Trump Uses the K-word, Includes Bajwa in Talks with Imran

[Haldiram]

China is giving more than it takes. That is why China is being respected.

What has China given? it has disrupted every single industry there is for its own advantage, from electronics to finances. It has forced everyone to shrink their margins. It has dislodged infra developers in Europe and become a monopoly in road construction there. They even built a nuclear plant for Britain. Not that any of that is bad, but what did it 'give' for which one should be grateful? It made stuff and it sold stuff. It's normal trade practice to capture new markets. It bought trillions of dollars in US $ bonds, now US owes it money. That's not out of generosity. That's to hedge against US currency manipulation.

India has 175 million Muslims, China doesn't have that problem. We have less money, and more Muslims. Our problem is deeper.

 

[Vijyes]

Indeed, like helping to sustain Pakistan & arm it, seizing territory, espionage, cyber attacks, far left terrorists, diplomatic roadblocks and what not.

You are spreading fake news. Pakistan has always been sustained by USA, not China. All other allegations are just non-physical and hence something I won't consider.

China has one genuine reason, an equally big country in neighbour is a threat.
China is biggest enemy of India and creates problems for India wherever it gets chance.

Why is a big country a threat? Threat to what?

Chinese don't give anything to jihadis except a long solid and hard metal rod right in their @$$holes.
Respect? China doesn't even have an iota of it in international community. China we see today isn't the great old eastern civilization, it's a communist rough state like USSR.

There is no international community. This is just cheap talk of people wiyh inferiority complex

 

[Vijyes]

What has China given? it has disrupted every single industry there is, from electronics to finances. It has forced everyone to shrink their margins. It has dislodged infra developers in Europe and become a monopoly in road construction there. They even built a nuclear plant for Britain. Not that any of that is bad, but what did it 'give'? It's normal trade to capture new markets. It bought trillions of dollars in US $ bonds, now US owes it money.

China gives manufactured goods at extremely low prices by keeping labour cost low and by extracting its own Resources for extremely low cost. Just like Arabs are giving oil, China is giving their Resources like coal, steel, lead, zinc, phosphorus and their labour to manufacture cheap items.

China doesn't give purely for trade but has vast trade surplus. It means China gives loans to people in the form of goods trade surplus. This is a way of giving. Trade is when China exchanges its goods for someone's goods. China here is giving loans and essentially giving its its goods for free by purchasing treasury bonds of other countries. Without these losns, standard of living of many countries would be significantly lower

India has 175 million Muslims, China doesn't have that problem.

China doesn't have significant muslims and that also means that there will be few takers to fight for rights of 1.5 - 2 crore Muslims as the amount of loans it gives is too much to be ignored. India on the orher hand had trade deficit and needs foreign resources to sustain. In return for it India has to give back something of value. That is tolerance to 20 crore Muslims is a payment for foreign Resources

 

[hit&run]

Good point. The Russians have these engagements with Pakistan for only one reason, to warn India and make us squirm. Many here are saying the Americans are transactional, the Russians have them beat. Putin is very clear headed that countries don’t have friends, only interests. Our “friendship” is dependent on India forking out large amounts of money and buying Russian stuff, otherwise, there will be more than military exercises with Pakistan.

The sad truth is that India’s foreign policy consists of paying large amounts of money as bribes in the name of military purchases to its strategic partners in a bid to keep them on our side. The Americans have seen and understood that Trump is ruthless and wants a piece of that pie. He sees a large trade surplus for India in trade and he’s making it clear that India will have to give the Americans something in return.

Before it gets lost in the nitpicks of the juveniles and the fence-sitter whiners, actually, it already has; the larger point I have made is that the neither USA nor Russia is an enemy of India.

The poor training in conflict resolution and even before that; making a conflict to simplify complex challenges; the Indian intelligentsia is running in never-ending circles.

Russians are following their national interests. Nations run like cooperations. There are always projections done by these cooperations. Within a decade India will be self-reliant on a very large percentage of its requirements. Simply looking at innovation index and JVs one can draft these projections. Russians will be looking for new markets within the next 10 years.

Russians after the fall of USSR now under Putin have recently found their lost balls that they are taking up offshore expeditions. Otherwise, it was only the USA who was making wars all over the planet.

The biggest problems with the whiners are that they do not judge the gap between Hyper powers and Regional powers correctly. Soon one tries to remind them the same they get offended.

India has its place in the region but we are inflicted with a problem called Pakistan. Since 1971 due to many reasons we are not doing enough efforts to fix it. The USA due to its justified involvement in the region post 9/11 has interest in Pakistan. When a whiner says USA has NO business to be in this region we lose all the perspective that can help us understand the challenges we may face vis a vis USA Pakistan bonhomie.

As far as India buying influence with money is a concern, I see no much problem in it. Gun bought with money or printed at home should be working and this is all that matters. With massive bought conventional advantage and not using it to fix Pakistan is what disturbs us.

There was an alignment in making between USA, India and Afghanistan that we could entre the centre stage and like other nations having contingents we could have controlled few regions of our interest in Afghanistan.

Like they say if you do want to do anything either make it very light or very heavy. In this particular thread, many posters are doing the same.

The lessons for Germany after WW-2 was that they failed to go full-scale against England but kept pricking them. This is what Modi has done post Pulwama.

Modi heating up Pakistan from Indian side had only one outcome as far as Pakistan's diplomatic reaction was a concern; it would have yielded to the USA's demands. Modi's James Bonds did not add this to the algorithm.

I am not saying it is a done deal for Pakistan because Americans don't trust them anymore but we have given Pakistan a breather and a chance which they never had, to realign with them again.

 

[Haldiram]

China gives manufactured goods at extremely low prices by keeping labour cost low and by extracting its own Resources for extremely low cost. Just like Arabs are giving oil, China is giving their Resources like coal, steel, lead, zinc, phosphorus and their labour to manufacture cheap items.

That's not 'giving'. That's predatory pricing. They are flooding the market so their goods are cheap.

China doesn't give purely for trade but has vast trade surplus. It means China gives loans to people in the form of goods trade surplus. This is a way of giving. Trade is when China exchanges its goods for someone's goods. China here is giving loans and essentially giving its its goods for free by purchasing treasury bonds of other countries. Without these losns, standard of living of many countries would be significantly lower

That's some narrative building. Trade surplus created by flooding smaller markets who don't have the benefit of scale is now being peddled as "lending goods for your progress". Is it not taking money for those goods? It's selling them cheap so Chinese manufacturers benefit and the industry in the importing nation suffers.

China and USA are fit for each other. Other nations deal to maximize self-interest. These two are playing it to cause maximum loss to the other person, with the hope that when one capitulates, the other can become a dominant power. The US-initiated trade war with China has forced them to pay 16$ billion to their farmers who took a hit in America's obsession to stop global trade to see who starves to death first.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

You are spreading fake news.

No, I'm not. What I said is based on facts. The one who bends logics to support China is dishonest and blatant liar however.

Pakistan has always been sustained by USA, not China.

Pakistan has been sustained by both. Because it's a proxy that was created to be used against India at first place.

Why is a big country a threat? Threat to what?

Threat to dominance. The balance to hegemony.

There is no international community. This is just cheap talk of people wiyh inferiority complex

Why spinning it around? You what I meant by "international community".

It's you who talked about "respect" of China which is factually incorrect itself.

 

[Immortal]

I don't think Jaishankar has soft corner to USA. Jaishankar appears to be quite pragmatic in his approach. Jaishankar has soft corner to China and so does RSS. China has actually been helping India in many ways. In no way has China caused any physical problem to India unreasonably. China has helped not just India but entire world get an alternative to USA and actually has shown very little imperial attitude of cultural subversion like sending missionaries as in case of USA. It is necessary to take Chinese help to overthrow USA as no other country has the amount of Technology, population and Resources to counter USA other than China

No physical harm: sitting on our territory in Akasi Chin, if that’s not enough laying claim on Arunachal. Preventing membership of India in every strategic forum like NSG and UN Security Council ; helping Pakistan whenever we move anything against them. Supporting their nuclear n missile program. List is endless
I think first we have to take US help to over throw Chinese than the other way round

 

[Immortal]

Also Chinese treatment of muslims in Uighur and subsequent silence and support by Ummah proved that might is right
So if India achieves the current chinese level , no one will dare talk about Kashmir. This is the biggest favour China has done to us
If Ummah is silent on China ,it has no right to question India

The principal of might is right is there since the time the forbidden fruit fell down from the tree in the garden of Eden. It is we Indians who are not ready to believe in it. We have been underspending since 1947 on defence. Not doing anything about our economy which has started underperforming. It’s not only about Uighur, no body talks shit about Chinese human rights.
As I said we need to look inward. Foreign policy is the preserve of the rich and mighty. Let’s get rich and strong.

 

[sorcerer]

Glory cannot be based on a fictionalised story of young Bharata counting the teeth of the lion, we have plenty of non fiction available. Bharata may have leant his name to this land and spawned an extraordinary dynasty but nothing was ever known of the king himself.

Fictional ..non fictional... but good..you got the point!
Good!! So be it!

 

[Vijyes]

That's not 'giving'. That's predatory pricing. They are flooding the market so their goods are cheap.


That's some narrative building. Trade surplus created by flooding smaller markets who don't have the benefit of scale is now being peddled as "lending goods for your progress". Is it not taking money for those goods? It's selling them cheap so Chinese manufacturers benefit and the industry in the importing nation suffers.

China and USA are fit for each other. Other nations deal to maximize self-interest. These two are playing it to cause maximum loss to the other person, with the hope that when one capitulates, the other can become a dominant power. The US-initiated trade war with China has forced them to pay 16$ billion to their farmers who took a hit in America's obsession to stop global trade to see who starves to death first.

View attachment 36371

Predatory pricing is also giving. This is a fact that China has vast Resources and population which can make large amount of goods. Since China is the only country to extract its Resources and then export it at cheap prices, Chinese are giving. Chinese Resources also deplete while extracting in such quantity. The people in China also have to work for long hours, ruining their personal life so that some foreign country people can live a better life. Despite this, it exports the Resources for cheap.

What stops countries like USA, EU to get the resources from Australia, USA and Canada to manufacture for cheap? Why are people of West so lazy that they are unwilling to work long hours? This very factor is what makes Chinese GIVERS. Western countries too could have been working hard and providing items enmasse. But they chose the national policy to use imperialism to get freebies from others while doing very little themselves. In such circumstances, Chinese working overtime to export is indeed an act of giving

 

[sorcerer]

Predatory pricing is also giving. This is a fact that China has vast Resources and population which can make large amount of goods. Since China is the only country to extract its Resources and then export it at cheap prices, Chinese are giving. Chinese Resources also deplete while extracting in such quantity. The people in China also have to work for long hours, ruining their personal life so that some foreign country people can live a better life. Despite this, it exports the Resources for cheap.

What stops countries like USA, EU to get the resources from Australia, USA and Canada to manufacture for cheap? Why are people of West so lazy that they are unwilling to work long hours? This very factor is what makes Chinese GIVERS. Western countries too could have been working hard and providing items enmasse. But they chose the national policy to use imperialism to get freebies from others while doing very little themselves. In such circumstances, Chinese working overtime to export is indeed an act of giving

or in modern times referred as HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS vis a vis labor. In nations with democracy and legal systems such wont fly for long as a sustainable measure.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Predatory pricing is also giving. This is a fact that China has vast Resources and population which can make large amount of goods. Since China is the only country to extract its Resources and then export it at cheap prices, Chinese are giving. Chinese Resources also deplete while extracting in such quantity. The people in China also have to work for long hours, ruining their personal life so that some foreign country people can live a better life. Despite this, it exports the Resources for cheap.

What stops countries like USA, EU to get the resources from Australia, USA and Canada to manufacture for cheap? Why are people of West so lazy that they are unwilling to work long hours? This very factor is what makes Chinese GIVERS. Western countries too could have been working hard and providing items enmasse. But they chose the national policy to use imperialism to get freebies from others while doing very little themselves. In such circumstances, Chinese working overtime to export is indeed an act of giving

Chinese don't work for foreigners. They charge money.

 

[AnantS]

Funny I see "India needs to put boots in Afghanistan to please and "return ahsaan" of USA" discussion in the forum and media every two years.

My humble two questions to all intelligentsia who put forward such demands/suggestion is:
a) What Indian objective/Interest does it serve for India by putting in boots there?(Please dont tell me, America will become our BFF and help us become superpower kind of argument)
b)Even if suppose one of DFI advocate becomes decision maker and gets the power to order Indian Army placement in Afghanistan against all wisdom - Please can you elucidate how are you going to maintain logistic trail issue for Army? Iran is No No. Russia is courting with TellyBunnies these days.

Let me tell you no one on earth would be more happy than Pakistan and China - if India ever decides to put boots in Afghanistan officially and unilaterally.

How much Russia is aligned with India right now can be gauged from following line:
Former Russian Ambassador to India, Vyacheslav Trubnikov, a confidante of Russia’s Afghanistan point person Zamir Kabulov, had said, “the solution to Afghanistan lies in Kashmir“.

 

[AnantS]

True cent %....................
America’s immediate concern is trade deficit with us, every thing else is bunkum.

Only thing good about Indo-US relationship is their timely delivery of military equipment.

Yes sir , Relations with Russia, China France - all are transactional in nature. No we cant even say Transactional because most of it is one way. India is paying regular tributes to keep these nations happy. This is the price the whole nation is paying for not aggressively developing its own MiC.

I am glad about one thing - The periodic American U turn timing could not have been much better. Usually the US U turn happens when an incumbent Indian govt is completing its Term and is about to go in election. This time U turn happened after new govt has recently been sworn in. PM Modi hopefully has got required shock from American perfidy and I hope his govt has been able to get break from infactuation with US.

 

[ezsasa]

Yes sir , Relations with Russia, China France - all are transactional in nature. No we cant even say Transactional because most of it is one way. India is paying regular tributes to keep these nations happy. This is the price the whole nation is paying for not aggressively developing its own MiC.

I am glad about one thing - The periodic American U turn timing could not have been much better. Usually the US U turn happens when an incumbent Indian govt is completing its Term and is about to go in election. This time U turn happened after new govt has recently been sworn in. PM Modi hopefully has got required shock from American perfidy and I hope his govt has been able to get break from infactuation with US.

It’s not the case that diplomats do not know this, I am sure politicians do too...

After the Jhatka Xi gave to modi on his first visit, I doubt modi will trust anybody.

 

[Tamil TigerWoods]

Military expeditions are not zero-sum games.

Post 9/11 it was important to give a message to the world especially enemies of USA who may have started thinking to bleed USA this way.

Even if the messaging is separated, the USA is a war-making nation and it is an enterprise for them.

Keep making moral judgements and keep saying that they have lost Afghanistan; which was never theirs in the first place. LOL.

You’re right- military expeditions aren’t zero sum games.

But Afghanistan flies in the face of everything that the US preached about not wanting to replicate another Vietnam-ish quagmire after the former chapter concluded.

It has nothing to do with “enterprise” or winning/losing what is or isn’t their possession.

When you go in with the brash and bluster of the most powerful military power in the world- and nearly 18 years later your generals are conceding that the war is un-winnable, that you are still locked in a stalemate, etc.....you know that sht has gone awry.

There were even Conservative online publications from former individuals who had served- a few months ago- who were wholly conceding that it was time for the U.S. to declare Afghanistan as a *military* defeat, explicitly.

 

[Tamil TigerWoods]

There is if they can convince the taliban and the govt in Kabul to strike out a deal for a unity govt. The idea of Washington trying to talk to the taliban directly is to get them to agree to share power, accept a constitution which will, among others, accept some of taliban's fundamental tenets of state and governance, force taliban to denounce any future support for anti-US islamist organizations. If the above happens then US can declare victory and pull out from Afghanistan with grace.

In what world do you see an intransigent Islamist actor like the Taliban agreeing to such capitulations?

They have fought against the US and it’s allies for nearly 2 decades now. What incentive do they have to agree to any sort of power-sharing trap with an effectively-installed Western puppet regime in Kabul headed by Ghani?

I love it, personally. Americans being humiliated like this at the hands of a bunch of goat-humping cave men without any trace of sophistication or modernity to their craft.

 

[Haldiram]

In what world do you see an intransigent Islamist actor like the Taliban agreeing to such capitulations?

They have fought against the US and it’s allies for nearly 2 decades now. What incentive do they have to agree to any sort of power-sharing trap with an effectively-installed Western puppet regime in Kabul headed by Ghani?

I love it, personally. Americans being humiliated like this at the hands of a bunch of goat-humping cave men without any trace of sophistication or modernity to their craft.

The Taliban is not a homogenous group. It is America's attempt to create a sub-national organization whose top management is in America's pocket and the middle management is in ISI's pocket and the lower run jawans are freelance contractors. They want to create a false representative of the Afghan people, so that the elected leadership could be discredited. From time to time, the middle management becomes more powerful, being under the direct control of the ISI, and when money runs dry, their 'official' Taliban office at Qatar rings up Washington to top up those funds in exchange for making some re-conciliatory statements.

During the Cold War, all Taliban commanders were directly under CIA watch because it was a high stakes game for them. Presently, the US has deliberately shrunk their own footprint and outsourced the middle management of the Taliban to Pakistan with great foresight to give a certain kind of heft to Pakistan in the American attempt to maintain a certain power-balance in Asia vis-a-vis India. That's why the legitimate leadership of Afghanistan, i.e the Amarullah Saleh camp always keeps saying the Taliban must not be made party to any arrangement, because they know, the 'truce' is a farce, and the Taliban are essentially US puppets.

The top 25% management of the Taliban can issue a truce, but the bottom 75% freelance cadre is moving towards the Amarullah Saleh camp so this engineered truce is taking time, otherwise their air-conditioned Qatar office is happy to issue whatever statement the US wants it to.

Any power-sharing agreement between the Taliban and the legit Afghan leadership will basically be the US's backdoor entry into securing a permanent/unelected representative in Afghan politics which the CIA can use as a remote control after their troops leave, that's why they are so eager for a truce. They don't care who the truce happens with. They will prop up anyone who is willing to be a US puppet, claim that he was a top Taliban commander, give him agency and leave that new commander to be managed by ISI.


India backs the legit leadership of Amarullah Saleh. The CIA and ISI want Taliban. In whose support is India going to send troops? the goals of the US are diametrically opposite to ours.

 

[Vijyes]

The Taliban is not a homogenous group. It is America's attempt to create a sub-national organization whose top management is in America's pocket and the middle management is in ISI's pocket and the lower run jawans are freelance contractors. They want to create a false representative of the Afghan people, so that the elected leadership could be discredited. From time to time, the middle management becomes more powerful, being under the direct control of the ISI, and when money runs dry, their 'official' Taliban office at Qatar rings up Washington to top up those funds in exchange for making some re-conciliatory statements.

During the Cold War, all Taliban commanders were directly under CIA watch because it was a high stakes game for them. Presently, the US has deliberately shrunk their own footprint and outsourced the middle management of the Taliban to Pakistan with great foresight to give a certain kind of heft to Pakistan in the American attempt to maintain a certain power-balance in Asia vis-a-vis India. That's why the legitimate leadership of Afghanistan, i.e the Amarullah Saleh camp always keeps saying the Taliban must not be made party to any arrangement, because they know, the 'truce' is a farce, and the Taliban are essentially US puppets. The top 25% management can issue a truce, but the bottom 75% cadre is moving towards the Amarullah Saleh camp so this engineered truce is taking time, otherwise their Qatar office is happy to issue whatever statement the US wants it to.

Any power-sharing agreement between the Taliban and the legit Afghan leadership will basically be the US's backdoor entry into securing a permanent/unelected representative in Afghan politics which the CIA can use as a remote control after their troops leave, that's why they are so eager for a truce. They don't care who the truce happens with. They will prop up anyone who is willing to be a US puppet, claim that he was a top Taliban commander, give him agency and leave.

Even here, there is USA-Arab rift that will have a say. Arabs and USA have recently fallen out resulting in USA producing more oil to become energy independent. It is a farce that Qatar is heading Taliban. The Arabs have pretended to have had a rift with Qatar just for the good-cop bad-cop effect. Reality is that Qatar and other Arabs are still working together.

The Afghanistan leaders are under Arab leadership, not under USA. Even in cold war era, Arabs funded and controlled Taliban leadership. Though CIA had kept an eye on them, it was the alliance with arabs which kept Taliban under USA control. That is why Taliban attacked USA in 2001. This was a message from Arabs to US that USA needs Arabs more than other way around. Taliban didn't hesitate attacking USA because Taliban loyalty was always with Arab nations, not USA. USA was merely an arms supplier and worked with them due to common hatred of USSR.

It is unlikely that is is able to install a puppet government in Afghanistan as Arabs will not let go of their control. What exactly USA wants is still something I have not been able to find out.

 

[Haldiram]

Read the subtitles, very telling.

Interviewer : "The Taliban does terror attacks, why doesn't the US declare the Taliban a terror group"

Amarullah : ".....because Pakistan wont allow it"