The Atheism/Agnosticism Thread

[Tronic]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Islam leaves little room for interpretation.

As I said before, only according to the Thekedars of Islam.

They can't stop you from having your own personal beliefs.

I'd agree that all Abrahamic religions are fundamentally incompatible with Agnosticism (hence the need of this term )

All monotheistic religions, not just Abrahamic.

Secondly, I was wrong. Even that statement is incorrect. Agnosticism is a personal belief, and can be incorporated with anything you wish. Who is someone else to tell you what you can or can't incorporate something with?

 

[LurkerBaba]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

All monotheistic religions, not just Abrahamic.

Secondly, I was wrong. Even that statement is incorrect. Agnosticism is a personal belief, and can be incorporated with anything you wish. Who is someone else to tell you what you can or can't incorporate something with?

Only Abrahamic faiths are truly monotheistic. The term developed with respect to them.

No one should interfere with personal beliefs. However, if a Muslim believes that Harry Potter is the next Prophet then his beliefs won't be a part of Islam, thekedarki notwithstanding.

 

[Tronic]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Only Abrahamic faiths are truly monotheistic. The term developed with respect to them.

Sikhism is a Dharmic faith, and its fundamental belief is monotheism.

No one should interfere with personal beliefs. However, say a Muslim believes that Harry Potter is the next Prophet, then his beliefs won't be a part of Islam thekedarki notwithstanding.

Agnosticism doesn't add on to the beliefs, it questions the already existing ones. So, your Harry potter example is severely flawed.

That's the difference between a Muslim and an Agnostic Muslim.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Sikhism is a Dharmic faith, and its fundamental belief is monotheism.

IMVHO, Sikhism is more complex than monotheism, and also it not Polytheism either. By calling it monotheism we may be drawing sharp lines and limiting it's scope

An Abstract, non-dualistic D) concept of god isn't just monotheism

Well, there's a difference between a Muslim and an Agnostic Muslim.

Let AM (the member) articulate his beliefs

 

[Tronic]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

IMVHO, Sikhism is more complex than monotheism, and also it not Polytheism either. By calling it monotheism you're drawing sharp lines and limiting it's scope

An Abstract, non-dualistic D) concept of god isn't just monotheism

mon·o·the·ism/ˈmänəˌTHēˌizəm/
Noun: The doctrine or belief that there is only one God.

So yes, Sikhism is a monotheistic religion.

Being Panentheistic, does not make it non-Monotheistic.

It's the same as the Baha'i faith, Sufi Islam and Imami Shia Islam. Certain Jewish and Christian branches also hold a Panentheistic view of God. This does not make any of these religions non-Monotheistic.

Let AM (the member) articulate his beliefs

I only jumped into the fray seeing others preaching him what his beliefs can be, or cannot be.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

So yes, Sikhism is a monotheistic religion.

That definition does not include how "God" is being interpreted. It assumes a particular concept of "God"

Being Panentheistic, does not make it non-Monotheistic.

It's the same as the Baha'i faith, Sufi Islam and Imami Shia Islam. Certain Jewish and Christian branches also hold a Panentheistic view of God. This does not make any of these religions non-Monotheistic.

Pantheism is another euro-centric "ism", Drawing sharp lines when they don't exist and trivializing belief systems

I only jumped into the fray seeing others preaching him what his beliefs can be, or cannot be.

He may believe in anything. But I stand by what I said, Islam is fundamentally incompatible with Agnosticism.

 

[Tronic]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

That definition does not include how "God" is being interpreted. It assumes a particular concept of "God"

The definition comes from the Greek words, "Monos" (single) and "Theos" (god). The definition of God in Sikhism is à©´, i.e., "Ek" (one) and "Onkar" (God).

The first word, in the first verse, on the first page of Guru Granth Sahib describes the fundamental concept of God in Sikhi, and that is, "One God".

Pantheism is another euro-centric "ism", Drawing sharp lines when they don't exist and trivializing belief systems

No Lurker, Panentheism (not Pantheism) is a universal definition which incorporates the Sikh concept of God in defining that term. Mate, I think you are drawing sharp lines where they don't exist.

He may believe in anything. But I stand by what I said, Islam is fundamentally incompatible with Agnosticism.

It means you both may believe in anything. Cheers!

 

[civfanatic]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Only Abrahamic faiths are truly monotheistic.

The first monotheistic religion was Zoroastrianism. There is a very heavy Zoroastrian influence on Christianity and Islam by way of Judaism. Many modern aspects of Abrahamic religions were adopted by the Jews from the Persians when Cyrus liberated them from Babylon and allowed them to resettle in the Holy Land. Even today Cyrus is viewed as a messiah by the Jews.

Both dualistic (Zoroastrian) and non-dualistic (Dharmic) systems of thought were first articulated by Aryas (Persians and Indians, respectively).

 

[LurkerBaba]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

The definition comes from the Greek words, "Monos" (single) and "Theos" (god). The definition of God in Sikhism is à©´, i.e., "Ek" (one) and "Onkar" (God).

The first word, in the first verse, on the first page of Guru Granth Sahib describes the fundamental concept of God in Sikhi, and that is, "One God".

The Greeks never used the term "Monotheism", Monism was all they could come up with. This word was coined later in Christian Europe and was used in a particular context. "God" then was mostly an all powerful, possibly male entity.

But what does "Onkar" mean ? Is the Sikh concept of god same as the Islamic or the Christian concept of God ?

No Lurker, Panentheism (not Pantheism) is a universal definition which incorporates the Sikh concept of God in defining that term. Mate, I think you are drawing sharp lines where they don't exist.

Okay, I thought you meant Pantheism. Which would be weird since some of the examples like Christianity can't ever be Pantheistic. Google tells me that Panetheism was formulated to reconcile Pantheism and Monotheism

The first monotheistic religion was Zoroastrianism. There is a very heavy Zoroastrian influence on Christianity and Islam by way of Judaism. Many modern aspects of Abrahamic religions were adopted by the Jews from the Persians when Cyrus liberated them from Babylon and allowed them to resettle in the Holy Land. Even today Cyrus is viewed almost as a messiah by the Jews.

Both dualistic (Zoroastrian) and non-dualistic (Dharmic) systems of thought were first articulated by Aryas (Persians and Indians, respectively).

Doesn't Zoroastrianism have two deities ? One good and one evil ?

 

[civfanatic]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Doesn't Zoroastrianism have two deities ? One good and one evil ?

In Zoroastrianism, Ohrmazd (Ahura Mazda) is the personification of Good and Ahriman (Angra Mainyu) is the personification of Evil. Only Ohrmazd is worshipped, not Ahriman. The Zoroastrian concept of moral dualism was adopted by the Abrahamic religions and is represented by them as "God" and the "Devil".

 

[Razor]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

In Zoroastrianism, Ohrmazd (Ahura Mazda) is the personification of Good and Ahriman (Angra Mainyu) is the personification of Evil. Only Ohrmazd is worshipped, not Ahriman. The Zoroastrian concept of moral dualism was adopted by the Abrahamic religions and is represented by them as "God" and the "Devil".

Some people say, that Zoroastrianism evolved out of the Vedic religion(s). And that they were opposed to the Vedic religion, this is why the say, Asura(bad guys in Vedic) became Ahura(good guy in Zoroastrianism) etc. Any truth in this ?

 

[civfanatic]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Some people say, that Zoroastrianism evolved out of the Vedic religion(s). And that they were opposed to the Vedic religion, this is why the say, Asura(bad guys in Vedic) became Ahura(good guy in Zoroastrianism) etc. Any truth in this ?

Yes. The religion of the pre-Zoroastrian Iranians was very similar (if not the very same) to that of the Vedic Indians. Also, the language of these early Iranians was Avestan, which is mutually comprehensible with Vedic Sanskrit. Zarathustra/Zoroaster was opposed to some Vedic practices and how Vedic gods were depicted, so he started a reform movement which resulted in the creation of a separate religion. Something similar happened in India when the Upanishads were written, which were actually criticisms of the Vedas, but nothing on the same scale as Zoroastrianism emerged until Siddharth Gautama and Mahavir propagated Buddhism/Jainism.

 

[Razor]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Yes. The religion of the pre-Zoroastrian Iranians was very similar (if not the very same) to that of the Vedic Indians. Also, the language of these early Iranians was Avestan, which is mutually comprehensible with Vedic Sanskrit. Zarathustra/Zoroaster was opposed to some Vedic practices and how Vedic gods were depicted, so he started a reform movement which resulted in the creation of a separate religion. Something similar happened in India when the Upanishads were written, which were actually criticisms of the Vedas, but nothing on the same scale as Zoroastrianism emerged until Siddharth Gautama and Mahavir propagated Buddhism/Jainism.

Okay. Nice.
But tell me, did the word Ahura evolve out of Asura ? I mean, was he that pissed off with the Vedic system ?

 

[Tronic]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

The Greeks never used the term "Monotheism", Monism was all they could come up with. This word was coined later in Christian Europe and was used in a particular context. "God" then was mostly an all powerful, possibly male entity.

I said the word is derived from the Greek language, not that it is derived by the Greeks!

As for the coinage of the word, and it's usage, it was coined by the English philosopher Henry More, and used as a universal definition to describe any school of thought invoking a single, all powerful entity. Male, female, genderless, etc, etc, are all attributes which fall outside this definition and pertain to individual religions.

But what does "Onkar" mean ?

The first chapter of the Granth Sahib is solely dedicated to describing God;

One Universal Creator. Truth is his name. The Creator of all things. One without fear. Without hatred. Beyond the chains of time, birth and death. Self-existent. Enlightener. Gracious. - Japji
......
God is neither appointed nor created. He's self-existent, the Immaculate one. (Jap)
.....
Though a better form of life be attained through good actions, salvation comes only through God's Grace and Benediction. (Jap. 5)
.....
Everywhere is God's Seat, everywhere His Stall. And, He puts in it what He wills once for all. (Jap. 31)
.....
All Truth, all Penances, all Goodness, all Miracles, all Merits of the adepts, the Intuitive powers, no one has found without Thee, O God! (Asa M. 1)
.....
God alone Gives and His Givings know no bounds. (Asa M. 1)
....
Thou Thyself separated (the egoists) from Thee, and it is Thou that united them again to Thyself. (Asa M. 4)
....
How shall we become fearless if we do not fear the Lord and merge in His Word. (Sri Rag M. 1)
....
He alone is Wise, Beneficent, of tender heart, of pure form and vast, thy Friend, Protector, Highest of the high. He is neither young nor old. His court is eternal. We gather from Him what we seek, for, He's the only Shelter of the Shelterless. He is the Treasure of good, the ever-fresh Being, whose gifts are perfect. (Sri Rag M. 3)

Beyond this, Nanak says that God cannot fully be comprehended by us.

So, God in Sikhism is essentially a non-dualistic Panentheistic God, one who is timeless and simultaneously exists everywhere. Do not confuse this with the Pantheistic God, where God is the universe itself!

Is the Sikh concept of god same as the Islamic or the Christian concept of God ?

That's a very vague question.

Comparing the mainstream Sunni and Catholic concepts of God, they are very different and not the same. The Catholic concept of the Trinity is very far from the Islamic concept of God.

If we take Eastern Orthodox sect of Christianity, followed by Russia and Eastern Europe, than it is very similar to the Sikh concept of God, and far away from the Catholic concept of the trinity!

As I said before, you are trying to draw sharp lines where none exist.

Okay, I thought you meant Pantheism. Which would be weird since some of the examples like Christianity can't ever be Pantheistic. Google tells me that Panetheism was formulated to reconcile Pantheism and Monotheism

There you have it than. Panentheistic does not mean non-monotheistic.

Doesn't Zoroastrianism have two deities ? One good and one evil ?

"God" and the "Devil".

 

[LurkerBaba]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

I said the word is derived from the Greek language, not that it is derived by the Greeks!

As for the coinage of the word, and it's usage, it was coined by the English philosopher Henry More, and used as a universal definition to describe any school of thought invoking a single, all powerful entity. Male, female, genderless, etc, etc, are all attributes which fall outside this definition and pertain to individual religions.

Yes it comes from Reverend Henry More's "An Explanation of the Grand Mystery of Godliness: A True and Faithfull Representation of the Everlasting Gospel of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"

I don't think his outlook is universal at all . Let's simply agree to disagree

The first chapter of the Granth Sahib is solely dedicated to describing God;

One Universal Creator. Truth is his name. The Creator of all things. One without fear. Without hatred. Beyond the chains of time, birth and death. Self-existent. Enlightener. Gracious. - Japji
......
God is neither appointed nor created. He's self-existent, the Immaculate one. (Jap)
.....
Though a better form of life be attained through good actions, salvation comes only through God's Grace and Benediction. (Jap. 5)
.....
Everywhere is God's Seat, everywhere His Stall. And, He puts in it what He wills once for all. (Jap. 31)
.....
All Truth, all Penances, all Goodness, all Miracles, all Merits of the adepts, the Intuitive powers, no one has found without Thee, O God! (Asa M. 1)
.....
God alone Gives and His Givings know no bounds. (Asa M. 1)
....
Thou Thyself separated (the egoists) from Thee, and it is Thou that united them again to Thyself. (Asa M. 4)
....
How shall we become fearless if we do not fear the Lord and merge in His Word. (Sri Rag M. 1)
....
He alone is Wise, Beneficent, of tender heart, of pure form and vast, thy Friend, Protector, Highest of the high. He is neither young nor old. His court is eternal. We gather from Him what we seek, for, He's the only Shelter of the Shelterless. He is the Treasure of good, the ever-fresh Being, whose gifts are perfect. (Sri Rag M. 3)
Beyond this, Nanak says that God cannot fully be comprehended by us.

So, God in Sikhism is essentially a non-dualistic Panentheistic God, one who is timeless and simultaneously exists everywhere. Do not confuse this with the Pantheistic God, where God is the universe itself!

Thanks. I think I'll try to read the Guru Granth Sahib

That's a very vague question.

Comparing the mainstream Sunni and Catholic concepts of God, they are very different and not the same. The Catholic concept of the Trinity is very far from the Islamic concept of God.

If we take Eastern Orthodox sect of Christianity, followed by Russia and Eastern Europe, than it is very similar to the Sikh concept of God, and far away from the Catholic concept of the trinity!

As I said before, you are trying to draw sharp lines where none exist.

Christian belief was standardized after the first Council of Nicaea. The sects may differ, but they agree on some fundamental axioms. Eastern Orthodox is interesting, they don't really believe in Original Sin. But then again, the Nicene Creed doesn't say anything about Original Sin

 

[trackwhack]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Not a Hindu. All major Hindu schools of thought have a heavy agnostic component.

Dont agree completely. Dvaitha approach clearly defines Vishnu/Narayana as the supreme being. There is no confusion there. Whereas Vishista Dwaitha approach has some ambiguity.

Most modern Hindus do not understand either way.

 

[trackwhack]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

No, it's not an oxymoron.

Agnostic theism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not even the same thing.

Agnostic Theism only acknowledges that a supreme creator/preserver exists. It does not add a proper noun to it. When a proper noun in added, it becomes religion. Agnostic Theism differs from Agnosticism only because agnosticism is ambiguous about the existance of the supreme itself while the former acknowledges that the supreme exists but it cannot be comprehended.

 

[Agnostic Muslim]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Let AM (the member) articulate his beliefs

Well, so far Tronic has done a pretty good job in explaining how the term is not necessarily an 'oxymoron'.

I would argue that my moniker is in a sense analogous to the dissonance between 'national identity' (nationalism) and a belief that all human beings are relatively equal - I am a Pakistani nationalist, but at the same time I have Arab, Indian and (white and black) American friends, with whom I interact without paying attention to their nationality, religion or skin color.

But by virtue of being a 'Pakistani nationalist' (or Indian nationalist) one could argue that I consider Pakistan and Pakistanis 'superior' to other nations and people, but I don't.

I identify myself as a Muslim because that is the faith in which I was raised, and because it played a significant role in shaping me into the individual I am today. I define myself as an Agnostic because I don't view my faith as being superior to other faiths, and I don't view people who practice a different faith (or no faith) any differently than I do those who practice Islam. What does color my opinion about people (whether Hindu, Muslim, atheists) is how they themselves deal with differences of race and religion.

Cheers

AM

 

[Sabir]

Uneven distribution of pain to the people proves that pain is given according to your deeds, and so "Karma" is the source of all the pains and happiness.

Yet it has become a fashion to call oneself an atheist, people who say that they are theist are seen with a sense of dishonour. Everything is westernising, even people are adopting the bad practices as they see it as a fashion, it gives them a false sense of modernity , they think that they have become modern by rejecting the God and the religion. Bad approach !

There is nothing special to be an atheist. Just dont feel the concept of Allah what is my family (and most of the Muslims) believe or the concept most of the Hindus believe. Most of the people around us, Hindu ,Muslim alike consider God to be a entity (or entities) who keeps an eye upon us, punish or reward us for our wrong doings and control everything. Sorry, cant believe it. It looks like God is a huge child playing never ending video games and we all are characters of the game.

 

[natarajan]

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty. He asks one of his new students to stand and..... Prof: So you believe in God? Student: Absolutely, sir. Prof : Is God good? Student: Sure. Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student : Yes..
Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm? (Student is silent.)
Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?
Student: Yes. Prof: Is Satan good? Student : No.
Prof: Where does Satan come from? Student: From....God...
Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world? Student: Yes. Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct? Student: Yes.
Prof: So who created evil? (Student does not answer.)
Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student: Yes, sir.
Prof: So, who created them? (Student has no answer.)
Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student: No, sir. Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God? Student: No, sir. Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter? Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Prof: Yet you still believe in Him? Student: Yes. Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.
Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.
Student: No sir. There isn't. (The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.) Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold . Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat . We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy . Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it . (There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor.Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir? (The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)
Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class is in uproar.)
Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain? (The class breaks out into laughter.) Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain,sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir? (The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)
Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son. Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH . That is all that keeps things moving & alive. NB: I believe you have enjoyed the conversation...and if so...you'll probably want your friends/colleagues to enjoy the same...won't you?.... This is a true story, and the student was none other than......... APJ Abdul Kalam, the former president of India .