Sukhoi PAK FA

[blackjack]

unpopular opinion - su57 is the best looking 5th gen (not the best in capabilities)

what exactly is the best 5th gen?

 

[Blademaster]

what exactly is the best 5th gen?

you seriously asking that question? Obviously it’s f-22

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

what exactly is the best 5th gen?

F22 the undisputed 5th gen

 

[blackjack]

F22 the undisputed 5th gen

2007 avionics, only thing undisputed was shooting down balloons. I think the F-35 will not see combat either looking at the accident or I mean F-35 thread.

 

[DumbPilot]

2007 avionics, only thing undisputed was shooting down balloons. I think the F-35 will not see combat either looking at the accident or I mean F-35 thread.

the su-57 can't even enter production(nor do they use the prototype models with the impunity of an actual 5th gen fighter in ukraine)

 

[blackjack]

the su-57 can't even enter production(nor do they use the prototype models with the impunity of an actual 5th gen fighter in ukraine)

they already have like 22 or 24 with 12 more by the end of this year, So i guess that means production. no new radars, no new EW systems for F-22 I guess it makes sense to leave them rusting and go after the NGAD project instead. Though I never think its a good idea to be the country that is 1st to make new gen aircrafts since others might observe their capabilities earlier and decide to make their own gen later to counter them.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

the su-57 can't even enter production(nor do they use the prototype models with the impunity of an actual 5th gen fighter in ukraine)

name another fighter which has 232kn dry power in a single unit , can supercruise at 1.8 mach i bet you cant electronically it not to the level of f35 but on the hardware side its still undisputed ,rcs is even lower than f35 and it has all the goodies too radar can detect 1m^2 target at 200km ,thrustvectoring , supermanuvering etc
i know it would probably be gone before seeing combat but it isnt that bad as you portray it

 

[Satish Sharma]

they already have like 22 or 24 with 12 more by the end of this year, So i guess that means production. no new radars, no new EW systems for F-22 I guess it makes sense to leave them rusting and go after the NGAD project instead. Though I never think its a good idea to be the country that is 1st to make new gen aircrafts since others might observe their capabilities earlier and decide to make their own gen later to counter them.

They were thinking of upgrading it but it's total cost turned out to be 12 billions dollars
Murica

 

[Satish Sharma]

QUOTE="Smoothbore125mm, post: 2687894, member: 53775"]
name another fighter which has 232kn dry power in a single unit , can supercruise at 1.8 mach i bet you cant electronically it not to the level of f35 b
ut on the hardware side its still undisputed ,rcs is even lower than f35 and it has all the goodies too radar can detect 1m^2 target at 200km ,thrustvectoring , supermanuvering etc
i know it would probably be gone before seeing combat but it isnt that bad as you portray it

the su-57 can't even enter production(nor do they use the prototype models with the impunity of an actual 5th gen fighter in ukraine

Guys don't fight
We are getting neither one but anyways
When it comes to to stealth f22 is said to be more stealthier. Can super cruise has radar range longer than f35 simply because 2 powerful engine. Humangous power output

F35 is ahead of f22 in terms of passive tracking. And EW it will get whooping 20 RWRs usual aircraft have 5.
Its radar is capable of electronic attack it can
Sto functioning of any radar.
It's 20 rwr are capable of electronic spying like a dedicated istar platform. Atleast better than any platform available..
It can detect most of the radars of wide type of frequency..
It is best platform for sead & dead..[/QUOTE]

 

[DumbPilot]

name another fighter which has 232kn dry power in a single unit , can supercruise at 1.8 mach i bet you cant electronically it not to the level of f35 but on the hardware side its still undisputed ,rcs is even lower than f35 and it has all the goodies too radar can detect 1m^2 target at 200km ,thrustvectoring , supermanuvering etc
i know it would probably be gone before seeing combat but it isnt that bad as you portray it

It would be a good dogfighter, but even Leandro Lo, who was eight time jiujitsu champion, was shot in the head with a gun.

My point is that maneuverability and engines are only a subset of the requirement of being 5th generation. Electronics, operability, future-proofing, support, etc. all contribute towards it.

It is also why I think that the F-35 is much more successful as a 5th gen aircraft than a Raptor, despite the Raptor being a better air superiority fighter(although in only the dogfighting sense. both aircraft can use missiles, are stealthy and have freaking powerful radars)


We have never seen the Su-57 come even close to this. Forget the Su-57, even the regular RuAF units are not equipped properly -- those who frequent the Russia-Ukraine war and watch Fighterbomber's videos know that half of the frontline equipment are straight from the cold war days which have no modernization. The other half's electronics are crap and therefore use things like commercial Garmin units to get their GPS and fixes -- there have been videos where even Su-34s(one of the most modern RuAF fighters!) were using civilian Garmin equipment.

They literally blur the Garmin out in this Su-25 video.

If things are like this on the frontline, why do you think that things back home have any more value than this?

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

It would be a good dogfighter, but even Leandro Lo, who was eight time jiujitsu champion, was shot in the head with a gun.

My point is that maneuverability and engines are only a subset of the requirement of being 5th generation. Electronics, operability, future-proofing, support, etc. all contribute towards it.

It is also why I think that the F-35 is much more successful as a 5th gen aircraft than a Raptor, despite the Raptor being a better air superiority fighter(although in only the dogfighting sense. both aircraft can use missiles, are stealthy and have freaking powerful radars)


We have never seen the Su-57 come even close to this. Forget the Su-57, even the regular RuAF units are not equipped properly -- those who frequent the Russia-Ukraine war and watch Fighterbomber's videos know that half of the frontline equipment are straight from the cold war days which have no modernization. The other half's electronics are crap and therefore use things like commercial Garmin units to get their GPS and fixes -- there have been videos where even Su-34s(one of the most modern RuAF fighters!) were using civilian Garmin equipment.

View attachment 245031

They literally blur the Garmin out in this Su-25 video.

If things are like this on the frontline, why do you think that things back home have any more value than this?

the primary mission of f22 is air superiority and sead type missions and it does that better than any aircraft but its not upgraded due to enormous amount of upg cost thus its way behind f35 electronically my point was people shitting on it like crazy is wrong too
ps its the only fighter that could destroy us economy with the enemy too

 

[blackjack]

It is also why I think that the F-35 is much more successful as a 5th gen aircraft than a Raptor, despite the Raptor being a better air superiority fighter(although in only the dogfighting sense. both aircraft can use missiles, are stealthy and have freaking powerful radars)

The F-35 has a low ass flight ceiling with a good chance it will be shining bright on radar if the radars are getting some waves bouncing off from the top of it.

We have never seen the Su-57 come even close to this. Forget the Su-57, even the regular RuAF units are not equipped properly -- those who frequent the Russia-Ukraine war and watch Fighterbomber's videos know that half of the frontline equipment are straight from the cold war days which have no modernization. The other half's electronics are crap and therefore use things like commercial Garmin units to get their GPS and fixes -- there have been videos where even Su-34s(one of the most modern RuAF fighters!) were using civilian Garmin equipment.

Stupid argument with no backing as usual, Ukrainians claimed 12 su-34s in two weeks while showing a burning grass field as a claim that a Su-34 was shot down and no visuals for the other 11. There is visual evidence lately of patriots, HIMARs and western tanks getting destroyed like crazy, while FABs are getting dropped more than usual and no war campaign will be as big as this one for any NATO country in any conflict.

I heard France has like 315 Mirages and 234 Rafales maybe they can prove themselves as being mercenary pilots flying those aircrafts in the Ukraine war if they want. France (along with the other non-US Nato countries) ran out of munitions within like 10 days of their intervention in Libya back in 2011, and they haven't made any meaningful investment into munitions stockpiles in the interim, so its kind of a moot point. They can build Rafales all they want, but it means shit if they can't arm them.

who are you even trying to discredit here?

 

[Blademaster]

The F-35 has a low ass flight ceiling with a good chance it will be shining bright on radar if the radars are getting some waves bouncing off from the top of it.


Stupid argument with no backing as usual, Ukrainians claimed 12 su-34s in two weeks while showing a burning grass field as a claim that a Su-34 was shot down and no visuals for the other 11. There is visual evidence lately of patriots, HIMARs and western tanks getting destroyed like crazy, while FABs are getting dropped more than usual and no war campaign will be as big as this one for any NATO country in any conflict.

I heard France has like 315 Mirages and 234 Rafales maybe they can prove themselves as being mercenary pilots flying those aircrafts in the Ukraine war if they want. France (along with the other non-US Nato countries) ran out of munitions within like 10 days of their intervention in Libya back in 2011, and they haven't made any meaningful investment into munitions stockpiles in the interim, so its kind of a moot point. They can build Rafales all they want, but it means shit if they can't arm them.

who are you even trying to discredit here?

French Air Force only has 100 Rafales and 73 Mirage 2000s in its inventory.

 

[Super Flanker]

unpopular opinion - su57 is the best looking 5th gen (not the best in capabilities)

I think most will agree that the Su-57 is the best looking fifth generation aircraft, though as far as stealth characteristics and Technology is concerned, it's still not on par with other contemporary fifth generation fighters such as the J-20, F-22, F-35.

The Su-57 has the largest RCS of all fifth generation aircrafts in service, larger than even the J-20. Su-57 is a very good example of design compromise.

You see most stealth aircrafts are designed as to divert the radar waves away from the source, as a result to achieve a very high degree of stealth, once needs an airframe that is highly optimised for the same. But such airframes have a compromise, they aren't the most maneuverable. The F-22 is quite maneuverable courtesy it's thrust vectoring nozzles though.

The Su-57 is the most maneuverable of all fifth generation stealth aircraft thanks to its all axis TVC, and the surface control such as flaps, ailerons etc are optimised for the same but as a result of being a very maneuverable plane, the Su-57's airframe makes it less stealthy, this does not mean that it isn't stealth.

The Russians didn't want the Su-57 to have the degree of stealth to the level of their American rivals, they made the Su-57 have decent stealth characteristics, and highly maneuverable, and it would operate from within the comfort of Russian air defence coverage from stand off ranges most of the times + Act as a BVR sniper from long ranges against inferior fourth generation fighters. Now the Su-57 in the near future is being expected to have flat nozzles such as those seen in the F-22.

 

[blackjack]

I think most will agree that the Su-57 is the best looking fifth generation aircraft, though as far as stealth characteristics and Technology is concerned, it's still not on par with other contemporary fifth generation fighters such as the J-20, F-22, F-35.

The Su-57 has the largest RCS of all fifth generation aircrafts in service, larger than even the J-20. Su-57 is a very good example of design compromise.

You see most stealth aircrafts are designed as to divert the radar waves away from the source, as a result to achieve a very high degree of stealth, once needs an airframe that is highly optimised for the same. But such airframes have a compromise, they aren't the most maneuverable. The F-22 is quite maneuverable courtesy it's thrust vectoring nozzles though.

The Su-57 is the most maneuverable of all fifth generation stealth aircraft thanks to its all axis TVC, and the surface control such as flaps, ailerons etc are optimised for the same but as a result of being a very maneuverable plane, the Su-57's airframe makes it less stealthy, this does not mean that it isn't stealth.

The Russians didn't want the Su-57 to have the degree of stealth to the level of their American rivals, they made the Su-57 have decent stealth characteristics, and highly maneuverable, and it would operate from within the comfort of Russian air defence coverage from stand off ranges most of the times + Act as a BVR sniper from long ranges against inferior fourth generation fighters. Now the Su-57 in the near future is being expected to have flat nozzles such as those seen in the F-22.

I dont think you seem to understand what you are talking about.
they got did not want square nozzles because it killed performance of the aircraft that they didn't want. They had square nozzles designs back in the 80s.

So instead, they went for the Serrated round nozzle design similar to the F-35

The only reason they went back to the square nozzle design is that they found a way to keep the stealth with the same thrust vectoring capabilities they had prior.

 

[Super Flanker]

I dont think you seem to understand what you are talking about.
they got did not want square nozzles because it killed performance of the aircraft that they didn't want. They had square nozzles designs back in the 80s.

So instead, they went for the Serrated round nozzle design similar to the F-35

Read my previous post again, I was speaking about design compromise, which ofcourse the Russians did when they were developing and testing the Su-57, taking into account their economy and doctrine.

Now what do I mean to say about design compromise?
Simple as this, read carefully: The Su-57's airframe has a higher RCS than the F-22 or the F-35, but it is more maneuverable than either of them. Why? Because of its already present thrust vectoring nozzles, I am not talking about the upcoming flat nozzle engines which will be added to the Su-57 in the future. The F-22 has TVC but it's field of movement is slightly restricted in comparison to the Su-57's TVC. And the Su-57 is also again very maneuverable due to the design of its control surfaces. The design team at the Sukhoi bureau has refined the control surfaces of the Su-57 as much as possible so as to make it as stealthy and maneuverable at the same time but the design of the control surfaces on the F-22, F-35, though they won't allow the pilot to perform acrobatics to the level of Su-57 will still give less radar return.

In short if you still didn't understand what I am trying to say then read this: Can you tell me if it's possible for Russia to make the Su-57 as Stealthy as an F-35 or F-22 both in IR and visual regime, and as maneuverable as it is now? You will understand me then only.

And yes I know the Russians tested Flat engine nozzles many years ago, they decided that they wouldn't want it because flat engine nozzles, though reduced the IR and other signature of the aircraft, it reduced the overall engine thrust substantially, which was a trade off the Russians didn't want.

The only reason they went back to the square nozzle design is that they found a way to keep the stealth with the same thrust vectoring capabilities they had prior.

Yes I know about this. By the way, the new flat engine nozzles for the Su-57 will be in 2D axis like on the ones in the F-22? I kinda wished that the world somehow figured out how to make flat engine nozzles in 3D axis. Maybe we can? Maybe the Nozzle rotate 360 decrease and tilt in 2D axis collectively making it 3D axis. What you say. Let me see if I can make a model of such an idea.

 

[blackjack]

it reduced the overall engine thrust substantially, which was a trade off the Russians didn't want.

and such a performance parameter matter.
If the Su-57 has more thrust capabilities (besides bumping that up to 2nd stage engine)
The F-22 and F-35 will still give a huge RCS reflection to the Su-57 if the Su-57 radar beam reflects off of this

instead of this.

More movement allows better aerodynamic placement for the aircraft radar to be positioned in a way facing the adversary aircraft to receive a high RCS return than a smaller one of just facing the front face of the aircraft. Engine and aircraft performance is the most important necessity followed by stealth being secondary, there is also a reason why Russia wants to go for the Mig-41 project to trade off the stealth more for a more aerodynamic design to fly faster and at 100km altitudes, working on detonation engines. Anyone saying maneuverability is useless in BVR is complete BS because it would make a large difference if the Su-57 was getting a RCS reading from the side of the F-22 than the F-22 getting a reading from the front of the Su-57.

You dont seem to be taking a side on what is a bigger compromise, more thrust better maneuverability with stealth or a stealthier design with lesser maneuverability and lesser thrust. Front of aircraft most stealth, back second place, sides 3rd place, bottom side 4th place, topside last place, this is a highly important rule to remember to understand what I am saying.

F-22 gets 1m2 at 200km or 240km depending on sources with 120 degree radar beam and 1m2 at 400kms with 2 degree beam, in passive mode it is claimed at 460kms.

The export Su-57 with original 2009 radar was 1m2 at 200kms, radar got upgraded in 2018 or 2019 and for all we know in 2025 the newer avionics could be newer AESA modules again or a photonic radar, and the Rostec 2014 book claimed the modules for Himalayas were GaN. With the amount of radar modules in the back, sides and front the Su-57, the passive detection will probably be way greater than 460kms.

I am sure you can fly your aircraft to do zig zags to throw off passive detection accuracy, but you need to know if you got passively tracked 1st which is highly difficult to do if the aircraft decides to turn off its radar at a greater distance than 460kms. And doing such maneuvers randomly will reflect the side of your aircraft allowing the adversary aircraft to receive a higher RCS return from you on radar.

If there is an uncontested airspace and each aircraft is flying directly at each other at mach 2 speeds 73 seconds would pass for each 100kms. Both use wide 120 degree radar beams which at the best case would give the radar a 200km range for 1m2, think it would be too risky shooting in the dark with a 2-degree radar beam hoping you hit the jackpot at 400kms. The thing is the Su-57 will get the 1st initiative to know there is a unidentified aircraft, where its at and what direction it is heading. from 460km to 200km alot of things can happen at 190 seconds(more than likely more since the Su-57 is assumed to be smaller than 1m2 and its receiver range is more than likely better than 460kms) instead of the Su-57 flying directly at the F-22 it can fly roundabout along with positioning itself with nice maneuverability to face the F-22 in its more compromising angle. With the time passed and consideration of where the F-22 is heading the Su-57 can turn its radar back on and fire a super-fast air to air missile at it.

Since the flat nozzle kills thrust for F-22 and the F-35 has a more limited flight ceiling the Su-57 will still receive higher RCS reflection from both because of engine performance and because the bottom side of stealth aircrafts is treated more physically than the topside of aircrafts.

 

[blackjack]

Also combat range of how long you stay in the airspace is important as well.
The combat range of the F-22 is 600 nm or 1111kms without drop tanks at 850kms.

https://naukatehnika.com/izdelie-30...estvennoe-foto.html?ysclid=lueq95ui9p22873394 The Fuel consumption of the 2nd stage engine is to that of the AL 31F which is basically that of the Su-27.

https://masterok.livejournal.com/267227.html?ysclid=lufzfuj9ed528138241
This distribution of tasks was based on a significant difference in flight range and maximum weight of the combat load: Su-27 - flight range 4000 km without refueling, payload weight 8000 kg; The MiG-29 has a flight range of 1,500 km, a payload weight of 4,000 kg, which meant that the Su-27 aircraft has a combat range of 1,600 km, that is, it can conduct air battles near the coast of the Atlantic Ocean, performing the functions of an "air raider" I think the combat range could be somewhere between 1650km-1800km(su-57 weights 1,700kg more but it has 900kg of extra fuel) they can bump up the range with fuel tanks but I dont think that is needed. The 2nd stage is not high or low bypass but a variable engine with both advantages.

Also lesser flight range offers a lesser time with a more limited range on how far you will go. Poland is like 590kms wide and Ukraine is like 1316kms wide. It would be a funny idea placing them in Lviv and they will have enough range to fly to Donetsk and back. If the F-22 turns around after intercepting some 4th gens Russia can send 4th gens to chase the F-22s rear with missiles and the aircrafts can't waste fuel to turn around or they won't make it back to their airfield. Having airfields closer to enemy forces is always a bad idea in general since they can be targeted.

You can place the Su-57s to the most far western border of Poland and they can maintain a stealth profile throughout their entire flight to get to Donetsk. They can even use fuel tanks if they want to go a little farther. thus longer range missiles are needed to target their airfields offering more of a response time to air defenses to try to protect the runways. MRBMs will have a higher trajectory for easier interception trying to hit the S-57 runway than SRBMs that can hit the F-22 runway. the F-22 runway could be targets for zircons and not the Su-57 runway. cruise missiles can work for either but having medium short or long range air defenses at anywhere between a 1650km-1800km distance with EW offers less of a chance of success than 850 - 1111kms

Sure 3 stream cycle engines can help the F-35s range, but Russia is also developing them. and the funny part is the Su-75 might have the possibility of getting a 3 stream cycle engine can also the drone version removing the cockpit (according to their patent) will extend the range of it even farther.

 

[StealthFlanker]

The F-35 has a low ass flight ceiling with a good chance it will be shining bright on radar if the radars are getting some waves bouncing off from the top of it.

it is actually, much harder to find a target at lower altitude, since the radar need to pick out target from ground clutter. A target at lower altitude can always hide their return better due to higher noise floor
Furthermore, even with IRST or EO sensor picking out target from sky background is always easier than surface background, because ground surface is hotter and less uniform

 

[StealthFlanker]

and such a performance parameter matter.
If the Su-57 has more thrust capabilities (besides bumping that up to 2nd stage engine)
The F-22 and F-35 will still give a huge RCS reflection to the Su-57 if the Su-57 radar beam reflects off of this
View attachment 246519
instead of this.
View attachment 246520

If we are being completely honest, the different in altitude make up a very small different in angle.
For example:
let say: F-35 cruising at altitude of 40,000 ft (12.2 km) while Su-57 cruise at 60,000 ft (18.2 km)
18.2-12.2 = 6 km in height.
Using very simple trigonometry, you can see that with 6 km in height
If the 2 aircraft are 400 km apart from each other, the look down angle from Su-57 is 0.85 degree
If the 2 aircraft are 300 km apart from each other, the look down angle from Su-57 is 1.15 degree
If the 2 aircraft are 200 km apart from each other, the look down angle from Su-57 is 1.72 degree
If the 2 aircraft are 100 km apart from each other, the look down angle from Su-57 is 3.4 degree
In other words, the different is very negligible to the point that it hardly matter at all, unless, we are at super close distance, like 30-40 km.
Besides, in case Su-57 looking at F-22/35 from top down, then these fighter will be tracking Su-57 from belly up, which is not exactly clean either. Not to mention that the aircraft at lower altitude will enjoy the high clutter background

there is also a reason why Russia wants to go for the Mig-41 project to trade off the stealth more for a more aerodynamic design to fly faster and at 100km altitudes, working on detonation engines.

How many Mig-41 currently in production?: Zero
How many Mig-41 prototype currently being tested? Zero
There are as many Mig-41 now as there are SR-72
paper projects doesn't mean anything even if producer claim it will fly at 100 times faster than sound.

Anyone saying maneuverability is useless in BVR is complete BS because it would make a large difference if the Su-57 was getting a RCS reading from the side of the F-22 than the F-22 getting a reading from the front of the Su-57.
You dont seem to be taking a side on what is a bigger compromise, more thrust better maneuverability with stealth or a stealthier design with lesser maneuverability and lesser thrust. Front of aircraft most stealth, back second place, sides 3rd place, bottom side 4th place, topside last place, this is a highly important rule to remember to understand what I am saying
F-22 gets 1m2 at 200km or 240km depending on sources with 120 degree radar beam and 1m2 at 400kms with 2 degree beam, in passive mode it is claimed at 460kms.

The export Su-57 with original 2009 radar was 1m2 at 200kms, radar got upgraded in 2018 or 2019 and for all we know in 2025 the newer avionics could be newer AESA modules again or a photonic radar, and the Rostec 2014 book claimed the modules for Himalayas were GaN. With the amount of radar modules in the back, sides and front the Su-57, the passive detection will probably be way greater than 460kms.

I am sure you can fly your aircraft to do zig zags to throw off passive detection accuracy, but you need to know if you got passively tracked 1st which is highly difficult to do if the aircraft decides to turn off its radar at a greater distance than 460kms. And doing such maneuvers randomly will reflect the side of your aircraft allowing the adversary aircraft to receive a higher RCS return from you on radar.
If there is an uncontested airspace and each aircraft is flying directly at each other at mach 2 speeds 73 seconds would pass for each 100kms. Both use wide 120 degree radar beams which at the best case would give the radar a 200km range for 1m2, think it would be too risky shooting in the dark with a 2-degree radar beam hoping you hit the jackpot at 400kms. The thing is the Su-57 will get the 1st initiative to know there is a unidentified aircraft, where its at and what direction it is heading. from 460km to 200km alot of things can happen at 190 seconds(more than likely more since the Su-57 is assumed to be smaller than 1m2 and its receiver range is more than likely better than 460kms) instead of the Su-57 flying directly at the F-22 it can fly roundabout along with positioning itself with nice maneuverability to face the F-22 in its more compromising angle. With the time passed and consideration of where the F-22 is heading the Su-57 can turn its radar back on and fire a super-fast air to air missile at it.

Since the flat nozzle kills thrust for F-22 and the F-35 has a more limited flight ceiling the Su-57 will still receive higher RCS reflection from both because of engine performance and because the bottom side of stealth aircrafts is treated more physically than the topside of aircrafts.

I don't quite understand your proposal?. So somehow Su-57 can just circle around the F-35/F-22 ground at Mach 2, yet invisible to IRST sensor?. What make you think Su-57 will get the 1st initiative to know where F-22/F-35 is?