Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[The Ultranationalist]

Sometimes I feel that instead of costly and inferior to flankers; rafales, we should have gone for Su 35s.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Sometimes I feel that instead of costly and inferior to flankers; rafales, we should have gone for Su 35s.

I was going to say the same thing but it'll probably start a flame war.

 

[binayak95]

Sometimes I feel that instead of costly and inferior to flankers; rafales, we should have gone for Su 35s.

The Russians cheated us with the MKIs... who wants to go for them again... Besides not much of an improvement over the MKI except the AESA radar which will be negated by the Super Sukhoi upgrade.

The major issue with MKIs (and this is exacerbated by the Su-35s) is fuel costs and maintenance issue.

 

[Kshithij]

Sometimes I feel that instead of costly and inferior to flankers; rafales, we should have gone for Su 35s.

I believe that the ToT from France was of much higher strategic importance. The weapons package like meteor missiles are also of high technology and the motor can be studied for reverse engineering. Otherwise, rafale is a bad deal.

 

[Kshithij]

The Russians cheated us with the MKIs... who wants to go for them again... Besides not much of an improvement over the MKI except the AESA radar which will be negated by the Super Sukhoi upgrade.

The major issue with MKIs (and this is exacerbated by the Su-35s) is fuel costs and maintenance issue.

The amount of ToT India received for a low price could never have been matched by anyone else. Indian aerospace industry grew because of Su30 MKI. Otherwise, Indian aerospace was in bad shape in 2000s. I would not say that Russians cheated. Su30 and the ToT is worth much more than the price we paid. Try getting that from USA

 

[Armand2REP]

Sometimes I feel that instead of costly and inferior to flankers; rafales, we should have gone for Su 35s.

An Su-35 is just a Flanker on steroids, it doesn't bring any new capabilities to the table. With all of the 3rd party systems the MKI is arguably a better overall plane. It would be better and cheaper to get the Super 30 upgrade, if someone can just decide what that is going to be exactly.

 

[binayak95]

The amount of ToT India received for a low price could never have been matched by anyone else. Indian aerospace industry grew because of Su30 MKI. Otherwise, Indian aerospace was in bad shape in 2000s. I would not say that Russians cheated. Su30 and the ToT is worth much more than the price we paid. Try getting that from USA

Oh, do shut up about things you have no inkling about. And stop quoting my posts. I have no interest to talk to you.

 

[Kshithij]

Can @binayak95 explain if India did not have Su30 jets ToT, would India be able to be as strong as it is today? Just criticising without an alternative is unacceptable. We don't live in a perfect world. Su30 was the best we got. And due to full toT, India is now capable of making them in house. India would not have been capable of making any plane otherwise.

 

[Sancho]

The only thing AIP does is recharge the battery, it does not change the noise level of the submarine.

Lol right.

And those aguosta 90b submarines use MESMA not any advance AIP which is clearly generations behind the new gen fuel cells.

It doesn't matter what kind of AIP you have, it's always better than not having it at all. Just as any 5th gen fighter is stealthier than a Su 30. Either you have AIP or you don't, either you have stealth fighters, or you don't. The side that has this capability, has the advantage.

 

[Sancho]

Has anyone ever seen a pic or video of a sukhoi (27, 30, 35) with external fuel tanks? I've been scouring the net for such a pic with no luck. Do these jets NEVER use external fuel tanks?

The Su 34 is often seen with the PTB-2000 fuel tanks and the Su 35 is configured for them too. But in operational service, they are not used, since the add weight and drag, so mainly for extended ferry flights only.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Lol right.



It doesn't matter what kind of AIP you have, it's always better than not having it at all. Just as any 5th gen fighter is stealthier than a Su 30. Either you have AIP or you don't, either you have stealth fighters, or you don't. The side that has this capability, has the advantage.

That's more than a crap. MESMA is termed as "noisy", "obsolete" AIP by scientist community. It's like an stealth fighter flying with drop tanks. And these mesma are less adventageous, as they literally halt the movement of the submarine at just 2 to 3knots, while required many days to charge the batteries. By that time rip when ASW asset is coming to hunt, or either hide you ass at 100s of meter depth thus depriving your self from any awareness of modern warfare.

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[Sancho]

That's more than a crap. MESMA is termed as "noisy", "obsolete" AIP by scientist community.

Lol even if that would be true, it's still less noisy as a diesel-electric propulsion. That's simple logic that you are denying here, just for the sake of denying.

Any AIP is better than conventional propulsions, just as any stealth design is better than conventional design.

 

[Kshithij]

Lol even if that would be true, it's still less noisy as a diesel-electric propulsion. That's simple logic that you are denying here, just for the sake of denying.

Any AIP is better than conventional propulsions, just as any stealth design is better than conventional design.

This discussion started with chinese submarines in Indian oceans. If Chinese have to come to OR, it has to be by nuclear submarine. So, AIP does not matter at all. AIP is indeed better than no AIP, but is irrelevant for nuclear submarine.

Also, DRDO developed AIP has been tested successfully and will be used in next batch of 3 more P75 submarines. So, AIP technology is there in India as of now.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Lol even if that would be true, it's still less noisy as a diesel-electric propulsion. That's simple logic that you are denying here, just for the sake of denying. [emoji38]

Any AIP is better than conventional propulsions, just as any stealth design is better than conventional design.

First AIP is used when you have to recharge your batteries, not when you're moving for various missions, so as diesel generators which are shut off during the mission and only turned on during snorkeling. With AIP they literally move during charging of their batteries, but with older submarines their inherent noise is enough to get detected at depths AT Which an anti submarine asset like P8 can detect .

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[Enquirer]

but with older submarines their inherent noise is enough to get detected at depths AT Which an anti submarine asset like P8 can detect .

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P8s don't detect the submarine noise, but the distortion in the magnetic field (due to the metallic submarine hull). P8s carry a MAD boom (magnetic anomaly detector) on their tail! So, a shallow sub which has its diesel engine running or not, P8s can detect them.

You're partly right in implication that shallow subs (non-AIP enabled) will be easier for P8s (MAD boom) to detect while merely flying by. To detect deep submerged subs P8s will need to drop sonobuoys and listen - which actively 'ping', so even an AIP enabled subs can be detected by P8s

 

[Sancho]

If Chinese have to come to OR, it has to be by nuclear submarine. So, AIP does not matter at all.

The usual misinformations of you:

China is here to Stay in Indian Ocean, And is a Cause of Concern- Indian Navy Chief

...Earlier this year, navy chief said that PLA Navy have six to seven warships deployed in the region and they also send two conventional submarines in the area every year.

http://defencelover.in/china-is-her...ian-navy-chief/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

[Steven Rogers]

P8s don't detect the submarine noise, but the distortion in the magnetic field (due to the metallic submarine hull). P8s carry a MAD boom (magnetic anomaly detector) on their tail! So, a shallow sub which has its diesel engine running or not, P8s can detect them.

You're partly right in implication that shallow subs (non-AIP enabled) will be easier for P8s (MAD boom) to detect while merely flying by. To detect deep submerged subs P8s will need to drop sonobuoys and listen - which actively 'ping', so even an AIP enabled subs can be detected by P8s

Oh yeah thanks for correction, I should have mentioned ASW assets like towed array or variable array sonars by ASW ships rather P8I.

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[Kshithij]

The usual misinformations of you:


http://defencelover.in/china-is-her...ian-navy-chief/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Chinese conventional submarines can only come upto bay of bengal. The distance between Chinese port and A&N is 4000+km. To and fro it becomes 8000+km. It is difficult to travel much further. Also, the submarines have to pass via malacca which is too shallow to remain undetected. Even the best AIP submarine will be detected in Malacca. So, the only way to send submarines in war time is by round about manner.

These kind of submarines which they are sending via Malacca is simply unviable to be used in war. So, it is possible to send diesel submarines but not meaningful. No submarine can hide in Malacca and hence there is no question of stealth with or without AIP

 

[Armand2REP]

Chinese conventional submarines can only come upto bay of bengal. The distance between Chinese port and A&N is 4000+km. To and fro it becomes 8000+km. It is difficult to travel much further. Also, the submarines have to pass via malacca which is too shallow to remain undetected. Even the best AIP submarine will be detected in Malacca. So, the only way to send submarines in war time is by round about manner.

These kind of submarines which they are sending via Malacca is simply unviable to be used in war. So, it is possible to send diesel submarines but not meaningful. No submarine can hide in Malacca and hence there is no question of stealth with or without AIP

I am pretty sure the PLAN has submarine tenders. There are other ways to get to IOR bypassing Malacca.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Chinese conventional submarines can only come upto bay of bengal. The distance between Chinese port and A&N is 4000+km. To and fro it becomes 8000+km. It is difficult to travel much further. Also, the submarines have to pass via malacca which is too shallow to remain undetected. Even the best AIP submarine will be detected in Malacca. So, the only way to send submarines in war time is by round about manner.

These kind of submarines which they are sending via Malacca is simply unviable to be used in war. So, it is possible to send diesel submarines but not meaningful. No submarine can hide in Malacca and hence there is no question of stealth with or without AIP

That's hilarious, he claimed that Chinese made 1000snds of kilometers of voyage with conventional sub continous [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] . The longest voyage by an conventional submarine ever done was by a German submarine with most advance FUEL CELL AIP and that's too 2800kms, and approx 16 days. That's the longest so far and some one like him need to see the reality of actual vs paper. Their is no way a Chinese sub can come direct from China to Indian Ocean without being reappeared at the docks in the way. They will run out of supplies.

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