Small arms of India

vampyrbladez

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Why doesn't Ghatak have full rails & adjustable stock "from Day 1"? ...did the army not bother to ask for those?

Its performance was superior to Galil apparently.
On the quality & workmanship issues, why can't OFB do some outsourcing, Iike HAL does for the only fighter jet that has never crashed?
Question:
Is this 7.65×51 at full auto? Mag looks too straight & muzzle brake looks too big...
Nazar mat laga BSDK. Is desh me kuch accha hone wala hota hai to 100 chutiye aakar usme loda ghusate hai!
 

Enquirer

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Why doesn't Ghatak have full rails & adjustable stock "from Day 1"? ...did the army not bother to ask for those?

Its performance was superior to Galil apparently.
On the quality & workmanship issues, why can't OFB do some outsourcing, Iike HAL does for the only fighter jet that has never crashed?
Question:
Is this 7.65×51 at full auto? Mag looks too straight & muzzle brake looks too big...
The rifle in the video is an INSAS variant - I think it's Excalibur!
 

Bleh

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Nazar mat laga BSDK. Is desh me kuch accha hone wala hota hai to 100 chutiye aakar usme loda ghusate hai!
The Sig 7.62×51 deal is definitely a catch, i'm not complaining or "loda ghusa"ing. (And militaries don't have "Nazar lagana" battalions for a good reason, so don't worry!)

But my point was different. HAL, DRDO are changing for better.
OFB should too, & if this news was true then it's halfway done...
 
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Enquirer

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On the quality & workmanship issues, why can't OFB do some outsourcing, Iike HAL does for the only fighter jet that has never crashed?
There's not much to outsource in the manufacture of a rifle (other than maybe the butt stock!).
If you get all parts from outside what will OFB do? Even a trainee soldier can assemble the rifle from parts :)
 

vampyrbladez

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The Sig 7.62×51 deal is definitely a catch, i'm not complaining or "loda ghusa"ing. (And militaries don't have "Nazar lagana" battalions for a good reason, so don't worry!)

But my point was different. HAL, DRDO are changing for better.
OFB should too, & if this news was true then it's halfway done...
Less said about HAL, the better. My only hope is that this govt. remains, another 5 years and we will have a semi decent MiC. Else this shit returns :

 

Bleh

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There's not much to outsource in the manufacture of a rifle (other than maybe the butt stock!).
If you get all parts from outside what will OFB do? Even a trainee soldier can assemble the rifle from parts :)
Concentrate on the barrel, firing mechanism & other metal parts maybe... rope in private companies to improve the metallurgy. If their 7.62×51 did outperform Galil then that's where to prioritise.

The guards, grips, stocks, sights, covers etc. plastic components can be outsourced. Stuff whose absence people complain about;
FAB-Defense-ak47-carbine-upgrade-kit-tan-stamped-ptk.jpg


Less said about HAL, the better.
When did i d say HAL/DRDO are perfect? That's mad!
But they're trying... & making progress. ISRO is the limit!

Aero India was impressive & HAL's own Tejas never crashed! (Although that may be due to "carefree handling" of Tejas more that is reliability, given 45% of IAF crashes are pilot errors, i don't know.)
 

Enquirer

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Concentrate on the barrel, firing mechanism & other metal parts maybe... rope in private companies to improve the metallurgy. If their 7.62×51 did outperform Galil then that's where to prioritise.

The guards, grips, stocks, sights, covers etc. plastic components can be outsourced. Stuff whose absence people complain about;
But none of these make or break a rifle! A rifles most essential stuff picking the right alloy, forging the barrel right and getting the mechanics correct!

As I said earlier, the outer housing can be outsourced - but that's hardly where the problems ever lie!! Even if they do, its easily fixable!
 

Gessler

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The price quoted by OFB officials was for a single rifle. The same price for SIG was much higher. Because of assured bulk orders SIG could offer lower prices. OFB could do the same and the OFB rifles would be much cheaper than SIG.
There's no such thing as a 'single rifle price' in OFB. This is not a retail product. Rs. 80k per IS the price of bulk order - as it's clear the GM is comparing that price to the deal price of the Fast Track deal value. But unfortunately, he forgets to state that the 700 crore includes accessories, support contracts, armorer training etc.

Apparently, he believes (or wants us to believe) that stuff like magazines, grips, etc. from OFB come free of cost. They don't.

There is a huge difference in rifles used by national armies and what an individual buys for personal use. Top tier countries (members of security council) all use rifles built in the country. Second tier countries fight with foreign rifles.
Top tier countries use good rifles, if the domestically made options are not up to mark, they're not shy for importing. That's why French Army buys HK416 from Germany to replace their home-made FAMAS as standard issue. That's why when Royal Ordnance Factories made a piss-poor rifle in the original SA-80/L85, the UK wasn't shy for asking the Germans to come and redesign their rifle, the result being the much-improved SA-80A2.

That's why US Marines buy German-origin M27 IAR (based on HK416) in large numbers. That's why pretty much all American Special Forces use German & Belgian guns in large numbers (HK416 and SCAR-H).

If industrialized first-world countries (and yes, security council permanent members) are not shy for buying foreign guns, what's our issue?

Why doesn't Ghatak have full rails & adjustable stock "from Day 1"? ...did the army not bother to ask for those?


As far as I know, the Ghaatak was not developed against any Army GSQR, it was an Ishapore pet project, which they later pitched to various services.

Even if not, the Army's requirements are always changing. Plus, it's not up to Army officers to stay ahead of the firearms technology curve - that's upto the industry to figure out and implement, so they can ahead of potential emerging requirements.

Do you ask your car maker to implement ABS, or does the maker implement it and tell you it's uses?

Did SIG wait for Army to issue requirement for full-length P-rails before implementing them on their guns?

Its performance was superior to Galil apparently.
Yeah, yeah. Pre-production Range test examples. Even the INSAS is good there.

It's once you move to large scale batch orders, that QC falls drastically.

:
Is this 7.65×51 at full auto? Mag looks too straight & muzzle brake looks too big...
That's the INSAS-1C. Magazine has a slight curve, definitely not 7.62x51. Besides, no one can handle 7.62 Nato full auto being that steady.

The point is every great nation and army uses their own guns - not all of them are cheapest and best because by definition there is only one "best".
Also, guns sourced from the country keep the money in the country and circulates that in our economy. This does not apply for foreign guns and should be considered as a part of costing.
So that justifies buying a Tata Nano for 25 lakhs? Sending capital expenditure down the drain, and all for a pretty mediocre rifle (INSAS), with no modern features?

Then why do they cost more in OFB? Old machinery?
Why do they cost more? Simple - OFB is not forced to enter a competitive bidding process unlike these foreign guns.

If R2 has to compete with these guns in competitive bidding, then even OFB will be forced to offer lower quotes. It's only because guns like INSAS had to be bought from OFB with the Army having no other choice (as I said, a CAPTIVE MARKET), that OFB is able to demand $770 per gun for INSAS, or $1120 for R2.

...all the while US Army buys the much more advanced & reliable M4A1 for only $640 per piece.

If the INSAS is pitted today against other modern 5.56 rifles (AR-15s) in a competitive bidding, there is no way in HELL the Ordnance Factories can demand $770 quote.
 

Maddy_9UY

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Same applies to SIG or any foreign gun.

The SIG 716G2 retails for over $2,100 MSRP in the US civilian market. For a bulk order of 72,400 rifles, they could bring it down to $990 per gun.

For the same order, OFB is asking for over $1100.

But it doesn't matter, because we know that you won't be getting a gun that is WORTH 1100 dollars. A well-proven, tried and tested design like AR-10 platform can be assembled by buying individual parts for less than 700 dollars in civilian market.

For the kind of Quality Assurance & Quality-Control you get from OFB, their offer does not make any sense unless their price is below 500 dollars.

You can buy an AR-10 from Palmetto State Armory (PSA) for 600 bucks, and PSA's quality is easily superior. Not to mention higher labour costs and material costs in US, and the fact that PSA is a small private company.

And that 600 $ is for retail market. If you place bulk orders of several thousand, they can possibly offer for less than $400.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-10/pa-10-complete-rifles.html

In comparison OFB is a huuuuge board. All the resources it has, cheap labour, lackluster QA/QC, a lot of cutting corners...and they want to tell us they'll take 1100+ dollars for a poorly-made AK conversion to 7.62x51mm?

They can keep it.

The R2 rifle is trash...if not because of its performance or quality (I'm not in a position to comment on that, I can only talk about Ordnance Factories in general), then simply because of how much they are asking for it. Total hogwash and rip-off.

@binayak95 @rkhanna @mohitbhagat Does anyone have prices for current production batches of INSAS rifles? As far as I know, it used to be some Rs. 25k (not sure if later batches or earlier production), or about $350, which is pretty reasonable for a 5.56 rifle of okayish quality. The US Army buys their Remington & FN-made M4A1s (which are of superb quality & reliability) for about $650.

If that 25k figure is right, then I don't know what is making OFB think they can demand 80k for R2 rifle. I wonder if they took a look at the quoted prices in the FTP bid and figured they can demand similar prices and force Army to buy it...all because they learnt how to anodize the frame in 20 years :pound:
In last Defense Expo OFB representative has said that new versions of INSAS would be milled instead of stamped. That could explain the price increase.
 

Gessler

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Why was products with QC issues not returned back in the first place?
Many guns keep getting returned, but overall quality control remains mediocre at best.

You don't get FN level of quality on a company like ATI. Simple as that. And that reflects on the price they ask for it.

Unfortunately, like I said, OFB is allowed to demand whatever price they want - and technically, it is not breaking the law, because we never made them enter competitive bidding in the first place.

Hope Army/MoD learnt their lesson and never ever give away contracts to OFB products without a competitive bidding.

@binayak95 your experience is with the 20-years-old model, right? Anything on how the Mark 1C compares to it? Is it even being used?
Had a cousin pass out of IMA couple months ago, had experience on range with the 1B INSAS (black furniture). It was pretty common for there to be at least 1 stoppage per magazine, at least half the time.

Not first hand experience, take it for what it's worth.
 

Maddy_9UY

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Why was products with QC issues not returned back in the first place?

@binayak95 your experience is with the 20-years-old model, right? Anything on how the Mark 1C compares to it? Is it even being used?
Sorry to go off topic, but i did notice the poster behind INSAS. Isn't it an AK-103? However the poster says "Ghaatak"?
 

Gessler

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Sorry to go off topic, but i did notice the poster behind INSAS. Isn't it an AK-103? However the poster says "Ghaatak"?
It's actually the AK-74M in 5.45x39mm -



The 103 or any AK in 7.62x39 would have a more curved magazine -



Whoever made that poster must have downloaded a generic Kalashnikov pic from Google.
 

aarav

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Big boost for Army’s infantry troops as India signs deal with Russian firm for 750,000 units of AK–203 rifle Published March 3, 2019 | By admin SOURCE: TIMES NOW AK–203 is the latest derivative of the legendary AK-47 rifle. India has signed a deal with a Russian firm to manufacture 750,000 of these assault rifles which would be given to the Army’s infantry troops. According to officials, the guns would replace the existing India-made INSAS assault rifles in the Army, Air Force and Navy. After the rifles are supplied to the defence forces, the government, in the next phase, would provide them to paramilitary and the state police forces. There is a possibility that 15 to 20 years down the line, all the forces would be using this assault rifle as their standard weapon.Apart from this, the Defence Ministry has already signed a contract with American Sig Sauer for the supply of 7.69mm 59 calibre advanced assault rifles. These would be given to soldiers directly engaged in counter-insurgency and other operations. The idea behind having two different assault rifles is that the troops who are engaged regularly in combat with terrorist or Pakistan Army on the Line of Control should have very advanced weapons while the others can also have an advanced rifle which is lighter and can meet all the requirements. After a string of complaints on INSAS rifles was received from ground troops deployed across the country on all frontiers, India about 10 years ago had started looking for new rifles for its infantry troops but the efforts could not materialise due to retraction of tenders issued for the purpose over different issues.
ak203.jpg

Caliber



AK-203: 7.62х39

Action

Gas operated, rotary bolt locking

Length, mm

880-940
705 (stock folded)


Barrel length, mm

415



Weight with empty magazine, kg

4,1


Rate of fire, rounds/minute

600



Magazine capacity, rounds

30
 

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