Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Swiftfarts]

EW is never a substitute for true stealth, shaping and material is for majority part. F 35 and F 22 marble size RCS is from front only and that to at certain angles....over all RCS would be much higher. PAK-FA old prototype overall RCS was 0.1 m2 according to Sukhoi's own patent, frontal would be much less than that. i am more concerned about it's radar and sensors than anything, otherwise it's a good buy. as for S 400 being s**t.
well west should try flying those shiny F 35 over russian territory. Let's see how many F 35 survive on there own.

 

[Trololo]

So making an analogue of the Spectra will not be easy.
There are a few members who doubted that the Spectra can reduce the RCS of the Rafale.

What is the current French approach to stealth.
I believe that there is also something known as active stealth where ionisation principle is used. Are the French researching on active stealth.

Can you share Dassault's concept of a 5th generation fighter. Will it be different from the US approach.

Plasma stealth will need huge amounts of power to generate plasma cloud around aircraft.

 

[Bleh]

Quick by your logic India does not have the AIM-260 therefore the AIM-260 is crap and India is instead desperately buying Derby and Micas

Nope. Emojis can't make up for you running out of arguments.

We have the option to buy latest operational Russian BVRs & chose Derby/MICA over them (...apparently we bought some R-77-1/M but still felt the need to integrate Derby/Mica, which is even worse).

EW is never a substitute for true stealth, shaping and material is for majority part.

How can you possibly know that?

Stealth combined with would definitely be better, but there is no way you can know if Rafale's active jamming of radars or passive jamming of incoming threats will by be as just effective as F-22's stealth in similar scenario (& I'm not even counting tricks like drones mimicking phanton RCS, or jammer projecting RCS at incorrect location).

 

[BON PLAN]

Nope. Emojis can't make up for you running out of arguments.

We have the option to buy latest operational Russian BVRs & chose Derby/MICA over them (...apparently we bought some R-77-1/M but still felt the need to integrate Derby/Mica, which is even worse).
How can you possibly know that?

Stealth combined with would definitely be better, but there is no way you can know if Rafale's active jamming of radars or passive jamming of incoming threats will by be as just effective as F-22's stealth in similar scenario (& I'm not even counting tricks like drones mimicking phanton RCS, or jammer projecting RCS at incorrect location).

It is interesting to note that SPECTRA means in french : Systeme de Protection et d'Evitement des Conduites de Tir du RAfale = Rafale self protect and fire control avoidance system. ie the emphasis is not only to reduce the radar visibility, but also to avoid the foe weapon system to lock.
It was demonstrated during an exercise against GB Eurofighter, in Scotland if I remember well, where the british pilots were surprised they can sometines see the Rafale on their radar screen but unable to have a fire solution.

 

[Neptune]

Nope. Emojis can't make up for you running out of arguments.

We have the option to buy latest operational Russian BVRs & chose Derby/MICA over them (...apparently we bought some R-77-1/M but still felt the need to integrate Derby/Mica, which is even worse).
How can you possibly know that?

Stealth combined with would definitely be better, but there is no way you can know if Rafale's active jamming of radars or passive jamming of incoming threats will by be as just effective as F-22's stealth in similar scenario (& I'm not even counting tricks like drones mimicking phanton RCS, or jammer projecting RCS at incorrect location).

No India never was offered latest Russian BVR because it is not even in active Russian service. So explain how India would get the K-77M? By your logic the AIM-260 is crap too because India has not got it’s hand on it either.

You repeating your worthless and unfounded opinions does not constitute facts. The fact remains the K-77M is not operational anywhere thus it is impossible for India to get, therefore only no rational person would equate not being able to do obtain a particular missile to the missile being subpar.

 

[Bleh]

No India never was offered latest Russian BVR because it is not even in active Russian service. So explain how India would get the K-77M? By your logic the AIM-260 is crap too because India has not got it’s hand on it either.

You repeating your worthless and unfounded opinions does not constitute facts. The fact remains the K-77M is not operational anywhere thus it is impossible for India to get, therefore only no rational person would equate not being able to do obtain a particular missile to the missile being subpar.

Not K-77, I mentioned it clearly R-77-1 & possibly R-77M, whose on paper range is 110km & 190km.
On offer (probably bought after 27th Feb) but now IAF wants 60km ranged Derby & vintage MICA integrated to Su-30... They're that shitty! Based on that K-77 will very probably be shit too.

Do you have trouble understanding English? I don't know Russian so can't help you there.

 

[Swiftfarts]

How can you possibly know that?

Stealth combined with would definitely be better, but there is

If you are relying on jamming techniques to be stealthy alone , than penalty will be high. there is a limit to how far you can go. burn through range is a function of the target RCS , jamming ERP , the radars ERP and required J/S . since jamming power required to hide an aircraft is directly proportional to the plane RCS... a plane with smaller RCS like F 35, F 22 will reduce burn through range more than non stealth plane . Smaller the RCS...higher the J/S. Jamming by nature is emitting electromagnetic radiation which make you vulnerable if your RCS is high since emissions strength will be much higher. You will glow like a bulb for Home on jamming.

 

[Bleh]

If you are relying on jamming techniques to be stealthy alone , than penalty will be high. there is a limit to how far you can go. burn through range is a function of the target RCS , jamming ERP , the radars ERP and required J/S . since jamming power required to hide an aircraft is directly proportional to the plane RCS... a plane with smaller RCS like F 35, F 22 will reduce burn through range more than non stealth plane . Smaller the RCS...higher the J/S. Jamming by nature is emitting electromagnetic radiation which make you vulnerable if your RCS is high since emissions strength will be much higher. You will glow like a bulb for Home on jamming.

Yes, I agree as mentioned. RCS being low is inherently helpful... But I'm saying if you comparing with 0.005m² something of 0.5m², not a behemoth like Su-30 or F-15.

That significantly reduces the cost:effectiveness gap.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Yes, I agree as mentioned. RCS being low is inherently helpful... But I'm saying if you comparing with 0.005m² something of 0.5m², not a behemoth like Su-30 or F-15.

That significantly reduces the cost:effectiveness gap.

If Rafale has RCS of 0.5m2 and F 35 0.005m2 than that's still a RCS difference of 100. It will be around 30 to 40 between Rafale and SU 30 or F 15. People still do not realize the leap true stealth plane like F 35, F 22 provide over older generation planes.

 

[BON PLAN]

No India never was offered latest Russian BVR because it is not even in active Russian service. So explain how India would get the K-77M? By your logic the AIM-260 is crap too because India has not got it’s hand on it either.

You repeating your worthless and unfounded opinions does not constitute facts. The fact remains the K-77M is not operational anywhere thus it is impossible for India to get, therefore only no rational person would equate not being able to do obtain a particular missile to the missile being subpar.

Fact is that AIM260 is a project as for now.
And it is difficult to understand that a lighter missile, with classical booster (as AMRAAM) can be far better than AMRAAM. It's not impossible but I don't see what are the technological breakthrough to achieve that.
Smooth evolution as reducing the weight of the seeker, OK. Smooth evolution in the classical booster performance OK. But what else to achieve such huge improvement ?

 

[BON PLAN]

If Rafale has RCS of 0.5m2 and F 35 0.005m2 than that's still a RCS difference of 100. It will be around 30 to 40 between Rafale and SU 30 or F 15. People still do not realize the leap true stealth plane like F 35, F 22 provide over older generation planes.

The M2000 RCS is in the 1.2m2 region.
It was said by Bruno Revellin Falcoz (if I remember well) that the RCS of Rafale is more than 10 times smaller than those of M2000. So a global 0,1m2 without spectra.

 

[Neptune]

Not K-77, I mentioned it clearly R-77-1 & possibly R-77M, whose on paper range is 110km & 190km.
On offer (probably bought after 27th Feb) but now IAF wants 60km ranged Derby & vintage MICA integrated to Su-30... They're that shitty! Based on that K-77 will very probably be shit too.

Do you have trouble understanding English? I don't know Russian so can't help you there.

1. Where is your source India was offered R-77-1 and it rejected it?

2. India was never offered or given the R-77M or K-77M. It is still under Russian state testing as of 2020.

3. Why would India want to replace Russian A2A missiles only to order a large batch of them, and then use the R-77 seeker on the Astra?

4. RDIW.Org, reports the latest batch of Russian missiles India ordered included the R-77-1.

Explained How R-27EA /R-27ER1+RVV-SD Deadly combo will give IAF Advantage over PAF’s AMRAAM – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

No same person would ever claim the K-77M or R-77M was given to India when it is under state trials. In fact you are the only person on the Internet claiming this...contradiction

Russia Unveils Video Of Modernized Air-To-Air Missile | Aviation Week Network

A Russian military flight test center celebrated its 100th anniversary on Sept. 29 by publishing a video showing the flight of a group of four Su-57 fighters, one of which carried two R-77M medium-range air-to-air missiles that had not been seen before.

aviationweek.com

The R-77M began flight tests on Dec. 28, 2016. In February 2020, Boris Obnosov, the head of Tactical Missiles Corp., which also includes Vympel, said three new air-to-air missiles intended for the Su-57 would complete state evaluations this year.

 

[Tridev123]

Plasma stealth will need huge amounts of power to generate plasma cloud around aircraft.

I believe the F22 has active stealth.
Maybe someone can confirm it. No reports of the Chinese J20 or the Su57 having active stealth.

Designing and producing an 5th generation aircraft is a complex endeavour. At least our ADA is making a serious effort and has enough competency to develop the AMCA. We have already designed the LCA and operationalised it.

But the Pakistanis going bonkers over the so called Project AZM is a huge joke. Not even having independently designed a basic trainer aircraft how the hell can they leapfrog into 5th generation fighter design. Their so claimed aphrodisiac the J17 is of Chinese parentage.

Probably the greatest achievement of the aeronautical industry in Pakistan is putting green paint on imported aircraft and giving it fancy names.

 

[patriots]

Bdw 2 confusing report s from .....
Hemant Kumar Rout
1. Su30 fired mica over bay of Bengal

Bdw we all know Rafale fired a weapon after arrival in India .,might be a mica fired over bay of Bengal
Bdw no news Rafale fired mica


2. Su30 tested a 10 km range air to air missile
Bdw what's the need for it

So I believe he was wrong in some extent...


BHUBANESWAR: Amid a protracted stand-off along the LAC, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has accomplished a secret mission by conducting several rounds of air-to-air missiles that have recently been acquired from France and Russia from a frontline fighter aircraft off Odisha coast.

Defence sources said anti-air multi-target MICA missile fired from Sukhoi-30 MKI for the first time successfully destroyed expendable aerial targets (EATs), demonstrating its stealth capabilities. Ahead of the planned integration with multi-role combat aircraft Rafale, the IAF test fired two rounds of Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missile MICA on Monday and Tuesday

IAF test fires air-to-air missiles ahead of Rafale integration

Acquired from France, MICA is an all weather missile system available in both short and medium ranges.

www.google.com

Is not Rafale comes with mica integrated?

 

[Trololo]

1. Where is your source India was offered R-77-1 and it rejected it?

2. India was never offered or given the R-77M or K-77M. It is still under Russian state testing as of 2020.

3. Why would India want to replace Russian A2A missiles only to order a large batch of them, and then use the R-77 seeker on the Astra?

4. RDIW.Org, reports the latest batch of Russian missiles India ordered included the R-77-1.

Explained How R-27EA /R-27ER1+RVV-SD Deadly combo will give IAF Advantage over PAF’s AMRAAM – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

No same person would ever claim the K-77M or R-77M was given to India when it is under state trials. In fact you are the only person on the Internet claiming this...contradiction

Russia Unveils Video Of Modernized Air-To-Air Missile | Aviation Week Network

A Russian military flight test center celebrated its 100th anniversary on Sept. 29 by publishing a video showing the flight of a group of four Su-57 fighters, one of which carried two R-77M medium-range air-to-air missiles that had not been seen before.

aviationweek.com

IMO we are wasting time with more R-77 purchases. Astra Mk1 is good enough for now, and the Mk2 should be ready for production by Q3 of 2021. Given the scenario I believe testing will be accelerated.

 

[patriots]

IMO we are wasting time with more R-77 purchases. Astra Mk1 is good enough for now, and the Mk2 should be ready for production by Q3 of 2021. Given the scenario I believe testing will be accelerated.

Bhia you are too optimistic...astra mk2 is not even tested from ground...It might not take longer period like astra mk1 ...but I don't see it's production before 2025

 

[Trololo]

Bhia you are too optimistic...astra mk2 is not even tested from ground...It might not take longer period like astra mk1 ...but I don't see it's production before 2025

Mk2 is the dual pulse motor not the ramjet one just to clarify.

 

[BON PLAN]

Bdw 2 confusing report s from .....
Hemant Kumar Rout
1. Su30 fired mica over bay of Bengal

Bdw we all know Rafale fired a weapon after arrival in India .,might be a mica fired over bay of Bengal
Bdw no news Rafale fired mica


2. Su30 tested a 10 km range air to air missile
Bdw what's the need for it

So I believe he was wrong in some extent...


BHUBANESWAR: Amid a protracted stand-off along the LAC, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has accomplished a secret mission by conducting several rounds of air-to-air missiles that have recently been acquired from France and Russia from a frontline fighter aircraft off Odisha coast.

Defence sources said anti-air multi-target MICA missile fired from Sukhoi-30 MKI for the first time successfully destroyed expendable aerial targets (EATs), demonstrating its stealth capabilities. Ahead of the planned integration with multi-role combat aircraft Rafale, the IAF test fired two rounds of Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missile MICA on Monday and Tuesday

IAF test fires air-to-air missiles ahead of Rafale integration

Acquired from France, MICA is an all weather missile system available in both short and medium ranges.

www.google.com

Is not Rafale comes with mica integrated?

1) MICA is not a new missile in the Indian arsenal. Already integrated with M2000-5
2) Rafale is of course integrated with MICA, for nearly 20 years in the EM model (IR one more recently).
3) No evidence MICA is integrated on SU30. I have a great doubt.

 

[porky_kicker]

Bhia you are too optimistic...astra mk2 is not even tested from ground...It might not take longer period like astra mk1 ...but I don't see it's production before 2025

Imo Astra mk2 will enter production much earlier , once it's test flight starts.

Much of the technology has already been proven in Astra mk1 and dual pulse technology is also validated.

Akash ng and Astra mk2 will share commonality to a considerable degree imo.

 

[patriots]

Imo Astra mk2 will enter production much earlier , once it's test flight starts.

Much of the technology has already been proven in Astra mk1 and dual pulse technology is also validated.

Akash ng and Astra mk2 will share commonality to a considerable degree imo.

Bhai I believe sfdr will be flight tested much before astra mk2....
Ya it's true that dual pulse is validated in ngarm