Today China is what US was

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zraver

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With this New York Times article, are we all finally in agreement that "Today China is what US was?"
No we are not, for one China isn't in a recession the US is, but China will be someday its nature.

An honest evaluation needs to compare all factors. The picture in China is not nearly as rosy as some people want to paint it. A rapidly aging population, looming population crisis as the effects of 1 child kicks in, massive on going environmental damage and lack of RnD spending, and a higher education education system that is still second rate. Other issues include that wage pressure will raise the cost of doing business in China, building anger at Chinese trade practices and rampant government corruption.

China has a lot of issues to resolve besides the technology gap. China might be able to do it, but the US won't be standing still either. The only thing keeping the US from an economic boom is a political class that had become addicted to progressiveness. The day we stop stealing from the rich we will shoot forward again. Obama is only in office till 2012 and the Democrat Congress is gone in 2010.
 

Martian

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No we are not, for one China isn't in a recession the US is, but China will be someday its nature.

An honest evaluation needs to compare all factors. The picture in China is not nearly as rosy as some people want to paint it. A rapidly aging population, looming population crisis as the effects of 1 child kicks in, massive on going environmental damage and lack of RnD spending, and a higher education education system that is still second rate. Other issues include that wage pressure will raise the cost of doing business in China, building anger at Chinese trade practices and rampant government corruption.

China has a lot of issues to resolve besides the technology gap. China might be able to do it, but the US won't be standing still either. The only thing keeping the US from an economic boom is a political class that had become addicted to progressiveness. The day we stop stealing from the rich we will shoot forward again. Obama is only in office till 2012 and the Democrat Congress is gone in 2010.
1. Aging population shouldn't be a problem. As the share of the primary industry (i.e. agriculture) shrinks toward 1 to 2% of the economy, there will be plenty of migrant rural workers to work in China's factories.

2. One child policy can be reversed whenever the CPC decides it is appropriate. This is a policy decision.

3. Environmental damage is expected during the process of industrialization. Britain (see cholera) and U.S. (see Love Canal) also had this experience. Environmental damage can be corrected later as the society becomes wealthier.

4. In the thread "In India, Anxiety Over the Slow Pace of Innovation," Koji has posted a graph of R&D expenditure as % of GDP. From 1997 to 2007, US R&D has remained at roughly 2.5% of GDP. However, China's R&D has increased from 0.5 to 1.5% of GDP. If the trend continues, China's R&D as a percentage of GDP will approach U.S. levels.

5. No argument regarding the educational system. Emphasis on rote learning is useful during the catch-up phase of industrialization. The goal of producing Nobel-prize winners in the hard sciences will take 2 to 3 generations.

6. Wage pressure is a tough issue. It is unknown whether average Chinese productivity gains will continue to outstrip the rise in wages and the value of the Yuan (appreciated 21% in the last four years).

7. Rising protectionism is a wild card. I'm sure that the Chinese will retaliate when they encounter significant protectionism. However, it becomes a lose-lose scenario and it could retard Chinese economic growth.

8. The future of the U.S. is indeed in American hands. My personal suggestion is to shut down most of the 750 to 800 overseas military bases. I would also close the tax loopholes and force large U.S. corporations to pay their fair share of the taxes. Government subsidies to rich agribusiness conglomerates like Archer-Daniels and Cargill should be immediately terminated. However, given the increasing influence of special interest groups (i.e. big corporations) on both major political parties and Congress, I'm not holding my breath on imminent change.

The above-factors can indeed be formidable. However, on the other hand, the CPC is a very competent manager of China Inc. and their decades of proven success inspires future confidence. Furthermore, China Inc. has $2.3 trillion dollars in reserves, which give them latitude to make mistakes.

Final verdict: The future of China Inc. looks pretty bright, however life can bring unexpected surprises. China has earned a very impressive economic record of growth. However, past success does not necessarily translate into future success. The unfolding China story is the greatest drama of our times. Can China Inc. really boom for another two decades? Will China succeed in its push into the large commercial aircraft market with the 190-seat C919 in 2016?

As long as they build the elegant American-designed Shanghai Tower, I'll be happy.
 

badguy2000

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CHR3 is a derivative of Siemens Velaro, so you cannot even call it as Chinese technology. You are just importing technology. That puts the claims that Chinese is a pace where high-technology stuff is being produced in the dust bin and you giving example of CHR3 for that is a failed effort.

China Railways CRH3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
if so, why do USA and Russian import highspeed railway from China, instead of German?

it is another example you dare not face the fact.

CRH3 is a combination of Germany tech, Japanese tech and Chinese indigenious tech.
it has proved to be mature and have best cost performance in the world. that is why CRH3 can defeats Japnese ones and German ones.

it is more ironic that German may imports high-speed railway tech from CHina in the future....
 

zraver

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1. Aging population shouldn't be a problem. As the share of the primary industry (i.e. agriculture) shrinks toward 1 to 2% of the economy, there will be plenty of migrant rural workers to work in China's factories.
Not once the population goes into terminal decline, it will push up the price of labor and this will increase the costs of doing business and the industry will move on to the next Britian/America/China.

2. One child policy can be reversed whenever the CPC decides it is appropriate. This is a policy decision.
And spend a of couple of decades waiting

3. Environmental damage is expected during the process of industrialization. Britain (see cholera) and U.S. (see Love Canal) also had this experience. Environmental damage can be corrected later as the society becomes wealthier.
Modern industry uses far more dangerous substances and China by virtue of its long inhabitation has less room to absorb the damage.

4. In the thread "In India, Anxiety Over the Slow Pace of Innovation," Koji has posted a graph of R&D expenditure as % of GDP. From 1997 to 2007, US R&D has remained at roughly 2.5% of GDP. However, China's R&D has increased from 0.5 to 1.5% of GDP. If the trend continues, China's R&D as a percentage of GDP will approach U.S. levels.
China would have to spend 8-10% per annum on RnD given the difference in the size of the economies.

5. No argument regarding the educational system. Emphasis on rote learning is useful during the catch-up phase of industrialization. The goal of producing Nobel-prize winners in the hard sciences will take 2 to 3 generations.
Longer, you have to build up the intelligentsia first

6. Wage pressure is a tough issue. It is unknown whether average Chinese productivity gains will continue to outstrip the rise in wages and the value of the Yuan (appreciated 21% in the last four years).
A tough issue that could cause serious problems.

7. Rising protectionism is a wild card. I'm sure that the Chinese will retaliate when they encounter significant protectionism. However, it becomes a lose-lose scenario and it could retard Chinese economic growth.
Yup

8. The future of the U.S. is indeed in American hands. My personal suggestion is to shut down most of the 750 to 800 overseas military bases. I would also close the tax loopholes and force large U.S. corporations to pay their fair share of the taxes. Government subsidies to rich agribusiness conglomerates like Archer-Daniels and Cargill should be immediately terminated. However, given the increasing influence of special interest groups (i.e. big corporations) on both major political parties and Congress, I'm not holding my breath on imminent change.
American companies pay too much in corporate taxes. Profit is found in the margins. Say your considering moving a plant from Kansas to China. American workers are more productive per work hour so that is a plus for America. But they are expensive. If you also face high taxes and regulatory restrictions and fees a move might be worth it even if the increase in profits is only 2-3%. A tax cut can reverse that margin and make American workers attractive.

The above-factors can indeed be formidable. However, on the other hand, the CPC is a very competent manager of China Inc. and their decades of proven success inspires future confidence. Furthermore, China Inc. has $2.3 trillion dollars in reserves, which give them latitude to make mistakes.
Competent, but not exceptional. They got blinders on with some issues, have major corruption problems and have given the businesses free reign in the hen house. Based on past industrialization histories the CCP is going to face some very difficult choices about who to support- labor or industry.

Final verdict: The future of China Inc. looks pretty bright, however life can bring unexpected surprises. China has earned a very impressive economic record of growth. However, past success does not necessarily translate into future success. The unfolding China story is the greatest drama of our times. Can China Inc. really boom for another two decades? Will China succeed in its push into the large commercial aircraft market with the 190-seat C919 in 2016?

As long as they build the elegant American-designed Shanghai Tower, I'll be happy.
The C919- maybe the Boeing and Airbus have established records and a pre-built customer base with no stigma of shoddy Chinese construction. Even on China's modern fighters quality control sucks.

I think China will keep rising for the near term, long term is where it gets cloudy. I think double digit growth is coming to an end- law of diminishing returns.
 

Martian

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Not once the population goes into terminal decline, it will push up the price of labor and this will increase the costs of doing business and the industry will move on to the next Britian/America/China.



And spend a of couple of decades waiting



Modern industry uses far more dangerous substances and China by virtue of its long inhabitation has less room to absorb the damage.



China would have to spend 8-10% per annum on RnD given the difference in the size of the economies.



Longer, you have to build up the intelligentsia first



A tough issue that could cause serious problems.



Yup



American companies pay too much in corporate taxes. Profit is found in the margins. Say your considering moving a plant from Kansas to China. American workers are more productive per work hour so that is a plus for America. But they are expensive. If you also face high taxes and regulatory restrictions and fees a move might be worth it even if the increase in profits is only 2-3%. A tax cut can reverse that margin and make American workers attractive.



Competent, but not exceptional. They got blinders on with some issues, have major corruption problems and have given the businesses free reign in the hen house. Based on past industrialization histories the CCP is going to face some very difficult choices about who to support- labor or industry.



The C919- maybe the Boeing and Airbus have established records and a pre-built customer base with no stigma of shoddy Chinese construction. Even on China's modern fighters quality control sucks.

I think China will keep rising for the near term, long term is where it gets cloudy. I think double digit growth is coming to an end- law of diminishing returns.
I like your analysis. The best insight is the tough choice that the CCP will have to make eventually; predominantly "support labor or industry." If they support industry for an extended period of time, labor will become restive and illegal strikes will eventually occur. If they start supporting labor, industry will become weaker from paying higher wages and benefits; leaving less money for R&D.

I also agree that economic gravity will catch up to them. The law of diminishing returns will assert itself at some point. However, if the CCP is lucky then the boom may "tail off" only after there is a reduction in the millions of new people entering the workforce each year. If the CCP is unlucky then they have more hard choices to make.

I think the CCP is safe for the next ten years. They have a gigantic high-speed rail and dam building program for the next decade.
 

Rudran

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Anybody know history cant compare China with America

The Difference is Democracy, China is sitting on the tip of an explosive which can ignate any time. The Internal problem make china into a Big Big Problem unless it goes to a Democratic Setup.

Rural China is so unhappy with the current situation. Who still Uphold Communisum. Clearly speaking, a big movement like what now going on against West Bengal Govt will caught Chinese Govt in a matter of time.
 

nitesh

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Here is the latest reason that the Chinese are rightfully "somewhat-paranoid" about the United States. The United States is always picking on China.

U.S. sees robust climate talks, no reparations | Reuters

"They also warned that China, with its booming economy, would not be a recipient of any U.S. aid, even though the Asian heavyweight is considered a developing country under U.N. rules.
...
Stern warned, however, that China, with its booming economy and large reserves of U.S. dollars, would not be a recipient of financial aid from Washington.

'I don't envision public funds, certainly not from the United States, going to China....'"

Here we go again. Let's ignore the U.N. rules and arbitrarily disqualify only the Chinese. How can you have a rule-based system if the Chinese are constantly being whacked on the head? Why discourage the Chinese from building more wind-turbine generators? Less carbon emissions is good for everyone.

When their country is underwater, somebody better tell the Bangladeshis that the rich U.S. ($47,000 GDP per capita) decided to score political points against the poor Chinese ($3,200 GDP per capita) and this prevented the buildout of massive Chinese wind-farms.
so you twisting it again man there is no bound from the same link, so Chinese don't want the support then why palying fake cry baby here

But Yu Qingtai, China's climate change ambassador, told reporters that "China has never sought to become the first candidate of financial support," despite its emphasis on the need for developed country financial aid.
 

Martian

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Anybody know history cant compare China with America

The Difference is Democracy, China is sitting on the tip of an explosive which can ignate any time. The Internal problem make china into a Big Big Problem unless it goes to a Democratic Setup.

Rural China is so unhappy with the current situation. Who still Uphold Communisum. Clearly speaking, a big movement like what now going on against West Bengal Govt will caught Chinese Govt in a matter of time.
Read the history of Taiwan and South Korea. Both countries made the transition from military dictatorship to democracy at approximately $10,000 to $15,000 nominal US dollars per capita.

There is no reason to believe that China will be immune to the wealth effect and the demands of an emerging middle-class. Already we have seen middle-class protest/objection to a new road in Shanghai, which was re-routed. There was also objection to an incinerator in a major Chinese city. The incinerator was delayed or canceled. These incidents will only grow over time.
 

Martian

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so you twisting it again man there is no bound from the same link, so Chinese don't want the support then why palying fake cry baby here

But Yu Qingtai, China's climate change ambassador, told reporters that "China has never sought to become the first candidate of financial support," despite its emphasis on the need for developed country financial aid.
China may not want to be the first in line for financial support. However, I believe China expects to be eventually compensated for the costs of carbon emission reductions to address the issue of the extremely elevated carbon accumulation from 1751 to 2009 by the main polluters, U.S. and Europe.

I'm surprised that you're against China, which is bargaining on behalf of the developing world. There are only two camps at Copenhagen. Either the rich developed-world assumes responsibility for past emissions and help pay for the "clean-up/reduction of future emissions" or every poor developing country will have to individually bear the burden of carbon emission reductions by itself.

This is not a case of what's good for the U.S. is good for India. This is a case of what's good for China is good for India. See link below (article: India, China resist rich nations).

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/india/India-China-resist-rich-nations/Article1-484828.aspx
 

Vladimir79

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China may not want to be the first in line for financial support. However, I believe China expects to be eventually compensated for the costs of carbon emission reductions to address the issue of the extremely elevated carbon accumulation from 1751 to 2009 by the main polluters, U.S. and Europe.

I'm surprised that you're against China bargaining on behalf of the developing world. There are only two camps at Copenhagen. Either the rich developed world assumes responsibility for past emissions and help pay for the "clean-up/lack of future emissions" or every poor developing country will have to individually bear the burden of carbon emission reductions by itself.

This is not a case of what's good for the U.S. is good for India. This is a case of what's good for China is good for India. See link below (India, China resist rich nations).

India, China resist rich nations- Hindustan Times
China is in no position to bargain since they are going to face the most severe consequences of Global Warming. Once the Himalayan glaciers melt away, the Yellow and Yagntze Rivers will be little more than puddles. If they wait long enough, the most populated coastline in the world will be under water. The CCP knows they must act when they are the worlds greatest polluter.
 

Martian

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China is in no position to bargain since they are going to face the most severe consequences of Global Warming. Once the Himalayan glaciers melt away, the Yellow and Yagntze Rivers will be little more than puddles. If they wait long enough, the most populated coastline in the world will be under water. The CCP knows they must act when they are the worlds greatest polluter.
I take it that you didn't bother reading that Europe and the U.S. are responsible for over 50% of the current extra carbon in the atmosphere due to their industrial carbon emissions from 1751 to 2009? Want me to post that graph for you again?

China is trying to get Europe and the U.S. to assume responsibility for the global climate effects caused by two and a half centuries of liberal European and American industrial pollution.
 

Vladimir79

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I take it that you didn't bother reading that Europe and the U.S. are responsible for over 50% of the current extra carbon in the atmosphere due to their industrial carbon emissions from 1751 to 2009? Want me to post that graph for you again?

China is trying to get Europe and the U.S. to assume responsibility for the global climate effects caused by two and a half centuries of liberal European and American industrial pollution.
No one in Copenhagen cares about carbon emissions from 1751. Do you really believe that bollocks? What people care about are the wealthy nations versus the poor nations. With China holding the greatest reserves on the planet, they will be expected to pay.
 

badguy2000

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No we are not, for one China isn't in a recession the US is, but China will be someday its nature.

An honest evaluation needs to compare all factors. The picture in China is not nearly as rosy as some people want to paint it. A rapidly aging population, looming population crisis as the effects of 1 child kicks in, massive on going environmental damage and lack of RnD spending, and a higher education education system that is still second rate. Other issues include that wage pressure will raise the cost of doing business in China, building anger at Chinese trade practices and rampant government corruption.

China has a lot of issues to resolve besides the technology gap. China might be able to do it, but the US won't be standing still either. The only thing keeping the US from an economic boom is a political class that had become addicted to progressiveness. The day we stop stealing from the rich we will shoot forward again. Obama is only in office till 2012 and the Democrat Congress is gone in 2010.
"one kid policy" has beem discussed here.

"population control" is not a one-way street.

when there are too many peoplel , there is "one kid policy".
when population is too old and limited, there will be " two kids poilcy" or even "3 kids policy".

as for "tech gap" ,case is that USA is retreating along the value chain day by day..
 

badguy2000

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China is in no position to bargain since they are going to face the most severe consequences of Global Warming. Once the Himalayan glaciers melt away, the Yellow and Yagntze Rivers will be little more than puddles. If they wait long enough, the most populated coastline in the world will be under water. The CCP knows they must act when they are the worlds greatest polluter.
just dream on...

it can be expected that nothing will be agreed in the meeting at all.

just let wait and see.
 

shamuzhihu

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i did not read this aricle carefully,as a chinese,i know if the china still do not make any change on the society politics system,it is impossible for china to catch up with the USA.in china,all the government and national enterprise only know robbery the common people's money.the country is rich,few people owning speicl right is rich.all the common people have not money to buy the two much high house,can not use two much high gas,two much high medical care,two much high eduction,two much high electronic,oil,water.this country only exist a surface prosperous and stronger,in fact,it have many many problem inside it.
 

nitesh

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China may not want to be the first in line for financial support. However, I believe China expects to be eventually compensated for the costs of carbon emission reductions to address the issue of the extremely elevated carbon accumulation from 1751 to 2009 by the main polluters, U.S. and Europe.
SO put your point forward who is stopping you

I'm surprised that you're against China bargaining on behalf of the developing world. There are only two camps at Copenhagen. Either the rich developed world assumes responsibility for past emissions and help pay for the "clean-up/lack of future emissions" or every poor developing country will have to individually bear the burden of carbon emission reductions by itself.

This is not a case of what's good for the U.S. is good for India. This is a case of what's good for China is good for India.

India, China resist rich nations- Hindustan Times
So China is bargaining on behalf of us! :rofl: :rofl: we are so great ful to them
 

Martian

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No one in Copenhagen cares about carbon emissions from 1751. Do you really believe that bollocks? What people care about are the wealthy nations versus the poor nations. With China holding the greatest reserves on the planet, they will be expected to pay.
U.S. gdp per capita is $47,000. China gdp per capita is $3,200. The hard-earned foreign exchange reserves are intended to feed 1,300,000,000 people. Hard-earned money is not meant to rectify the reckless industrial pollution by Europe and the U.S. for two and a half centuries.
 

Vladimir79

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just dream on...

it can be expected that nothing will be agreed in the meeting at all.

just let wait and see.
Nothing concrete will come of it, but responsible nations are making the pledge to drastically reduce emissions by 2020. It is China which will destroy this planet if they stay on the path of doubling emissions by 2020.
 

Martian

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i did not read this aricle carefully,as a chinese,i know if the china still do not make any change on the society politics system,it is impossible for china to catch up with the USA.in china,all the government and national enterprise only know robbery the common people's money.the country is rich,few people owning speicl right is rich.all the common people have not money to buy the two much high house,can not use two much high gas,two much high medical care,two much high eduction,two much high electronic,oil,water.this country only exist a surface prosperous and stronger,in fact,it have many many problem inside it.
I understand that there are problems. However, every country has problems.

In your opinion, do you think the average Chinese is growing wealthier year after year?

Also, do you think the Chinese government is doing a good job managing the economy in comparison to Vietnam, Philippines, Laos, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Mongolia, Malaysia, or Indonesia? If not, which of those countries do you prefer to move to?
 
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