Warriors of Gujarat

civfanatic

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The claim is not that the origins were in Uttar Pradesh but Ayodhya specifically. A number of upstarts who ventured into building an empire have claimed Ayodhya lineage, as it gave some legitimacy to their rule. This practice has been observed not just in numerorus south Indian ventures but in ones outside India as well. Who knows, there might be more kingdoms claiming Ayodhya lineage than the population of Ayodhya itself! :) BTW the legend that says that Chalukyas had their origin in Ayodhya goes along with the claim how they get their name as well. So you do believe how the Chalukyans were actually born? :)
Even many Southeast Asians claimed to be from Ayodhya. Most famous of these would be the Ayutthaya (Thai version of "Ayodhya") kingdom in Thailand. Even the modern Indonesian capital Jakarta has its ultimate etymology in Ayodhya.
 

Singh

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Interesting. I did know about the Ayodhya-connection of Thai Royal family, Ayudya is a royal surname for eg.
But I did not know about the rest. Can you guys give some links or expand on this ?
 

Tolaha

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Tolaha

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Interesting. Are you referring to the story of the Indian princess from Ayodhya marrying the Korean king Suro in 48 C.E.?
Yep, I am. And if you refer to the DFI link that I posted earlier, there is apparently a genetic study performed to confirm the veracity of those claims. But I reckon they would struggle to find the original genes of the Ikshwaku clan to be compared against! In my opinion, in those days, linkages to Ayodhya (and to Rama by extension) would be the equivalent of current day "blue/green eyes or fair skin and so we are Europeans" syndrome :heh:
 

LalTopi

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There was considerable missionary work earlier in the Century. Whole villages were converted from what I'm told, but I am not aware of the incentives, other than them really believing in the message that they received. Perhaps the British occupation played a part?

Why aren't you considered High Caste?
So they converted to Christianity? What region of Gujarat was this? In my case clan folklore says that our ancestors lost thir wealth and power due to refusal to convert to Islam, and hence resorted to menial labour. This seems conveniently romantic for my belief - I grew up outside India and so have limited personal experience of such. But on the other hand families have traced ancestry to the South Rajasthn North Gujarat region approximately 200 years ago I think, to current South Gujarat. It does beg the question about upward and downward mobility of caste based on power and wealth.
 

Simple_Guy

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Regarding Solankis being Chalukyas, it is a claim made by the Solankis themselves.
No it is not. The Solankis of Anahilvada make no mention of any connection with Deccan. These Gujarati warriors have retained their memory/lineage for more than a thousand years, and it is laughable to claim that their memories were erased a few decades before that.

If they had any connection to the Deccan Chalukya they would have broadcasted it in their inscriptions. In all likelihood they had a humble Gujarati Rajput origin. Just like the other clans like Chavda, Chudasama, Jhala, who were simple warriors before they gained the status of rulers in Gujarat.
 

Simple_Guy

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Lt. Colonel Ranjitsinhji of Nawanagar who had a distinguished military and sporting career.

Another famous modern warrior of Nawanagar was Major-General MS Himmatsinhji. born in 1897, educated in India and England, joined the Indian Army and saw service in World War I and World War II. After a distinguished Army career, he joined the Diplomatic Service. He became a member of the Central Legislative Assembly in 1946 and was later a member of the Constituent Assembly. He acted as one of the Whips of the Congress Party and was appointed Deputy Minister of Defence in 1950. The General Elections saw him returned unopposed to the House of the People from Halar in Saurashtra.

Himmatsinhji also served as governor of Himachal Pradesh in the 1950s. In 1951, he headed the Himmatsinhji Committee (also known as the North and North-East Border Committee) for a survey of the frontier situation.
 

Simple_Guy

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Himmatsinhji also served as governor of Himachal Pradesh in the 1950s.
In case any Punjabi chauvinist is upset at the fact that Himachal existed in the 1950s, and was not part of Punjab, please start another topic to discuss that issue. :cool2:
 

Libertarian

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The claim is not that the origins were in Uttar Pradesh but Ayodhya specifically. A number of upstarts who ventured into building an empire have claimed Ayodhya lineage, as it gave some legitimacy to their rule.
The reason why I mentioned Uttar Pradesh and not Ayodha, was because people are more familiar with the former- while not many are aware that Ayodha is in North India.

Also, I researched the family history of the ruling Solankis of Gujarat and I failed to find any legetimate source connecting them with the Chaluklyas of South India. King Mularaja was the founder of the Solanki Dynasty in Gujarat and he did not have South Indian Chaluklya lineage and his rule in Gujarat was independent of the reigining clan in the South:

A history of India - August Friedrich Rudolf Hoernle, Herbert Alick Stark - Google Books
^Mulraja's father was from a pilgrim to Somnath in Gujarat, from Kanouj (UP) and his mother was a Chapotkata Princess of North Gujarat.

Regarding Solankis being Chalukyas, it is a claim made by the Solankis themselves. They too could have just claimed Ayodhya lineage, a direct connection rather. But they did it by claiming their line to be from the Chalukyans. And I havent come across any evidences that they aren't.
Hogwash!
If you disagree, then cite your source that state that Solankis of Gujarat and/or Rajasthan, claim South Indian Chalukya lineage. I will remind you again, if you fail to do so.

Tolaha said:
All southeners, not just the rulers, could have their origin in the North. And prior to that, in Central Asia or Asia Minor or Africa or wherever.....
Nope.
The non-Brahmin South Indian population is genetically different from the Brahmin South Indian population. The Brahmins in the South are migrants from the North. Even the Chalukya rulers are supposedly of the same stock as the Brahmins.


civfanatic said:
The same Chalukya dynasty did not rule just South and Central India, but also parts of modern-day Gujarat.
Only one fifth of Gujarat was ever under the control of the Southern Chalukya Dynasty:

^Just the Southern region of Gujarat was under the Chalukya dynasty. Saurastra, Kutch, North and Central Gujarat were not under their rule.

civfanatic said:
When the Arabs invaded Gujarat in the 8th century, they were repulsed by Avanijanashraya Pulakesi, a Chalukya general who was related to the reigning Chalukya emperor.
You mislead people, when you only tell half the story. The truth is that it was actually a combined effort on the part of Nagabhata I of Gurjara Prathira Dynasty of North India, and the Chalukya Dynasty of South India that succeded in warding off the Arab forces:

A Silence in the City and Other Stories - Marie Cruz Gabriel - Google Books

The engagment between Arab and Chalukya forces took place at Navsari. Here it is on a map:

^Navsari borders present day Maharashtra.

civfanatic said:
Gurjara/Gujjar =/= Gujarati. The Gurjars themselves were pastoralists from modern-day Rajasthan and NW India, who expanded south into Gujarat and east into the Gangetic plain during this time (8th-10th centuries). Some even give the Gurjars non-Indian origins, from Central or Western Asia, but I find that unlikely.
Do you not realize that the state of Gujarat acquired its name from Gurjars? The Abu mountains, the "abode" of the Gurjars, are located in South Rajasthan- right on the border with Gujarat. Here's a map:

Mount Abu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Arbuda Mountains (Abu Parvat / Mount Abu) region is said to be original abode of the famous Gurjars. The association of the Gurjars with the mountain is noticed in many inscriptions and epigraphs including Tilakamanjari of Dhanpala.[1] These Gurjars (Gujars or Gujjars) migrated from Arbuda mountain region and as early as sixth century CE, they set up one or more principalities in Rajasthan and Gujarat. Almost all or a larger part of Rajasthan and Gujarat had been known as Gurjaratra (country ruled or protected by the Gurjars) or Gurjarabhumi (land of the Gurjars) for centuries prior to Mughal period.[2]
These Gurjars migrated from the Arbuda mountain region and as early as in the sixth century A.D., they set up one or more principalities in Rajasthan and Gujarat. Whole or a larger part of Rajasthan and Gujarat had been long known as Gurjaratra (country ruled or protected by the Gurjars) or Gurjarabhumi (land of the Gurjars) for centuries prior to the Mughal period.
^I have relatives that reside in Mount Abu and I've visited that area when I younger (lived there for like 10 - 15 days at a time). Until recently, I actually didn't even realize, that Abu mountains fell on to the Rajasthan side.

Lastly, Gujarat is a part of North West India. To be precise, Gujarat is the Southern most region of the North West Indian corridor (or the Western most region of India). Gujarat is not South India.


civfanatic said:
It is overwhelmingly agreed by almost all modern historians that the Chalukyas were indigenous to Karnataka. Most of these theories of northern origin are pure speculation and not based on any concrete evidence. It's actually quite astonishing that you are arguing this.
What's astonishing is the fact that Gujaratis are having their history stolen. Moving on...

civfanatic said:
There is not a single source which identifies the Chalukyas as brahmins, so this is irrelevant.
Actually, your very own source from the Chalukya Dynasty Wikipedia page, claims Chalukyas as being of Brahmin stock:

Ancient Indian History and Civilization - Sailendra Nath Sen - Google Books

^Brahmins are not native to South India. This same souce also goes on to state that the Solankis of Annila-Pattana (which is in Gujarat) have no connection whatsoever, to the Chaluklyas of South India. (Anahila-Pattana is in Gujarat.)
 
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Singh

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The non-Brahmin South Indian population is genetically different from the Brahmin South Indian population. The Brahmins in the South are migrants from the North. Even the Chalukya rulers are supposedly of the same stock as the Brahmins.
Genetically South Indians have more affinity for each other irresp of castes. In other words, South Indian Brahmins have more affinity with other South Indian groups rather than with North Indian Brahmins.
 

Libertarian

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Genetically South Indians have more affinity for each other irresp of castes. In other words, South Indian Brahmins have more affinity with other South Indian groups rather than with North Indian Brahmins.
Yeah, of-course North Indian Brahmins are less ASI. But Tamil Brahmins, I believe, cluster with the non-Brahmin North and Central Indian populations. Obviously, living down South, they they are somewhat mixed with the local population there. Though, when Brahmins initially made their move down South, they were probably less ASI and no different from their Northern counterparts.

http://books.google.com/books?id=pK...APt8oCACQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
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Singh

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Yeah, of-course North Indian Brahmins are less ASI. But Tamil Brahmins, I believe, cluster with the non-Brahmin North and Central Indian populations. Obviously, living down South, they they are somewhat mixed with the local population there. Though, when Brahmins initially made their move down South, they were probably less ASI and no different from their Northern counterparts.

Migrant Brhmaṇas in Northern India: Their Settlement and General Impact C ... - Swati Datta - Google Books
I don't know when this book was published. South Indian Brahmins cluster with other South Indian groups. North Indian Brahmins have lesser ASI component, greater ANI component, and a significant other components too(Caucasian).

Another research published a month or so back has shown that Indians generally intermingled freely, and this stopped somewhere around 4-1.9 thousand years ago, this explains why the hallmark of Indian subcontinent is ANI+ASI.
 

PredictablyMalicious

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From what I've seen gujaratis are rather short and small, perhaps even more so than South Indians. Not sure if that is due to their horrific carb laden, protein lacking, cholesterol increasing diet or genes. They don't look like the stereotypical robust north West Indian phenotype.
 
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TrueSpirit

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Read the political history of South India from c.1350-1550. There was near-constant warfare between Vijayanagar (another Kannadiga empire) and the Muslim states in the Deccan, along with all their consorted allies. Most of these wars were won by Vijayanagar.

It is a myth that South India was somehow "saved" because North India bore the brunt of the warfare. South India was saved because, under Vijayanagar and even under the preceding dynasties, it was much more militarized and capable of conducting war. Vijayanagar is often called an "Indian war-state" for a reason; its political, economic, and social systems were all geared towards one aim, namely the conduct of war.

In the end, it would be another Deccani power, the Marathas, who would supplant Muslim power in North India.
There would be no Hindu in India had it not been for the Rajputs who successfully defended India from 738 AD to 1192 AD (nearly 500 years) & continued to mount a fierce resistance against Arabs as well as mighty Turks-who ruled from Vienna to Dacca (& whom the Rajputs eventually defeated & expelled from their lands).

They continued doing so throughout the history of India until they were subdued by the Marathas (who were the de-facto rulers of Indian sub-continent even after 3rd battle of Panipat; think Mahadji Scindhia).

Sikhs too played a pivotal role in that respect (at a much later stage, when forced conversions were at an all-time high).

Anyway, Vijaynagar was obliterated by 1565 (within 200 years) while the Rajputs & others continued to hold their own, & eventually subdue the Muslim opposition. They came too late & were exterminated, too early. Unlike the Rajputs.

Overall, the 3 main powers that we owe our civilizational continuity & existence to are : Rajputs, Marathas & Sikhs.

Vijaynagar comes a very distant fourth for obvious reasons.

Denying the indisputable contribution of Rajputs & Sikhs two, & proclaiming that only Vijayanagar mattered, is delusional.

Maharana Pratap & Shivaji are the warrior-icons in modern-day India. Hence, you find their mention, photographs in all offices, busts, statues etc. all over India.

Hard to trace anyone from Vijaynagar enjoying such respect (rather, reverence) & admiration. Though, Vijayanagar did very well geo-politically (diplomatic maneuvers in a hostile environment), economically & from an architecture/civic perspective, which is evident even today.

As someone rightly said: Don't SHOW. People KNOW.

Indians KNOW their history as it has been passed on to them by their ancestors, which is manifested in their veneration & awe on mention of these great stalwarts. They do not need/believe propaganda.

Efforts to brainwash informed Indians through propaganda has hardly ever succeeded, especially, trying that in Information age is quite lame.

Sikhs & Rajputs in their ancestral tradition continue to be overwhelmingly represented in Indian ARMY.

Just check the relative % (of representation in IA) from each community/state of India & find out who is on top.

They defended India in the past. They continue to do so today. Ignoring their contribution simply reinforces everyone's belief that you continue to be a Southie supremacist & a reckless hater of everyone/everything in North India, no matter what you proclaim.

Something for your consumption:

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=-U8IUoC_tP0C&pg=PA157

This is what it states:

Of the figures for the intake of officer cadets into the IMA during the period 1983-87 by region, a substantial 23.24% were from Uttar Pradesh–Uttarakhand.

Other states included Punjab (12.32%), Haryana (9.42%), Chandigarh (1.48%), Delhi (9.21%), Kerala (5.26%), Himachal Pradesh (3.73%), Jammu and Kashmir (2.97%), & Rajasthan (4.33%).

Under represented states includes Andhra Pradesh (3.78%), Assam (0.55%), Bihar (5.34%), West Bengal (2.47%), Gujarat (0.52%), Karnataka (3.02%), Maharashtra (4.22%), Madhya Pradesh (3.89%), Odisha (1.32%) & Tamil Nadu (2.30%).
Now, Go figure.

This is not current (still, more or less relevant/valid) & this is not relative % but based on absolute numbers.

Still, we know the populations of each states, so we can find out which states have the highest representation in Indian Army officer cadre.

The picture in non-officer cadre, i.e. JCO, NCO, Jawan level is even much more heavily skewed in favour of North Indians.


Evidently, the more the things change, the more they remain the same.

Second, some things never change (e.g. born killing instinct which some have communities have much more than others)
 
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TrueSpirit

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From what I've seen gujaratis are rather short and small, perhaps even more so than South Indians. Not sure if that is due to their horrific carb laden, protein lacking, cholesterol increasing diet or genes. They don't look like the stereotypical robust north West Indian phenotype.
Doesn't matter. Gujrat produced Bhagwan Shri Krishna (the ultimate leader who ruled from a Gujrati principality & made it his home).

Sardar Patel.

Mahatma GANDHI.

Narendra Modi
 

parijataka

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Genetically South Indians have more affinity for each other irresp of castes. In other words, South Indian Brahmins have more affinity with other South Indian groups rather than with North Indian Brahmins.
There is also the question of language - a Gujarati brahmin may have more empathy with any other Gujarati, similarly with a Maharashtrian brahmin, Kannadiga brahmin, Tamizh brahmin etc.

Whereas when we say N India I think we mean the Hindi speaking states.
 

parijataka

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From what I can see, none of the dynasties and warrior lineages mentioned in this thread are native to Gujarat.

It was not "Gujjus" who showed a strong resolve, but various Rajput and Deccani rulers, who happened to rule parts of the territory we now call "Gujarat".
IMHO Rajputs, Sikhs and Marathas were what saved N India from capitulating to foreign invasions and that includes Rajputs of Gujarat

And insulated S India from much mayhem.
 
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Singh

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Doesn't matter. Gujrat produced Bhagwan Shri Krishna (the ultimate leader who ruled from a Gujrati principality & made it his home).
His home also sunk in the ocean. Krishna's "bhoomi" is definitely Vrindavan-Barsana-Mathura belt.

Sardar Patel.
Mahatma GANDHI.
Narendra Modi
Narendra Modi has done nothing on the level of Patel or Gandhi, lets not buy into the hype without testing him.
 

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