Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[LETHALFORCE]

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India and Russia sign major aircraft deal

 

[Illusive]

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That girl makes MKI look like an Airbus

 

[Defcon 1]

Hardpoints/Payload:
Su-30MKI = 12/8000kg
Rafale = 14/9500kg (hmmm - probably 10 A2A missiles for both- the hardpoints also carry the targeting pods, the spectra suite etc - right?)

@ace009

How can Rafale have higher payload than MKI? Also, wiki mentions the difference between the loaded weight and MTOW of MKI to be around 14000 kg.

 

[p2prada]

@ace009

How can Rafale have higher payload than MKI? Also, wiki mentions the difference between the loaded weight and MTOW of MKI to be around 14000 kg.

MKI carries twice as much fuel while the Rafale's wings are designed to carry more loads. However the inner hardpoints of the MKI are rated to carry 2 tonnes vs Rafale's 1.5 tonnes. Pretty soon MKI will be rated to carry 3 tonnes on the center hardpoint for the Brahmos. Nevertheless Rafale will have 5 heavy points vs 3 on MKI. So therein lies the difference.

In the end one Rafale needs two or three drop tanks to do the work of one MKI with the same payload.

MTOW of MKI is 36 to 38 tonnes. If you are referring to total payload (+ fuel) above empty weight, that's 8 tonnes for weapons and 9.5 tonnes for fuel = 17.5 tonnes for MKI vs 9.5 tonnes of payload + 4.5 tonnes of fuel = 14 tonnes for Rafale.

Aircraft like Su-35 exceed that. 8 tonnes (???) weapons and 11.5 tonnes fuel = 19.5 tonnes payload.

 

[Armand2REP]

@ace009

How can Rafale have higher payload than MKI? Also, wiki mentions the difference between the loaded weight and MTOW of MKI to be around 14000 kg.

Because its delta wing and low weight construction give it better wing loading.

 

[Defcon 1]

MKI carries twice as much fuel while the Rafale's wings are designed to carry more loads. However the inner hardpoints of the MKI are rated to carry 2 tonnes vs Rafale's 1.5 tonnes. Pretty soon MKI will be rated to carry 3 tonnes on the center hardpoint for the Brahmos. Nevertheless Rafale will have 5 heavy points vs 3 on MKI. So therein lies the difference.

In the end one Rafale needs two or three drop tanks to do the work of one MKI with the same payload.

MTOW of MKI is 36 to 38 tonnes. If you are referring to total payload (+ fuel) above empty weight, that's 8 tonnes for weapons and 9.5 tonnes for fuel = 17.5 tonnes for MKI vs 9.5 tonnes of payload + 4.5 tonnes of fuel = 14 tonnes for Rafale.

Aircraft like Su-35 exceed that. 8 tonnes (???) weapons and 11.5 tonnes fuel = 19.5 tonnes payload.

Ok. One more question, aren't lesser number of heavier hardpoints less useful when compared to higher number of lighter hardpoints? BVR missiles are about 200 kg in weight and LGBs are around 1000lb. Given that, I find it hard to think of usefulness of heavy hardpoints unless they are required to carry external fuel tanks or A2G missiles like Brahmos, unless of course, multi ejector racks are used. If the aircraft is being used for air superiority, It won't carry Brahmos, so in that case, how will we utilize the total payload of an aircraft like MKI?

 

[K Factor]

Scientists develop stealth tech - Times Of India



Prithvijit Mitra, Mar 26, 2006,
10.51am IST
KOLKATA: India could soon be the third country in the world, after the US and France, to have a stealth bomber fighter aircraft in its armoury.
The Kolkata-based Indian Association for Cultivation of Science (IACS) has developed a technology to convert ordinary light combat aircraft into stealth jets that would go undetected on radar. The first stage of the experiment, which commenced in 1999, has been successfully concluded. The defence ministry has approved the technology and has given the go-ahead for "full-scale production" to begin. It is expected to start in about six months' time. According to IACS scientists associated with the project, the technology uses a special material to construct a shield on the plexi-glass canopies. It is the glass cover of the cockpit that usually betrays the presence of an aircraft as it reflects the laser beam that is emitted to catch them on the radar. The shield will cover the cockpit and deflect the laser beam on the shield in all directions. "This will make sure the aircraft remains undetected on the radar. We are not sure if the same technology is used in France and the US. It has been developed in our own way and using our own techniques. If it works out well, this would be a big step for defence technology in India," said a scientist.
Defence officials said the advanced combat aircraft made in the US and France have a similar shield on the plexi-glass canopies. "This shield gives the canopies a golden tinge. This special layer scatters the laser beams emitted from a radar site either on the ground or in the air (AWACS). We've been trying to develop this technology for some time. The shield developed by IACS will boost our indigenisation efforts," an official said.
During the exercises at Kalaikunda where US F-16s took part, IAF officials got a closer look at the gold-tinted canopies. They also got a chance to test the technique by using ground-based radar. Interestingly, the F-16s from Singapore did not have the shield as the technology has not been transferred.
The defence authorities were so impressed with the new technology that they decided to fast-track the process and start full-scale production of the canopy following a test at Jodhpur recently. "They had the option of going for a pilot project initially but they chose to skip it," said an IACS official. Fighter jets like Jaguars, MiGs, Mirages and Sukhois will now be fitted with this special canopy to enhance their stealth capabilities.
* so my question is - is it canopy which is fitted with mki ?

These journos these lose their credibility with errors like this - at least they should do some research into what they are writing about.

Also, the gold tinted canopies are in use in USAF since more than 2 decades.

 

[p2prada]

Ok. One more question, aren't lesser number of heavier hardpoints less useful when compared to higher number of lighter hardpoints? BVR missiles are about 200 kg in weight and LGBs are around 1000lb. Given that, I find it hard to think of usefulness of heavy hardpoints unless they are required to carry external fuel tanks or A2G missiles like Brahmos, unless of course, multi ejector racks are used. If the aircraft is being used for air superiority, It won't carry Brahmos, so in that case, how will we utilize the total payload of an aircraft like MKI?

MKI can also carry an LGB called the KAB-1500. It is a 3000lb bomb and 3 can be carried. Packs a lot of punch.

In air to air roles, the lack of heavy payload would mean greater thrust to weight ratio and less drag.

More hardpoints, the better. MKI can carry 14 missiles using multi ejector racks. Rafale can carry 12 or 10 + 2 drop tanks. That's considered plenty.

 

[WMD]

the deal for 42 MKI signed recently is for super sukhoi or normal MKI?
can somebody give some info regarding super sukhoi time line?
AFAIK the upgradation of MKIs to super sukhoi standard will b done with the integration of BrahMos.

 

[SajeevJino]

@WMD
The Recent Purchase of Sukhoi were MKI Version ..IAF going to upgrade it's all Su 30 MKI versions into Super Sukhoi the Process should start after 2016 ..and may be the Trails of Brahmos air launch version Should Be starter later this Year ..Super Sukhoi Had The Advanced AESA radar and Avionics suites
as per HAL Report May the Process takes 10000 Crore Rupees in 2011and the MOD doesn't give single rupee to upgrade the Su 30

 

[WMD]

@WMD
The Recent Purchase of Sukhoi were MKI Version ..IAF going to upgrade it's all Su 30 MKI versions into Super Sukhoi the Process should start after 2016 ..and may be the Trails of Brahmos air launch version Should Be starter later this Year ..Super Sukhoi Had The Advanced AESA radar and Avionics suites
as per HAL Report May the Process takes 10000 Crore Rupees in 2011and the MOD doesn't give single rupee to upgrade the Su 30

man 2016 seems a little far,
i mean we wont' see an FGFA before 2015, so induction is around 2020
at the current rate the negotiations r going on, the 1st sqdn of rafale won't come before 2017.
LCA Mk-II is also delayed, no decision abt AMCA.
everything is delayed, so i thought MKI upgrade will be fast-tracked but no, no relief there.
besides by 2016 the first batch of MKIs would hav served 15yrs and !st upgrade is done after 10yrs, so i'm a little worried abt IAF,

 

[Defcon 1]

@WMD
The Recent Purchase of Sukhoi were MKI Version ..IAF going to upgrade it's all Su 30 MKI versions into Super Sukhoi the Process should start after 2016 ..and may be the Trails of Brahmos air launch version Should Be starter later this Year ..Super Sukhoi Had The Advanced AESA radar and Avionics suites
as per HAL Report May the Process takes 10000 Crore Rupees in 2011and the MOD doesn't give single rupee to upgrade the Su 30

I believe only 50 sukhois are being upgraded to super sukhoi standard.

 

[SajeevJino]

I believe only 50 sukhois are being upgraded to super sukhoi standard.

Nope IAF going to Upgrade all of it's Su 30 MKI to Super Sukhoi Standard ..and the First of 60 would be upgraded after 2016 then they continue to upgrade all of it's Su 30 MKI into Super Sukhoi's....IAF get operational AESA Fighter only after 2016 ..

 

[WMD]

I believe only 50 sukhois are being upgraded to super sukhoi standard.

where did u got that?

 

[Shirman]

Hello, Guys

I wanted to ask that is the latest version of r-77 available on our su-30mki (r-77m.) I mean new Izdeliye 180 upgrade of the R-77. I know its likely expected to enter service around 2014. The ramjet-powered version of the R-77 (often referred to as R-77M-PD or RVV-AE-PD) which @Dr. Somnath posted as future weapon in the IAF missile arsenal has been scrapped in 2005.....though Russians can provide it if you show them money.... as Russians have gone for RVV-BD instead. Any Russian specialist members @p2prada or @Austin can help me with details....

Thanks in advance..........

 

[WMD]

Nope IAF going to Upgrade all of it's Su 30 MKI to Super Sukhoi Standard ..and the First of 60 would be upgraded after 2016 then they continue to upgrade all of it's Su 30 MKI into Super Sukhoi's....IAF get operational AESA Fighter only after 2016 ..

I believe only 50 sukhois are being upgraded to super sukhoi standard.

is there any plan to equip super sukhois with a newer engine with better thrust than AL-31FP or the new contract for 1000 such engines effectively end any such speculation?

 

[p2prada]

42 Super MKIs to be made in HAL to be made and delivered from 2014-15.

First 50 (32 that came directly from Russia and 18 assembled by HAL the first time) MKIs to be upgraded to Super MKI standards in the first phase. 6 to be upgraded in Russia, followed by the rest by HAL.

The upgrade may be fleet wide, but too early to speculate.

Hello, Guys

I wanted to ask that is the latest version of r-77 available on our su-30mki (r-77m.) I mean new Izdeliye 180 upgrade of the R-77. I know its likely expected to enter service around 2014. The ramjet-powered version of the R-77 (often referred to as R-77M-PD or RVV-AE-PD) which @Dr. Somnath posted as future weapon in the IAF missile arsenal has been scrapped in 2005.....though Russians can provide it if you show them money.... as Russians have gone for RVV-BD instead. Any Russian specialist members @p2prada or @Austin can help me with details....

Thanks in advance..........

There are two version of the new R-77. One is the Izdeliye 180 which is also called R-77M and is meant for the VVS. The second is the Izdeliye 170-1 or the RVV-SD and is meant for export (to India and others).

The R-77M is slightly superior to the RVV-SD. Both are more or less in the Aim-120 C7 standards.

I don't know what's happening with the RAMJET version. RVV-BD (200 Km+)is a long range missile for export.

is there any plan to equip super sukhois with a newer engine with better thrust than AL-31FP or the new contract for 1000 such engines effectively end any such speculation?

IMHO, we may get an upgraded version of the AL-31FP with higher thrust. I don't see us getting the 117S, but we never know.

The contract for 940 AL-31FPs can always be upgraded to handle the new engine. These large contracts happen in phases anyway.

We will have to wait for official info regarding this. No point speculating about the engine and radar for the upgrade program.

 

[Shirman]

@p2prada

Thanks sir, Yes R-77M has better seekers, Extended range and some "powerful rocket motor" as compared to RVV-SD. NOOB QUESTION Can we employ say meteor or Astra in future on Su-30mki ? Some said that U have to take permission from Russians to Unlock or modify the mission computer ( I thought it was made by Isrealis"Elta") or provide some datalink backup since su-30s use russian based datalinks.

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada

Thanks sir, Yes R-77M has better seekers, Extended range and some "powerful rocket motor" as compared to RVV-SD. NOOB QUESTION Can we employ say meteor or Astra in future on Su-30mki ? Some said that U have to take permission from Russians to Unlock or modify the mission computer ( I thought it was made by Isrealis"Elta") or provide some datalink backup since su-30s use russian based datalinks.

R-77M and RVV-SD should be very similar, but yes there will be more advantages to the R-77M.

Astra Mk2 will see service on the MKI when the time comes. No issues with computers, nor is any permission necessary. Mission computer is our own. I think the old computers are being replaced with more powerful ones. Nothing to do with Israel.

Su-30s Russian datalinks will be upgraded with the new ODL (Operational Datalink) being made by Israel for IAF. The Russian links can only work on 4 MKIs while the ODL will be fleet wide, including UAVs and other C&C assets.

 

[Defcon 1]

where did u got that?

Can't remember. Its only logical, 2 billion dollars is far too less for upgrading 272 sukhois. If more money is released in the future, then maybe.......