Shenyang J-31 stealth fighter with no-smoke Chinese engines | Alert 5

Martian

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
1,624
Likes
417
J-31 is stealthier than the F-35 due to thin wing root and straight weapon bay


The Chinese J-31 has a thin straight wing root. "Thin" means a small surface area for reflecting radar waves. "Straight" conforms with facet design to minimize reflection direction.


The American F-35 has a thick wing root. Thick means more surface area for radar reflection. Also, the F-35 wing root is roundish. Round is terrible for stealth. It means multiple directions for radar reflections. [Note: "Continuous curvature" is like a duck bill and not related to round.]


All three F-35 versions share a common airframe. The STOVL version (or F-35B) requires a lift-fan and leads to an unstealthy thick wing root and angled bay doors.

A fundamental problem with the F-35 design is the specification to accommodate a vertical-takeoff lift-fan for the F-35B STOVL version. Since all three versions of the F-35 must have the same basic airframe, we see the same unstealthy characteristics on all F-35 versions.

Due to the F-35 airframe that can support a lift-fan (whether it is actually present on the A and C versions is not relevant), all F-35s have a thick wing root. The thick wing root is not stealthy. The J-31 has a much thinner wing root and it is stealthier.

Also, the middle of the F-35 bottom fuselage is reserved for the lift-fan exhaust. This means the F-35 bay doors have to be skewed. This is bad aerodynamics (due to increased air resistance) and lead to much heavier hydraulics on the doors to push/keep it open at high speed. The increased weight leads to degraded F-35 acceleration and maneuverability performance.

Finally, due to the lack of room, the F-35 weapon bays bulge outward. There is a lack of space, because the center fuselage is reserved for the lift-fan and exhaust duct. The bulging F-35 weapon bays are not stealthy. It degrades the imperative of facet-shaping stealth.

In conclusion, the Chinese J-31 stealth fighter design is superior to the American F-35. The F-35 is less stealthy, because its specification requires a fuselage to accommodate a lift-fan.
 

Martian

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
1,624
Likes
417
Chinese turbofan engines don't smoke and the WS-10 engine has a lifetime of "over 1,500 hours"

Chinese turbofan engines are superior to Russian engines, because Chinese engines don't smoke. This means Chinese turbofan engines have complete combustion. In contrast, the Russian engines have incomplete combustion and this results in noticeable smokiness from Russian engines.

China's WS-10 engine has a lifetime of over 1,500 hours (see citation below) and this is pretty close to western engines.

The permitted life-cycle for the Eurofighter Typhoon engine is about 1,500 hours.

Eurofighter Typhoon EF-2000 | Global Security
"Germany also sharply cut the estimated number of safe flying hours in each of their 108 delivered to date. Eurofighter temporarily halved the Typhoon’s permitted life-cycle to 1,500 hours as a precaution."
----------

Zhuhai Air Show 2014: WS-10 engine is now fully operational and matured. | Errymath

"Mr.Dong: ...WS-10's life is over 1500 hours, completely in accordance with the design requirements. 300 hours is the span between each regular maintenance."


----------

Original interview with Mr. Dong, "an exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute," at Sina.com after translation by Google Translate.

Turbine 10 R & D personnel: Sino-US engine gap of less | Sina

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Neo

Pandora

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
917
Likes
1,884
Country flag
Though I respect Chinese ingenuity,but this Copy Paste of F 35 with double engine configuration.
 

Martian

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
1,624
Likes
417
Though I respect Chinese ingenuity,but this Copy Paste of F 35 with double engine configuration.
The F-35 has a lift-fan and thus, a wide and thick fuselage.

The Chinese J-31 is a slim fighter without the bumpiness and weight problems of the F-35. They are two very different aircraft.

The J-31 is designed to supercruise. The F-35 is NOT designed to supercruise.

The J-31 has a lateral maneuverability of 9G. The F-35 is not very maneuverable and only has a lateral maneuverability of 4.5 to 5G, depending on the model.

The J-31 has a service ceiling of 66,000 feet. The F-35 has a service ceiling of only 50,000 feet. The J-31 flies 16,000 feet higher and has a commanding look-down shoot-down capability.
----------

Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter, China | Airforce-Technology

"The service ceiling of the [J-31] aircraft is approximately 20,000m." (or 66,000 feet)

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Neo

India22

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
629
Likes
321
F-35 has a lift-fan and thus, a wide and thick fuselage.

The Chinese J-31 is a slim fighter without the bumpiness and weight problems of the F-35. They are two very different aircraft.

The J-31 is designed to supercruise. The F-35 is NOT designed to supercruise.

The J-31 has a lateral maneuverability of 9G. The F-35 is not very maneuverable and only has a lateral maneuverability of 4.5 to 5G, depending on the model.

The J-31 has a service ceiling of 66,000 feet. The F-35 has a service ceiling of only 50,000 feet. The J-31 flies 16,000 feet higher and has a commanding look-down shoot-down capability.
Good for China. How about J 20 then? Will both be accepted?
 

Martian

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
1,624
Likes
417
Good for China. How about J 20 then? Will both be accepted?
J-20 is the heavyweight stealth fighter with long range.

J-31 is the medium-weight stealth fighter with shorter range, but in larger numbers to control an airspace.

The J-20 will be used for long-range penetration strikes against opposing AWACS and refueling tankers. With the J-20's larger radar, the J-20 will also look for F-22s.

The J-31 will probably be used to control airspace as the Chinese military expands slowly outwards in a military conflict.

The J-20 and J-31 hi-lo mix is standard military doctrine for modern warfare.
 

Cutting Edge

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2016
Messages
126
Likes
167
J-31 is stealthier than the F-35 due to thin wing root and straight weapon bay


The Chinese J-31 has a thin straight wing root. "Thin" means a small surface area for reflecting radar waves. "Straight" conforms with facet design to minimize reflection direction.


The American F-35 has a thick wing root. Thick means more surface area for radar reflection. Also, the F-35 wing root is roundish. Round is terrible for stealth. It means multiple directions for radar reflections. [Note: "Continuous curvature" is like a duck bill and not related to round.]


All three F-35 versions share a common airframe. The STOVL version (or F-35B) requires a lift-fan and leads to an unstealthy thick wing root and angled bay doors.

A fundamental problem with the F-35 design is the specification to accommodate a vertical-takeoff lift-fan for the F-35B STOVL version. Since all three versions of the F-35 must have the same basic airframe, we see the same unstealthy characteristics on all F-35 versions.

Due to the F-35 airframe that can support a lift-fan (whether it is actually present on the A and C versions is not relevant), all F-35s have a thick wing root. The thick wing root is not stealthy. The J-31 has a much thinner wing root and it is stealthier.

Also, the middle of the F-35 bottom fuselage is reserved for the lift-fan exhaust. This means the F-35 bay doors have to be skewed. This is bad aerodynamics (due to increased air resistance) and lead to much heavier hydraulics on the doors to push/keep it open at high speed. The increased weight leads to degraded F-35 acceleration and maneuverability performance.

Finally, due to the lack of room, the F-35 weapon bays bulge outward. There is a lack of space, because the center fuselage is reserved for the lift-fan and exhaust duct. The bulging F-35 weapon bays are not stealthy. It degrades the imperative of facet-shaping stealth.

In conclusion, the Chinese J-31 stealth fighter design is superior to the American F-35. The F-35 is less stealthy, because its specification requires a fuselage to accommodate a lift-fan.
Great to see some advance technology development from China, a country that west tried to keep as much backwards as possible. They tried to impose all sanctions on China, even Russia abandoned them at one point. Yet Chinese succeeded against all odds in just one generation. hats off to Chinese people.:yo:

We Indian members shouldn't criticize Chinese technology and defend western maal. Instead we must accept their development and take a deep look at our own abilities. Sadly for us Chinese are developing 5th gen planes and we are begging for old F-16 from Uncle Sam.:frusty:

We should learn something from China and try to compete with them with indigenous tech just like how US and USSR competed against each other during cold war. Only this way we will ever have chance to become a world power.

Jai Hind:india2:
 

Martian

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
1,624
Likes
417
Flight Global shows J-31 picture with clear exhaust (obviously a Chinese turbofan engine)


China's J-31 medium-weight stealth fighter second-prototype is equipped with Chinese turbofan engines that do not emit black smoke (which occurred on the first J-31 prototype with Russian turbofan engines).
----------

China’s second FC-31 takes flight | Flight Global

"A brief, grainy video purported to be of the flight also indicates that the engines are not smoking. The J-31 that performed during Airshow China in Zhuhai in 2014 was notable for the exhaust produced by its pair of [Russian] Klimov R-93 engines."

 

OnePunchMan

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
136
Likes
204
Great to see some advance technology development from China, a country that west tried to keep as much backwards as possible. They tried to impose all sanctions on China, even Russia abandoned them at one point. Yet Chinese succeeded against all odds in just one generation. hats off to Chinese people.:yo:

We Indian members shouldn't criticize Chinese technology and defend western maal. Instead we must accept their development and take a deep look at our own abilities. Sadly for us Chinese are developing 5th gen planes and we are begging for old F-16 from Uncle Sam.:frusty:

We should learn something from China and try to compete with them with indigenous tech just like how US and USSR competed against each other during cold war. Only this way we will ever have chance to become a world power.

Jai Hind:india2:
don't be fooled by chinese CCP propaganda this plane is a more lemon than F-135 whose single engine produces more thrust than the 2 coal powered engines on this cheap knock off

upload_2016-12-29_0-1-42.png



see that???? its a total junker the only thing PLAAF has in its armory is the russian Su-27 and israeli laavi copies they are somewhat worthy to be even considered as a opponenet rest is nothing but hogwash and pure CCP propaganda.
 

hardip

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2015
Messages
462
Likes
379
J-31 is stealthier than the F-35 due to thin wing root and straight weapon bay


The Chinese J-31 has a thin straight wing root. "Thin" means a small surface area for reflecting radar waves. "Straight" conforms with facet design to minimize reflection direction.


The American F-35 has a thick wing root. Thick means more surface area for radar reflection. Also, the F-35 wing root is roundish. Round is terrible for stealth. It means multiple directions for radar reflections. [Note: "Continuous curvature" is like a duck bill and not related to round.]


All three F-35 versions share a common airframe. The STOVL version (or F-35B) requires a lift-fan and leads to an unstealthy thick wing root and angled bay doors.

A fundamental problem with the F-35 design is the specification to accommodate a vertical-takeoff lift-fan for the F-35B STOVL version. Since all three versions of the F-35 must have the same basic airframe, we see the same unstealthy characteristics on all F-35 versions.

Due to the F-35 airframe that can support a lift-fan (whether it is actually present on the A and C versions is not relevant), all F-35s have a thick wing root. The thick wing root is not stealthy. The J-31 has a much thinner wing root and it is stealthier.

Also, the middle of the F-35 bottom fuselage is reserved for the lift-fan exhaust. This means the F-35 bay doors have to be skewed. This is bad aerodynamics (due to increased air resistance) and lead to much heavier hydraulics on the doors to push/keep it open at high speed. The increased weight leads to degraded F-35 acceleration and maneuverability performance.

Finally, due to the lack of room, the F-35 weapon bays bulge outward. There is a lack of space, because the center fuselage is reserved for the lift-fan and exhaust duct. The bulging F-35 weapon bays are not stealthy. It degrades the imperative of facet-shaping stealth.

In conclusion, the Chinese J-31 stealth fighter design is superior to the American F-35. The F-35 is less stealthy, because its specification requires a fuselage to accommodate a lift-fan.

Have to say ...........chiness r masters of copies...

ditto copy of F22 Raptor..

But they r diverse clapping...

waiting for that days...when ...
chines and American jet Dogfight each other...
 

hardip

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2015
Messages
462
Likes
379
po
Chinese turbofan engines don't smoke and the WS-10 engine has a lifetime of "over 1,500 hours"

Chinese turbofan engines are superior to Russian engines, because Chinese engines don't smoke. This means Chinese turbofan engines have complete combustion. In contrast, the Russian engines have incomplete combustion and this results in noticeable smokiness from Russian engines.

China's WS-10 engine has a lifetime of over 1,500 hours (see citation below) and this is pretty close to western engines.

The permitted life-cycle for the Eurofighter Typhoon engine is about 1,500 hours.

Eurofighter Typhoon EF-2000 | Global Security
"Germany also sharply cut the estimated number of safe flying hours in each of their 108 delivered to date. Eurofighter temporarily halved the Typhoon’s permitted life-cycle to 1,500 hours as a precaution."
----------

Zhuhai Air Show 2014: WS-10 engine is now fully operational and matured. | Errymath

"Mr.Dong: ...WS-10's life is over 1500 hours, completely in accordance with the design requirements. 300 hours is the span between each regular maintenance."


----------

Original interview with Mr. Dong, "an exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute," at Sina.com after translation by Google Translate.

Turbine 10 R & D personnel: Sino-US engine gap of less | Sina


Possible Chinese Hacker crack Us Technology for Turbofan Engine.......
that s the way chines always got Technology....
 

StealthFlanker

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
729
Likes
523
Country flag
J-31 is stealthier than the F-35 due to thin wing root and straight weapon bay
The Chinese J-31 has a thin straight wing root. "Thin" means a small surface area for reflecting radar waves. "Straight" conforms with facet design to minimize reflection direction.
It quite pathetic how you try to sneaky posting those nonsense proparganda but dont dare to reply when someone debunked those. Like when you run from this thread:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-4k-quality-alert-5.77722/page-3#post-1226927
or this one:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/j20-stealth-fighter.17450/page-113
:pound::pound:

The American F-35 has a thick wing root. Thick means more surface area for radar reflection..
Know why F-35 got thick wing root ? because it is a blended wing -body design and in general thicker airfoil provide more Cl at high AoA => more lift for turning

Another reason for the thick wing root is to accommodate 2 cooling vents which in turn will help reduce fuselage infrared signature



Also, the F-35 wing root is roundish. Round is terrible for stealth. It means multiple directions for radar reflections. [Note: "Continuous curvature" is like a duck bill and not related to round.].
:pound: Still haven't learn anything have you, how many time do we have to go over my old post?
I will quote myself again until you get it through your thick skull:
Main reason many people think lumps , circular shape are not stealthy is because that what they saw on legacy not stealthy aircraft , missiles

Then they saw stealth missiles and stealth aircraft with facets and angular shape


Since most people dont have the deep understanding of electromagnetic physics , their general conclusion from what they observed would be " many edge = stealth , many round shape = not stealth ". That what lack of knowledge will give you.
While they appear to be similar , the signature characteristic of those lumps on stealth fighter and the circular tube body of legacy aircraft are not the same at all. The main problem with a round tube like on F-104 or Tomahawk missiles is that they allow creeping wave return to come back to the source (radar surface wave will curved around the nose then come back), which is why they are so bad for stealth and VLO aircraft dont have circular tube body


But on stealth aircraft , while they have circular lumps , those lumps never complete a full circle or located at the edge , so even though surface wave still curve around those things , they do not came back to the source. In fact , all later stealth aircraft such as B-2 , F-35 , F-22 use blended facets instead of full facet like on F-117. Shapes composed of blended facets are not only more aerodynamic,but also allow currents to smoothly transition at their edges, reducing surface-wave emissions. Therefore, blended bodies have the potential for a lower RCS than fully faceted structures ,especially at low frequencies regime
 

StealthFlanker

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
729
Likes
523
Country flag

All three F-35 versions share a common airframe. The STOVL version (or F-35B) requires a lift-fan and leads to an unstealthy thick wing root and angled bay doors.

A fundamental problem with the F-35 design is the specification to accommodate a vertical-takeoff lift-fan for the F-35B STOVL version. Since all three versions of the F-35 must have the same basic airframe, we see the same unstealthy characteristics on all F-35 versions.

Due to the F-35 airframe that can support a lift-fan (whether it is actually present on the A and C versions is not relevant), all F-35s have a thick wing root. The thick wing root is not stealthy. The J-31 has a much thinner wing root and it is stealthier.
The F-35 has a lift-fan and thus, a wide and thick fuselage.
The lift fan has nothing to do with the skew weapon bay , the skew weapon bay of F-35 is due to requirement of being able to carry a 2000 lbs JDAM, and as explained many times before , the extra drag of the fan bay is not on F-35A/ F-35C version




The Chinese J-31 is a slim fighter without the bumpiness and weight problems of the F-35. They are two very different aircraft.
It is basically an F-35 without DAS , DIRCM , shorter range , no cooling vents and weaker engine.

The J-31 is designed to supercruise. The F-35 is NOT designed to supercruise.
F-35 can maintain Mach 1.2 on dry thrust, on the otherhand, J-31 have not demonstrated anything remotely similar

The J-31 has a lateral maneuverability of 9G. The F-35 is not very maneuverable and only has a lateral maneuverability of 4.5 to 5G, depending on the model.
Idiotic comment as usual:
Firstly ,the 5 G limits of F-35 is not the instataneous G limit but the sustained G limit at a specific data point ( Mach 0.8 , 20K feet ).There are a significant different between the 2 data point. The instataneous G limit of F-35 is 9G ,and it has already been tested to 9.9G

At that time, Griffith had taken one of the initial F-35A test aircraft to 583 KCAS (exceeding Mach 1.2). Now, as the pace of testing continues to accelerate despite earlier delays caused by an inflight dual generator failure, and problems with the integrated power package (IPP), the jet has been flown to Mach 1.61.
The aircraft has also been flown to 9.9g – which is 0.9g beyond the operational limits.
http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1025143
Secondly,as mentioned earlier , instantaneous G limit and sustained G limit are not the same value , they differ due to speed and altitude. Case in point , ultimate G limit of F-22 is 9 G , however at 30K feet , Mach 0.9 , it can barely sustain 3.7 G



The J-31 has a service ceiling of 66,000 feet. The F-35 has a service ceiling of only 50,000 feet. The J-31 flies 16,000 feet higher
I like how you cherry pick your source of information, but you know what , it doesnot matter because service ceilling is not where aircraft fly. It is is the maximum usable altitude of an aircraft where the maximum rate of climb is equal around 500 ft/min. No sane pilot want to fly at aircraft service ceiling unless he want to have close to zero excess power for any maneuver. Not to mention that pilots are not allowed to excess 50Kfeet for more than a few minutes without a pressure suit.In reality, most fighter cruise between 30-35K feet and fight at similar altitude.
Technically speaking, there is no way J-31 service celling is at 66k feet, its wing area is practically the same as F-35 , it uses the same inlet too. Roundly similar top speed, with J-31 could potentially slightly faster due to lower bypass engine and slightly less cross section area. But that it. Not even an empty F-15 with its variable inlet , extremely low wing loading can maintain level flight at 66k feet , to say that J-31 can somehow do such a thing is pretty much nonsense

and has a commanding look-down shoot-down capability
For your information, even early F-15 had look down-shoot down capability
 
Last edited:

Mikesingh

Professional
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
6,936
Likes
26,608
Country flag
Good for China. How about J 20 then? Will both be accepted?
With all these 'stealth' fighters that China is producing why is it begging Russia for SU-35s? Seems they ain't too confident of their own fighters!
 

MrPresident

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2016
Messages
328
Likes
529
Country flag
With all these 'stealth' fighters that China is producing why is it begging Russia for SU-35s? Seems they ain't too confident of their own fighters!
Engine Tech brother!!! Chinese are not able to master there WS series jet engine.
 

Krusty

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
2,531
Likes
4,844
With all these 'stealth' fighters that China is producing why is it begging Russia for SU-35s? Seems they ain't too confident of their own fighters!
I have asked this question many times to the Chinese members if this forum. They just seem to ignore it. Why China is buying the SU35 when their Super stealth fighter is ready. Why are they buying the S400 when they have their HQ9? Infact, China was the first to stand in line for both then mentioned systems as soon as they were cleared for foreign sales by the Russian MOD.
 

Mikesingh

Professional
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
6,936
Likes
26,608
Country flag
I have asked this question many times to the Chinese members if this forum. They just seem to ignore it. Why China is buying the SU35 when their Super stealth fighter is ready. Why are they buying the S400 when they have their HQ9? Infact, China was the first to stand in line for both then mentioned systems as soon as they were cleared for foreign sales by the Russian MOD.
Just like their fake iPhones, and fake everything! They aren't sure of their capabilities and their FC-31s may self destruct in the air anytime....Just like my Chinese iPhone did!! Jeeeez! :devil:
 

lcafanboy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
3,596
Likes
12,660
Country flag
The original JSF F-35 will end up as a big turkey shoot in real war (with real air force and not some desert ME nation with no ground and air power), this is expert opinion by Americans themselves, which is the reason why they intend to keep production lines of F-16, F-18, and F-15 open. So this duplicate copy of it will end up being a bigger turkey shoot (as at least F-35 will have a decent avionics and EW suit). Both fighters are lethargic with no aerodynamics working in their favor a fully equipped Rafale will kick asses of both the fighters.

This happens when you copy things, like in exams if you copy from a front bencher and if he fails you too will fail.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top