Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

[Kunal Biswas]

India`s own effort to upgrade existing T-90S

India`s own effort to upgrade existing T-90S

User-trials of a T-90S MBT equipped with IRDE-developed and BEL-built commander's panoramic sight and driver's uncooled thermal imager (derived from that developed for the Arjun Mk1A MBT) have just gotten underway. If all goes well, then these two items will be retrofitted on to both the first 310 T-90S MBTs acquired for the Indian Army just about a decade ago, as well as on 1,000 T-72M1 MBTs that are due to undergo a deep upgrade. For both MBT-types, VRDE has already developed the APU, which too is now undergoing user-trials.

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The CVRDE-upgraded prototype of the T-90S has done away with the T01-K04 and substitutes it with the IRDE-developed and BEL-built commander's panoramic sight (which houses a SAGEM-built MATIS-STD thermal imager operating in the 3-5 micron bandwidth), which has resulted in enhanced static visibility levels for both the gunner and commander.

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In addition, the IV528-2 digital ballistics computer has given way to an indigenous solution developed by TATA Power Strategic Electronics Division, while the IRDE-developed driver's uncooled thermal imaging night sight has replaced the TVN-5 night-vision device.

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Furthermore, a DEAL-developed MMW-based IFF system has been installed for enhancing the MBT crew's situational awareness.

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Lastly, the T-90S' track-wraps have been indigenised by AMW-MGM Forgings Pvt Ltd, which has also developed tracks with metal/rubber-brushed parallel pin-jointed gearings, stamped track-links adapted to accept rubber pads, with steel needles on the track-pins providing conductivity and picking up static electricity from rubber-brushed pin-jointed gearings during movement.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

With Ukrainian Specs here :

Ukraine intends to invite India to modernize Russian T-90?

In the network appeared ( http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-144.html ) the image of the T-90S, which were implemented Ukrainian proposals for modernization of the machine. It is seen that the most of the Kharkov designers previously accumulated reserve for his tank "MBT". In particular, the commander's panoramic sight mounted NCP-6, a remote-controlled machine gun 12.7 mm. Armor "Kontakt-5" is replaced by a new protivotandemnuyu "Doublet." She also posted as side skirts. Plan to install the active protection and jamming IEDs. Apparently, the ammunition has been moved to zabashenny box. Engine B-92S2 will be replaced with 6TD-3 of 1400 hp, which should increase the mobility ,characteristics upgraded machine. The emergence of this pattern creates a certain intrigue. The fact is that at a recent exhibition in Delhi Russian side presented its version of the upgraded T-90S. The car attracted a lot of attention to the Indians. On the other hand, about a year circulating rumors that the Kharkov, allegedly, was taken from an unnamed country a copy of the T-90 in the desert coloring. Quite possibly, the Indians will want to compare the Russian modernized T-90 modernization of the Ukrainian and choose the best option. Although it is known that the license for the production of T-90 in India entails severe limitations on intervention in the design of the tank. Therefore, there is considerable doubt that the Indians want to quarrel with the Russian side, ordering upgrades Kharkov.

Andrew Tarasyuk (Kiev). Especially for the " Bulletin of Mordovia . "

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Gur Khan: What can I say? Market introduction of the T-90ms clearly showed who the leader in the world tank manufacturing and where is the place of our closest competitors: Ukraine is selling right and left T- 72, it inherited from the Soviet Union at absolutely rock-bottom, dumped. And now reached and the "modernization of the T-90C." However, the latter is an international scandal reeks!

And, at this time will be just India, allegedly transferred to Ukraine to study the pattern and modernization of the T-90C "Bishma" - under contract with the Russian Federation, On the other hand, Ukraine's proposal to upgrade T-90 look pretty on paper. In practice, the motor stated characteristics in power and with acceptable reliability they still have not and will not be long. Its stated as the standard power plant back in 2009 for the tank "MBT-M 'but the car was released and is still riding with the engine in 1200l.s. with its own weight of over 51 tons. Features DZ "knife" and "Doublet" I described earlier here and here - in fact, they are not so brilliant as it is stated in the Ukrainian advertising. Panoramic sight PNA-6 certainly better Russian commander unit of observation PN-5 "Agat-M", but before the panoramic sight of Russian modernized T-90ms it is still very far - especially for weight, dimensions. Thus, the installation of DZ "Doublet" and PNA-6 on the upgraded T-90 Ukraine increases its mass by about 4 tons. Given zabashennoy niche with ammunition and a longer logistics, mass upgraded tank was estimated 51-53 tonnes, with 48-49 tons of a Russian T-90ms. What gives? This automatically cuts the strategic mobility of the machine - travel through many bridges for it is automatically closed, the main military transport aircraft IL-76 as well not be able to carry. Yes, India is now in the United States has ordered a lifting C-17 transports.

Gur Khan attacks!: Украина ворует русские танки!

With Indian Upgrade above we can get rest from Ukrainian Upgrade..

We can also allow Israeli equipment used on Arjun MK-2..

 

[farhan_9909]

i agree you can

but it doesnt make sense
manufacture new tank
After few months send it for upgrade

and costly as well
with that money India can directly procure more t90MS

 

[p2prada]

i agree you can

but it doesnt make sense
manufacture new tank
After few months send it for upgrade

and costly as well
with that money India can directly procure more t90MS

Why? T-90s will finish nearly 15 years, that's half their life.

The thing is the volume of our orders are so high that MLUs come up during production run.

The same with MKI and even the Americans with their F-22s. Their MLUs are being planned now, just that their production run is over. With more orders the MLUs and production will happen side by side like MKI.

Btw, similar or better upgrades will be incorporated during the production run along with upgrade of old tanks. So, the tanks that are yet to be produced will conform to newer standards and not older.

It seems a separate order may be placed for T-90MS tanks, at least that's what is said in Ajai Shukla's article,

In a first, Indian tank brigades to defend China border

According to MoD sources, the army has demanded the purchase of additional T-90 tanks for these six armoured regiments. India has already bought 657 T-90S tanks from Russia and obtained a licence to build another 1,000. Now, in addition to these purchases, the army wants the latest version of this tank, called the T-90MS.

So, both MLUs and T-90MS orders may happen side by side.

 

[Akim]

i agree you can

but it doesnt make sense
manufacture new tank
After few months send it for upgrade

and costly as well
with that money India can directly procure more t90MS

Why to overpay for a new technique, when it is possible to obtain the same parametrs from old. Modernization of tank of Т-64B to the level of BM Bulat stands in 4 times cheaper, than purchase of BM Oplot. And a tank after modernization corresponds to the level of Т-80UD and Т- 90. Old tanks can declare oneself also. Whether not to know you .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There are two reasons, one have mentioned about flaws in T-90MS in this forum also why India should not buy T-90MS not coz of specs but a Single fundamental reason in this thread only..

And there is no need to send new tanks there but if the updated tank is excepted than rest can be done here with expertise, same what we do with T-90S here.

 

[cobra commando]

//I really can't wait to see how KMDB will redesign T-90S... but You all can be sure of one, Russians from UVZ will get mad when they see how well Ukrainians redesigned and upgraded their product. //

Aww.. c'mon! why do you always give the Russkies such a hard time,i mean atleast give some credit to their T90MS, no?

 

[Damian]

Aww.. c'mon! why do you always give the Russkies such a hard time,i mean atleast give some credit to their T90MS, no?

Why should I give them credit? UVZ was never progressive and not the best design bureau in Soviet Union, this title belongs to KMDB from Kharkive, Ukraine, and Ukranians just do things better.

 

[sayareakd]

we should have open tender for tanks, just like MRCA tender, let all see which is best.
Who knows next time T90 MS would cost us 300% of T90S, plus additional money for APU, soft kill systems etc.

 

[Akim]

we should have open tender for tanks, just like MRCA tender, let all see which is best.
Who knows next time T90 MS would cost us 300% of T90S, plus additional money for APU, soft kill systems etc.

When you bought Т-90S, you did not simply have a choice. To you, then, not lining up a turn on a tender. And Pakistan purchased Т-80UD and India was quickly look for an alternative to him.

 

[kaustav2001]

It seems a separate order may be placed for T-90MS tanks, at least that's what is said in Ajai Shukla's article,
In a first, Indian tank brigades to defend China border
So, both MLUs and T-90MS orders may happen side by side.

Hmmm.. that would make sense & may perhaps be the only way out. Let Ukraine modernize our old T-90S @ the same time keep Russia(OEM happy & quite !!!) by ordering the new T-90MS.
Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[p2prada]

When T-90s were chosen we were under sanctions at the time. Even France had sanctions against us for offensive weapons, Russia was the only choice because Ukraine was selling to Pakistan.

@Damian

Wouldn't it be right to say Ukranians are good with existing technology while UVZ and the erstwhile Omsk were developing new tanks like the Obj 195 and Obj 640 prototypes.

You can say UVZ has had more money to burn because of internal and export orders of over 2000 T-90 tanks since 1990s while KMDB has not had similar success at home or abroad. Now UVZ has the Armata UCP while KMDB do not have an equivalent development?

 

[Akim]

@p2prada
In the period of the USSR, products of Kharkiv, not exported, that is why she was not almost known in 90th. And regarding Russian "Armata" is PR. As a yeti. Nobody him did not see, but all it is said that he is.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is simple logic, you cant keep buying new things one have to maintain what is already bought..

 

[Damian]

When T-90s were chosen we were under sanctions at the time. Even France had sanctions against us for offensive weapons, Russia was the only choice because Ukraine was selling to Pakistan.

@Damian

Wouldn't it be right to say Ukranians are good with existing technology while UVZ and the erstwhile Omsk were developing new tanks like the Obj 195 and Obj 640 prototypes.

You can say UVZ has had more money to burn because of internal and export orders of over 2000 T-90 tanks since 1990s while KMDB has not had similar success at home or abroad. Now UVZ has the Armata UCP while KMDB do not have an equivalent development?

Not exactly, it is just a money problem, Russia have more money, so they perform better than Ukrainians, but this does not mean that KMDB is inferior to UVZ or other russian design bureaus.

KMDB had it's IV generation MBT the Object 477 Boxer/Molot, but due to collapse of soviet union and lack of money, this program disappeard somewhere in history.

KMDB however have attempts to develop a family of unified combat vehicles based on both T-64 series and T-80UD/T-84 series.

 

[p2prada]

it is just a money problem,

I am not saying they are all hype or anything, this was my point. No money to maintain an edge in technology against UVZ. So, if they are ahead now, they won't be ahead forever, especially if UVZ is the one getting 2000+ tank orders every decade.

Russia have more money, so they perform better than Ukrainians, but this does not mean that KMDB is inferior to UVZ or other russian design bureaus.

UVZs market was always big, massive even, with thousands of T-72s littered around the globe including Russia. Their tank wasn't as good as KMDBs, but this is one tank bureau which seems to have the least money problems.

To be honest I don't mind the upgrade contract going to Ukraine, if the Army wants it. My current posts have nothing to do with what they have now. Everything to do with how they will cope in the future, will they become a domestic tank developer feeding off smaller orders from the Ukrainian Army and the export market or can they retain the edge for a far longer period, especially against the now "bigger" UVZ. Such things will relate to IA too, because we plan on operating T-90s until 2040. There is little point in getting upgrades from a company which may go bankrupt in another 15 years. Of course, this is hypothetical, but not an impossible situation as long as the Ukrainian army is able to keep the design house relevant with internal orders.

KMDB however have attempts to develop a family of unified combat vehicles based on both T-64 series and T-80UD/T-84 series.

Any idea what are Ukrainian army plans? Also their export market?

 

[p2prada]

It is like KMDB is creating a mix and match with different platforms for different customers and will latch on to the first customer that bites. Pakistan seems to be one, especially with their heavy requirement for tanks. So, I won't be surprised if we slowly start seeing Ukrainian technologies in Pak armour, if not already being done. This would also directly interfere with Indian Army's plans as will it affect Pak Army.

 

[Damian]

It is like KMDB is creating a mix and match with different platforms for different customers and will latch on to the first customer that bites. Pakistan seems to be one, especially with their heavy requirement for tanks. So, I won't be surprised if we slowly start seeing Ukrainian technologies in Pak armour, if not already being done. This would also directly interfere with Indian Army's plans as will it affect Pak Army.

It is actually very smart move from the Ukrainians side, to make a wide proposal for many customers.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

we should have open tender for tanks, just like MRCA tender, let all see which is best. .

I dont think we need any new tanks, Except Domestic projects like Arjun MK2 and FMBT..

We already have enough tanks and which can be updated to latest Levels..

 

[p2prada]

It is actually very smart move from the Ukrainians side, to make a wide proposal for many customers.

Yeah. The options for the T-90 also seems to be good. I don't know what electronics were offered, but thinking about a 6TD-2/3 engine on the tank along with their ERA options is a good deal.