
 

Punya Pratap

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Engine issues mean China can't power J-15, J-16 fighters
Staff Reporter 2014-09-09 11:17 (GMT+8)
A WS-10A Taihang engine. (Internet photo)
A WS-10A Taihang engine. (Internet photo)

China is unable to produce advanced fighters such as the J-15 and the J-16 in large numbers because it lacks the proper engines to power the aircraft, according to the Moscow-based Military-Industrial Courier on Sept. 8.

According to Kanwa Defense Review, a magazine operated by military analyst Andrei Chang, also known as Pinkov, China is not even capable of producing J-11B fighters due to problems with Shenyang Liming Aircraft Engine Company's WS-10A engine. Similar problems led the People's Liberation Army Navy to cancel their plans to install the WS-10A in the J-15, a carrier-based fighter designed to serve aboard the Liaoning, China's first aircraft carrier.

Both the PLA Air Force and Navy Air Force have asked to replace the WS-10A with the more reliable Russian-built AL-31F engines, the magazine stated. China is unlikely to get enough AL-31F engines to power all of its J-15 and J-16 fighters when production starts on the aircraft however. The only option left for China is to stop producing more advanced fighters until it is capable of designing the engines the aircraft need.

Sources from the Chinese aviation industry told the Military-Industrial Courier that the PLA is losing its patience with the WS-10A engines. Without proper competition among state-run engine producers, the source said that China is unable to design the engines it needs to power its new aircraft. The Central Military Commission of the Communist Party of China suggested that the PLA Air Force use domestic engines anyway to boost the economy

Lessons for India : Get your own engine and do whatever it takes. Then you can produce as many fighters as you want to become powerful. Indeginous parts = more jobs= better economy

I think the above is as simple as it gets !!
 

Illusive

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Engine issues mean China can't power J-15, J-16 fighters
Staff Reporter 2014-09-09 11:17 (GMT+8)
A WS-10A Taihang engine. (Internet photo)
A WS-10A Taihang engine. (Internet photo)

China is unable to produce advanced fighters such as the J-15 and the J-16 in large numbers because it lacks the proper engines to power the aircraft, according to the Moscow-based Military-Industrial Courier on Sept. 8.

According to Kanwa Defense Review, a magazine operated by military analyst Andrei Chang, also known as Pinkov, China is not even capable of producing J-11B fighters due to problems with Shenyang Liming Aircraft Engine Company's WS-10A engine. Similar problems led the People's Liberation Army Navy to cancel their plans to install the WS-10A in the J-15, a carrier-based fighter designed to serve aboard the Liaoning, China's first aircraft carrier.

Both the PLA Air Force and Navy Air Force have asked to replace the WS-10A with the more reliable Russian-built AL-31F engines, the magazine stated. China is unlikely to get enough AL-31F engines to power all of its J-15 and J-16 fighters when production starts on the aircraft however. The only option left for China is to stop producing more advanced fighters until it is capable of designing the engines the aircraft need.

Sources from the Chinese aviation industry told the Military-Industrial Courier that the PLA is losing its patience with the WS-10A engines. Without proper competition among state-run engine producers, the source said that China is unable to design the engines it needs to power its new aircraft. The Central Military Commission of the Communist Party of China suggested that the PLA Air Force use domestic engines anyway to boost the economy

Lessons for India : Get your own engine and do whatever it takes. Then you can produce as many fighters as you want to become powerful. Indeginous parts = more jobs= better economy

I think the above is as simple as it gets !!
With the amount of foreign reserves they have they should just buy of the schematics and the technique to produce them even if it takes a trillion dollars, the Russians might oblige.

Whereas for us we need to put a lot of money into development which we currently are not willing or able to put, plus do whatever it takes espionage, reverse engineer. Even with the problems facing them the chinese are way ahead of us both in scale and research.
 

sgarg

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Indian thought of designing LCA and Kaveri engine from scratch is actually very good. It is much better than Chinese way of copying other's tech.

India must develop fortitude. Key technologies like aero-engines for fighters is a long and tedious fight. Losing patience is not the way.

Kavery must be tried on both Tejas and further twin engine fighter. The imports can stop any day and will definitely stop if a major war breaks out in the West.
 

sgarg

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It is interesting that Kavery is resurrected due to UCAV development. India cannot import an aero-engine for UCAV due to MTCR restrictions.

This shows that there is NO alternative to local development of technologies. Either develop OR always stay a third world nation. The choice is yours.

China spends 20 times on defence R&D compared to India. People forget that defence technologies have extensive use in civilian field as a lot of tech is dual use. So defence R&D is actually nation building exercise. The main issue is effectiveness and optimum use of funds that can happen with involving private sector in R&D.
 

Pulkit

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@Kunal Biswas
I was having a argument with a friend who was saying we don't have the jet engine... to which i was saying we have one "Kaveri" but it doesnot meet the requirements .... but it doesnot mean we don't have one...
what is the defination of having and not having a jet engine.....

It can be used in Aircraft but will not be giving the desired output is one thing.. but it still remains a jet engine.... yes or not.....
 
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Kunal Biswas

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===================>>

Kaveri's last big activity was in 2011, when it took a flight test in Russia fitted on the Il-76 transport plane. Although 90 per cent of the flight envelop was covered, at least five problems showed up, according to scientists. Since then, the GTRE has worked on the nagging issues and would take Kaveri to its logical conclusion up to certification, Dr. Tamilmani said on Tuesday while announcing an upcoming conference of the organisation. the GTRE plans to show the engine's performance first on an Il-76 plane and then as the second engine fitted on a twin-engined fighter like MiG-29. It would be tuned to certification standards. "When we do that, we will have the first indigenous [aero]engine with proven and certified performance for exploitation" — meaning it would be rendered suitable for fitting on future Indian-made military or passenger aircraft — Dr. Ramanarayanan told The Hindu later.

Dr. Tamilmani said a ready engine would precede an indigenous aircraft programme, a model followed worldwide.

Source : New tailwinds for Kaveri engine - The Hindu

==================

Yes .. !

@Kunal Biswas
I was having a argument with a friend who was saying we don't have the jet engine... to which i was saying we have one "Kaveri" but it doesnot meet the requirements .... but it doesnot mean we don't have one...
what is the defination of having and not having a jet engine.....

It can be used in Aircraft but will not be giving the desired output is one thing.. but it still remains a jet engine.... yes or not.....
 
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sgarg

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The Kavery is an in-development engine. It is not certified to be fitted into fighter planes yet.

The issue of thrust etc. is a fabricated issue. The engine fitted on JF-17 is no better than Kavery. You can say at most that it is not suitable for Tejas fighter. Does not mean you cannot fit it into another fighter. The fact is that Kavery is absolutely fine for a two engine fighter.

Kavery is also fine for UCAV.

The only issue is completing development and certifying the engine which may need funds and time. The delays happen due to GOI sanctioning stuff in fits and starts. People think it is DRDO that is delaying but many times it is just GOI that does not provide the funds.

I am sure Kavery program will be completed and the engine will be used.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Saurav Jha: And what is the status of the flagship Turbofan development, the Kaveri?

Avinash Chander: Kaveri was tested continuously for 53 hours on a flying test bed in Russia where all the major parameters were proven 8) . There were certain observations which are now being addressed at the lab level. We have put up a proposal to the government to continue. So that we have a viable engine at the end of it. More importantly Kaveri will have to be modified for use in the unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV). As that comes under MTCR and nobody will give us engines. So Kaveri will essentially be a lifeline for that program.
--------------------------
Saurav Jha: Turning to the Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine. What is the status of that program?

Avinash Chander: KMGT has been taken up as a major joint activity between DRDO and industry. Because it has vast potential.
Source : Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister
 
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The dry thrust of kaveri engine is in between 49-52kn.then what's the problem in putting it into LCA.at least DRDO should dare to have a test flight and analyse the result for further development.
 

sgarg

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There are older LCAs (TD series) that are no longer flying. One of these can be modified for Kavery engine. What is the harm in trying.

The engine may be under-powered but fitting into an aircraft will help understand and refine its performance.

KMGT is very good opportunity too where Navy has a regular requirement of gas turbines for missile boats and patrol ships.
 

Illusive

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The Kavery is an in-development engine. It is not certified to be fitted into fighter planes yet.

The issue of thrust etc. is a fabricated issue. The engine fitted on JF-17 is no better than Kavery. You can say at most that it is not suitable for Tejas fighter. Does not mean you cannot fit it into another fighter. The fact is that Kavery is absolutely fine for a two engine fighter.

Kavery is also fine for UCAV.

The only issue is completing development and certifying the engine which may need funds and time. The delays happen due to GOI sanctioning stuff in fits and starts. People think it is DRDO that is delaying but many times it is just GOI that does not provide the funds.

I am sure Kavery program will be completed and the engine will be used.
Agreed, but the programme failed to meet the desired results. Why couldn't a higher trust engine be developed should be addressed. I know its difficult for a country who's completely skipping previous generation engines to develop an engine fit for current gen fighters. Still its important that the requirements are met.

AMCA has to be powered by a indigenous engine and i think kaveri wont be suitable engine for a stealth plane.
 

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