Small arms of India

[harsh]

Aha Mr. Biswas is back..first of all where is the authentic proof to back the existence of a Sub-4KG (9 Pound) 5.56 INSAS Standard rifle as you had claimed? Still looking eh?
Do not digress...haha

Yes i did hear about the Good Brigadier, and may his soul RIP, but just as you can`t be the final word in a Million man+ Army and four million+ overall Armed Forces, with all due respect neither can be he.

And you quote me the EX-COAS and present minister, what do you expect him to do? trash the service the service arm? Are you this naive? Or think of us to be.

No Army or govt. worth its salt would ever accept the shortcomings of an already deployed firearm, they'd quietly try to fix it or get it replaced, as they've been trying to do over the past years.

As the govt response on the PIL also stated, which you would obviously ignore:

"The Centre's response came on PIL, filed by Lt Col (retd) Deepak Malhotra who has alleged that because of "bureaucratic red tape" soldiers are made to use "clearly inferior weapon" at the "risk of losing their lives". The Centre also informed the court that the Ministry is in process of procuring assault rifle through global route with transfer technology to Ordnance Factory Board.

"As such, the reply did not mention that the weapon was outdated or defective. The endeavour on the part of the government for ensuring availability of latest and modern weapons to its forces should not be construed in terms of the present weapon being held as defective," it added.

Taking note of the Centre's submission, the court asked the petitioner's counsel to take instruction whether the petition can be closed as the issues has been considered by the government. To which, the counsel sought time to take instruction."

Govt. states they are in process of acquiring a new rifle via TOT route and this is Aug 2015.

Refer to this another article dated Dec 30, 2015, ET

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...as-not-a-replacement/articleshow/50387635.cms

It quotes army sources as calling even the Excalibur as just an interim replacement, while the army still hunts for world class alternative for INSAS. And it even trashes your beloved 1B1...do read if you wish or have honesty to do so.

Sample another article:

http://www.catchnews.com/india-news...oint-special-force-is-crucial-1456567453.html

Refers to the latest unfortunate and heartbreaking Pampore encounter, and how it bemoans the dearth of Tavors for existing Para battalions, do note the terms in which INSAS has been referred to here.

Tell you what, leave aside your still unproven and would never be proven, sub 9 Pound(4Kg) fully loaded INSAS.

Give me any neutral news links, neutral experts, international gun forums, international gun rankings, which praise or list the Insas 5.56 Standard as a world class or heck even a decent rifle.

Please do not quote the geniuses of DFI though, some of whom consider an over 10 Pound intermediate round firing, so called Assault Rifle, which was once even meant to be used for CQB and COIN as God`s gift to IA and mankind...

This is what a service rifle is meant to be, 35 yrs in active IA service, and still being effectively used by Police forces across India.

http://static.dnaindia.com/sites/default/files/2015/01/04/234053-0605-puadwe0147-pun-23.png

What was the service tenure of INSAS again when IA and MOD started looking for a replacement.?
Therein lies your answer dear friend on worthiness of INSAS as a weapon system.
Proof in the pudding as they say.

Dunno what agenda you guys are pushing around here and why? Maybe just push forward the POV of IA, or MOD or GOI. But it doesnt wash with me one bit.

Man you dont trust a veteran and you don't trust a ex indian army chief

But you trust news reporters who dont know a single thing about guns

I think you never saw insas from your eyes In your life leave alone the possibility of holding and firing from it.
You don't know the conditions in which indian army fighting.
But now you are questioning about the decisions army make for its soldiers.
And economics which indian government had for army.

Bhai sab galat h aap sahi ho

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am not much of a argument winner, you seems to be arrogant and stubborn, Despite know that you are wrong ..

I could have break every sentence in your long post based on old articles which were broken many times before, But rather not, There is sufficient rebuts made to break your tall claims, I am afraid you have no clue of combat.

So long, Indeed ..

 

[sydsnyper]

I dont know if anyone has seen this.... it is in UP...

 

[sasum]

I dont know if anyone has seen this.... it is in UP...

Even Pak TV will not show such a cruel, demoralizing clip.

 

[pmaitra]

Damn, you really are the fanatical fanboy arent you? and i seeming to have gotten your goat by swinging at your fav. toy.

Keep the discussion civil. I don't want to evict anyone from threads, but please do not force my hand.

I have not used the INSAS, but @Kunal Biswas has. I have, however, used US civilian 5.56 mm ammo. I have seen guns with the finest craftmanship you could get your hands on, but they jam.

Assault weapons are not meant to be a fashion show. If @Kunal Biswas says INSAS is good for the job, I would take his word to be true.

 

[Immanuel]

INSAS, the original was a decent rifle, sure had issues but those were fixed in the 1B1 which is good as any modern rifle in terms of relibility. The rifle has been extensively used by forces across the country in harsh terrain & has a proven reliability. Offcourse, any weapon is only as good the care given to it, trust that even the famous AK can jam with improper care. Hence, regular cleaning and miantenance of any rifle should be standard procedure.

 

[Chinmoy]

Very logical points raised by you and let me respond to them.

1. The issue with INSAS is vis-a-vis 5.56 NATO is not about the round itself but the rifle, hell even Tavor, HK 416, Steyr AUG etc. all fire 5.56 but do not hear too many complaints about them do we? An 18 Inch poorly designed 4.5 KG+ rifle is simply too unwieldy too fire just a intermediate 5.56 round. It kinda reminds me of the too much dynamite but too little fuse joke, wonder if uve ever heard it.

2. M16 sure was a failure but that rifle evolved so much, its now on series M16A4 which is currently in use by US Marines and besides it still has a standard 20 inch barrel. How many upgrades has the INSAS had since the 90s except the black furniture change. Dont think we can call Excalibur and upgarde coz thats a 16 inch separate rifle altogether.

3. Regarding 7.62 Vs 5.56, that debate has been on since forever, and especially fueled coz the sheer inadequacies of the M4 in Afghanistan which is a large calier battlefield. Youd be surprised to know , that the biggest killer of US and allied troops in Afghanistan is not 7.62x39 but rather the ancient 7.62x54R. Solution has been then have two cartridge variants of the same rifle, eg. FN SCAR H and SCAR L, HK 416 and 417, or an AR 10 for that matter. Did we ever have an INSAS 7.62 or even hear of it for different theates of war?
Another solution to have middle ground cartridges like 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. We never heard of INSAS being chambered in such experimental rounds did we?

4. Staying with Ammo, when ur faced with challenges, and inadequacies of ur rifle, u experiment with your ammo to atleast make it more effective, so u have deep penetrating rounds like the M855 and the steel core M855A1, for M16 and M4s. To compensate for their lack of punch and stopping power. Any such modifications or Ammo evolution for the INSAS?

5. Finally you make my own case, in the last part of your answer, INSAS is a badly designed and unwieldy weapon with no clear role and objective designated for it. And as you say it happened coz of little involvement of forces who were going to actually use it. So India should get back to design board and start afresh learn from the experiences of the past 20-30 years, and projected threats and challenges of next 20-30 and create a platform we can be proud of, and can also be a great export proposition as well, giving a boost to our arms industry. Till thats done adopt a weapon which is best suited for current and short term challenges whether foreign made or indigenous. As far as armed forces requirements go we should be origin agnostic.

INSAS is definitely not a platform for the future, nor for the present. hell it weighs more than 4.5 Kgs, while a full 20 inch barrel M16 still weighs less than 4 Kgs when fully loaded, and its almost a 60 yr old design now.

Time to reboot, reset and redesign.

What you have mentioned here are quite valid points and ofcourse these are points you need to keep in mind when taking the next step. Lets take your points here......

1- From whom had you exactly heard all the problems from. Did anyone ever tried to interact with the infantry men in last 4 to 5 years who does use this system day in and out? Each and every time we are reading to and listening to complaints and issues raised by some EX- Majors or colonels. I do agree that it had been a nightmare during its induction and its operation against the Maoist in Nepal. But since then works had been done on its drawbacks and since then I've never found any rifleman (few with whom I interacted) complaining about it. But again from time to time you could see some EX veteran who have hardly fired the weapon out of firing range shouting against it in media.

2- Now imagine US going the Indian way during the Vietnam war as AK is what they were up against and M-16 did performed very poorly against it. Do you think M16 would have been where it is now if US had not been stuck with it and worked on it?
The thing is we want the best for us, but lack the enthusiasm to work on what we have and make it best.

3 & 4- Its not the designers but the IA which asked for NATO 5.56 round instead of 7.62. Do you think the lazy bunch in OFB (as some does like to call them) would have invested their grey cells over designing something completely new instead of going for the tried and tested FN-FAL which is what the IA had been using earlier?
Moreover to experiment on a round and to design one, you need capital as well as intent from all sector, but capital is what we are short of and we lack intent from Govt as well as users.

5- If you have followed the recent news and development, you might have came across someone from IA drubbing Excalibur as a copy of INSAS and nothing new. You could agree or refute him as per your wish. But if you ask me, it has been the outcome of what you learned from INSAS and we all know how it came out successful in the test where Colt's and Baretta's were a failure.

Now see, the point is you don't need to go back to drawing board to improve or design each and every thing. Weapon designing is a continuous learning process and you need to improve on what you have made. Another thing which we do lack is aggressive marketing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Punjab Police with a Vintage Bren LMG chambered for 3o3, Probably a MK3 which has a shorter barrel ..

The only logic can be added for its use even now, Is that Punjab police still use 3o3 in mass and have lots of Rounds available compare to other calibers ..

=====================

A Bren gunner of 8th Royal Scots at Moostdijk, 6 November 1944.

 

[mikhail]

Punjab Police with a Vintage Bren LMG chambered for 3o3, Probably a MK3 which has a shorter barrel ..

The only logic can be added for its use even now, Is that Punjab police still use 3o3 in mass and have lots of Rounds available compare to other calibers ..

=====================

A Bren gunner of 8th Royal Scots at Moostdijk, 6 November 1944.

Every time i look at this picture my blood starts to boil in anger!!When our OFB has been producing INSAS LMGs for the last decade and a half then why on earth did the Punjab and the Delhi police didn't buy those instead of using these vintage junks which in all probability will jam during an actual live encounter!!
P.S.Even the policeman is holoding the LMG in the wrong manner!!Man,these policemen literally suck at their work and i used to believe that the Punjab Police was one of the finest in our country

 

[Immanuel]

I know the Bren is an old mule, but its one heck of a reliable mule. It only needs minor modern upgrades, I say drop some useless weight (replace wood stock with a collapsible one), keep the same mag, add some short rails up front and to the side, with sideways mounted zeiss optic we are looking at very good modern LMG.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Published on Sep 9, 2014
First part of a two-part video about the famous battle rifle of the British Empire, the Lee-Enfield No. 4. Mk. I. in the fabulous .303 british caliber, pitted against it's "grandson", or "nephew", the RFI Ishapore 2A1 manufactured in India. The indian rifle was made in 7,62 NATO (7,62x51mm), and fires absolutely safely the commercial 308 WIN cartridges. The rifle is in excellent condition, tha headspace is perfect, and let's discard the stupid rumor that indian steel in these rifles is inferior quality.

The steel used in these RFI rifles is top quality for the 1960's, selected for the hotter 7,62 NATO rounds (hotter than 303 brtish at least), and the rifles were made on the original british tooling, following the british instructions. Top quality, amazing trigger, nice accuracy. Loves lighter bullets, 147 grain boat tails f.e.

Let's compare the WWII british model and the late Cold-War Indian. ALso, let's check out the bayonets, accessories, and capabilities.

These two milsurp rifles are must-have for any collector out there. Imho, these rifles were the pinnacle of the bolt action rifle history, arguably the smoothest bolt aout there, and are actually still in service.

Accurate, powerful, reliable, they are more than suitable for target practice, hunting, competition etc.


==============================

This gun has mass export potential ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Mordanised Ishapore 2A1 by owner

 

[sydsnyper]

Ze German G-36 platform a failure ?!?!?!

http://www.dw.com/en/german-defense-minister-says-no-future-for-g36-rifles-in-bundeswehr/a-18399209

http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36-the-rifle-held-in-all-the-wrong-places/a-18402772

... and similar seems the fate of the 200 Million Euro MG5 order placed with H&K...

 

[Spindrift]

Assault Rifles are prohibited for civilians, licences are issued by states for .315 Bolt action rifle,12 Gauge and .32 Revolver/Pistol.

12 gauge - 20 - 30k depending of model.A newer pump action is also available,I don't know its cost.

.315 - Around 55,000

.32 - 60,000 ~


Also, the civilians ammo are without metal jacket.

Attached is a list of all prohibited bore and non prohibited bore calibers issued by MHA.
Calibers such as 5.56 are not prohibited, however the action of the rifle is i.e. full and semi auto are prohibited and civilians can by jacketed ammo. If you have a license for 30.06 rifle you'll only fine jacketed ammo for it in the market.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

IOF pump action is around 4 lac around here ..

Their are some other making pump action but not reliable after 2-3 years ..

A newer pump action is also available,I don't know its cost...

 

[Bornubus]

Attached is a list of all prohibited bore and non prohibited bore calibers issued by MHA.
Calibers such as 5.56 are not prohibited, however the action of the rifle is i.e. full and semi auto are prohibited and civilians can by jacketed ammo. If you have a license for 30.06 rifle you'll only fine jacketed ammo for it in the market.

I am not aware if OFB make any 30.06 for civilians, all those which are issued in the past are Springfield or M1 if I am not wrong, my Nanaji had the license of M1 Carbine back in the late 70s which is now a prohibited bore and its license can't be issue any more.

It will be seized once the licensee die.

For long they purchased it's rounds from Mhow (black market) and at exorbitant price.

The most popular Rifle in Indian market is .315

 

[Bornubus]

IOF pump action is around 4 lac around here ..

Their are some other making pump action but not reliable after 2-3 years ..

Damm its too costly, OFB should come up with some sleeker semi auto Rifle design.

M1 carbine was the best Rifle issued for civilians.
Bolt action design is too old and impractical for personal protection, by the time you cock the rifle the criminals armed with something better already done his job.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Automatic firearms are ban, IOF stop making these pump actions after some bureaucratic prick declared it too dangerous in hands of civilians and stop its production for civil use, that is why so costly ..

Originally these were little more than 25k, IOF rifles are best for sporting, For personal defense its revolvers are best as they are reliable than IOF pistol, Unfortunately .32 is best they offer ..

================

Criminal and rioters are always better armed ..

Damm its too costly, OFB should come up with some sleeker semi auto Rifle design.

M1 carbine was the best Rifle issued for civilians.
Bolt action design is too old and impractical for personal protection, by the time you cock the rifle the criminals armed with something better already done his job.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not sure how they get these 9mm service issues ..

 

[Spindrift]

I am not aware if OFB make any 30.06 for civilians, all those which are issued in the past are Springfield or M1 if I am not wrong, my Nanaji had the license of M1 Carbine back in the late 70s which is now a prohibited bore and its license can't be issue any more.

It will be seized once the licensee die.

For long they purchased it's rounds from Mhow (black market) and at exorbitant price.

The most popular Rifle in Indian market is .315

Regarding IOFs 30.06 check this out http://rfi.nic.in/booking/prod/30-06.htm.

Regarding your Nanaji's M1 carbine, get one of the legal heirs to get themselves added as a retainer in the license, check out section 13 of the Arms Rule of 1962 for that as that would help in the future to get the license for it under the family heirloom category.

P.S. Licenses for PB are issues by the MHA. Also i see that you are quite passionate about guns and i would suggest, if you are not already on, to join IFG https://www.indiansforguns.com/