Rustom 2/TAPAS/BH-201 MALE UAV News Updates and Discussions

[TPFscopes]

All these are correct. Yet the fact on ground is that south Korea has done it . Now south korea is much smaller economy then India it's GDP is some 1.5 trillion.

yup agreed

If south Korea can find money and resources for chip making so can India. It will happen.

its all depend on the country's policies and System.
present indian system is much favourable for it but still need too much improvement.

Just as reliance has entered into ship building because now there is huge demand and market in India and now it's worth taking the risk.

Reliance (Reliance Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group) didn't start from basic in ship building. They just takeover PIPAVAV SHIPYARD

 

[TPFscopes]

We can separate the procedure for high tech companies and make a single window clearances from the PMO .This will significantly reduce the time .OR we can public sector company and Venture capitalist fund to help domestic high tech companies .We are start of the 4 industrial revolution ,China is investing in R&D,so is Russia ,also EU and they are not very strong economic position , because if we crack it this time then for the next 50 years we have our economic base secured

hopefully, NDA's second term which may be after 2019 (if they won majority in assembly again) , may pass some strict rules and shift the Indian Industrial Policy to a new level.
till then we have to wait for it.



NOW BACK TO THE CORE TOPIC : RUSTOM-II

 

[airtel]

According to Russian forum they recently started using 55nm chips and will move to 40nm and to reach 28 nm it will take more years.... They are even behind China..... Because of sanctions.

We should buy fabrication equipments from Taiwan and South Korea and start fabrication in India as soon as possible.
But development of electronics industry in India is not possible without American help.

And without good electronics industry we can not make 5th generation fighters and UCAVs.

 

[Vijyes]

why don't you develop something useful instead of making big words....
if any help required ,ask us
atleast I'll be there for you.

Really? Big words? Defense expenditure is something one counts, especially the critical technology without which nothing will work? Don't speak of money when it comes to critical technology costs unless it is too expensive. I am not seeking a grand fabrication unit producing millions of chips a year. AMCA, Tejas etc needs only smaller scale manufacturing.

By 2020, current cost trends will lead to an average cost of between $15 billion and $20 billion for a leading-edge fab, according to the report. By 2016, the minimum capital expenditure budget needed to justify the building of a new fab will range from $8 billion to $10 billion for logic, $3.5 billion to $4.5 billion for DRAM and $6 billion to $7 billion for NAND flash, according to a report.

It is Expensive
Every company which wants to setup a fab in India wants the government to finance a significant portion of the fab cost. i.e. At current rates, the government should spend around Rs 70,000 Crores to get a fab at the current technology node.
The cost of doing an infrastructure project in India is at least twice that of rest of the world so the Fab cost will exceed 140,000 Crore.

Bureaucracy
There is a very small window in which a fab can win business. Once every 2–3 years companies on the leading technology edge move to the next technology node. If you want them to come to your fab instead of say GF, TSMC or Samsung you should be agile and be ready to target that window of 2–6 months where the foundry decision is being made… By the time to government appointed expert committee to recommend action based on the inputs from expert committee which was setup to review the financial feasibility of the proposal given by expert committee setup to check the technical feasibility report is available, this window would have closed.

Corruption

While setting up the fab your equipment has the tendency to get stuck in customs until certain “fees” are paid, all these can lead to loss of crucial ramp up time leading to loss of customer’s, penalties etc.

Political extortion

Even if the current government allowed you to setup the fab and facilitated everything, in a few years elections will be held and a new government sworn in, The concerned minister may call for a “review” of your project, its environment clearance, its compliance with various laws etc. If you fail to grease the right palms you might find that the fab is not compliant with some law or the other and needs to be shut down! (good luck spending the next 10 years fighting it out in the court…)

International laws If you grease the right palms, and get your fab running you would have violated various international anti-corruption laws, So be ready to find your top management behind bars soon.

Summing it up

These are the reasons you would find that every 3–4 years some or the other company makes a hue and cry about coming to India but does not. The risk of setting up a capital intensive business in India is very high. These problems are generic, They are not only related to Fabs. Take a look at the MoU’s signed at the various “Investor meets” across the country in the past decade and check how many of them were actually executed, Take a look at the various industrial parks in India. Most of them are empty!
Look around at all the FDI that has entered India and you will find that almost all of them are “low capital, low risk” and in most of the case even the capital is taken on loan from Indian bank with the Indian operations assets built using this capital as surety

1. IT: Labor Intensive, Buildings are mostly leased, computers are leased, investment is in people, non people investment may at most be double the salary cost.
2. Mining:Labor intensive, capital is used for trucks, earthmovers etc.
3. FMCG: Cola, Chips, soaps etc.. cost of production and equipment is negligible, strength is in distribution and logistics.
4. Fast Food: Franchise model, the outlets etc are owned by Indians, the brand owner takes a fees and a cut in profit for the use of his brand name and “consultation.

The reason you do not see Fab’s in India is the same reason you do not see any other multi-billion dollar capital investment in India.

Can you explain why will fabrication costs double in 3-4 years? We are unlikely to go beyond 14nm anytime soon. 14nm is almost the limit and maybe one more 10nm is left. We can't go to uni molecular layer chips. Also, maximum of 22nm technology should be enough for substituting Indian needs. Again, the question of greesing hands don't come if SEZ or some special zones are opened, government invests 70-80% of cost and the project is speeded up to be open in 2 years. Once open, it is difficult to close down. Fabrication unit is not a mining operation type business to have too many problems. Just saying that Indian investment needs are twice as international standards is another absurd statement taken out of thin air.

By the way, the wafer fabrication unit needs about 6 billion dollars as of now and IC fabrication needs 2 billion dollars each for analog and digital. This is for commercial scale manufacturing. For smaller scale, costs may vary. Since it is a critical requirement, I don't see any reason for government to not invest. No private player will invest in India at such huge costs. If India wants it, it must invest the money itself, even if necessary as a DRDO sub organisation and part of defence needs

 

[Vijyes]

According to Russian forum they recently started using 55nm chips and will move to 40nm and to reach 28 nm it will take more years.... They are even behind China.

View attachment 18067


We should buy fabrication equipments from Taiwan and South Korea and start fabrication in India as soon as possible.
But development of electronics industry in India is not possible without American help.

And without good electronics industry we can not make 5th generation fighters and UCAVs.

Russian military uses older technology and not the recent ones. The advantage of older technology is that the 180nm and 90nm wafer is thick and can withstand higher temperature, is vigorously tested for reliability. The temperature of the processor is not just because of processor operations but also operating temperature, engine heat etc. When AMCA is flying, its body is bound to get heated by drag, its internals are bound to get heated by engine heat as well as the heated outer body transmitting it inside. The 22nm, 28nm chips are thin and fragile. Even a small number of errors in the semiconductor can get exaggerated when the temperature rises and may cause problems. The medical equipment, military equipment etc don't use modern processors. F35 uses processors of 1995 powerpc and F22 uses 1990s type processor - something like i386.

 

[airtel]

Really? Big words? Defense expenditure is something one counts, especially the critical technology without which nothing will work? Don't speak of money when it comes to critical technology costs unless it is too expensive. I am not seeking a grand fabrication unit producing millions of chips a year. AMCA, Tejas etc needs only smaller scale manufacturing.



Can you explain why will fabrication costs double in 3-4 years? We are unlikely to go beyond 14nm anytime soon. 14nm is almost the limit and maybe one more 10nm is left. We can't go to uni molecular layer chips. Also, maximum of 22nm technology should be enough for substituting Indian needs. Again, the question of greesing hands don't come if SEZ or some special zones are opened, government invests 70-80% of cost and the project is speeded up to be open in 2 years. Once open, it is difficult to close down. Fabrication unit is not a mining operation type business to have too many problems. Just saying that Indian investment needs are twice as international standards is another absurd statement taken out of thin air.

By the way, the wafer fabrication unit needs about 6 billion dollars as of now and IC fabrication needs 2 billion dollars each for analog and digital. This is for commercial scale manufacturing. For smaller scale, costs may vary. Since it is a critical requirement, I don't see any reason for government to not invest. No private player will invest in India at such huge costs. If India wants it, it must invest the money itself, even if necessary as a DRDO sub organisation and part of defence needs

Americans and Koreans have already developed 7 nm chips which are ready for production.
10 nm chips are already available in many smartphones like Samsung galaxy s8.

We need atleast 28 Nm Fabs but nobody is ready to share such critical technology with India and we can not get this technology without American approval.



The initial investment is very large and unless you are doing mass production..... It is not economically suitable.

 

[Vijyes]

Americans and Koreans have already developed 7 nm chips which are ready for production.
10 nm chips are already available in many smartphones like Samsung galaxy s8.

We need atleast 28 Nm Fabs but nobody is ready to share such critical technology with India and we can not get this technology without American approval.



The initial investment is very large and unless you are doing mass production..... It is not economically suitable.

7nm is only in laboratory condition. It is said to be the Moore limit. There was even 5nm technology. But that was different type of manufacturing. 10nm is the practical limit and that too is a technological challenge. 10nm jump from 14nm is bound to take some time. 7 nm will be much more challenging and is unlikely to be achieved in mass manufacturing scale

 

[TPFscopes]

Really? Big words? Defense expenditure is something one counts, especially the critical technology without which nothing will work? Don't speak of money when it comes to critical technology costs unless it is too expensive. I am not seeking a grand fabrication unit producing millions of chips a year. AMCA, Tejas etc needs only smaller scale manufacturing.

so, don't waste others time when you are nothing more than a Loquacious person.
Mr. Yechuri, your DP tells everything

Can you explain why will fabrication costs double in 3-4 years?

And who said that?

 

[Vijyes]

so, don't waste others time when you are nothing more than a Loquacious person.
Mr. Yechuri, your DP tells everything


And who said that?

Can you kindly stop writing big words without substance? Thank you. Tell Me what have you done? Or do you want to give excuses by citing problems everywhere? Do you ever bother giving solutions or just rant that nothing is ever possible in India but always possible everywhere else?

 

[IndianHawk]

Reliance (Reliance Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group) didn't start from basic in ship building. They just takeover PIPAVAV SHIPYARD

Exactly. That is what happens in india and China like giants. You can make money by selling simple things to millions of people and by that money you can buy high tech industries out right.

Just the way tata gobbled up Jaguar and Land Rover.

The point is that reliance saw the market firming up , demand rising exponentially for next 3-4 decades and so it jumped into ship building .

Same thing will repeat for different industries.

 

[TPFscopes]

Can you kindly stop writing big words without substance? Thank you. Tell Me what have you done? Or do you want to give excuses by citing problems everywhere? Do you ever bother giving solutions or just rant that nothing is ever possible in India but always possible everywhere else?

Dude,
my last project was multi function display at Samtel.
and for my recent work, I do not have permission to share anything about it.

so, Mr. Yechuri,
I stick with my words, if you want to do something instead of argue than surely i can help u...

 

[TPFscopes]

The point is that reliance saw the market firming up , demand rising exponentially for next 3-4 decades and so it jumped into ship building .

Same thing will repeat for different industries.

that might be another good way ...

by the way,In 2015 Cricket Semiconductor, a US based semiconductor company, has signed an MoU with Government of Madhya Pradesh to invest US$ 1 billion (approx 6000 Crore) to establish an analog semiconductor fab in the state. This was a significant boost to PM Modi's "Make in India" call
https://www.design-reuse.com/news/3...conductor-iesa-india-first-specialty-fab.html

Also, TATA Group is also trying to form a JV with South Korean Giant.

 

[Abhijat]

OT here , but a relevant quote : " We missed the semiconductor revolution in the early 1950s. We had just gained independence. But with nanoscience and technology , we can certainly be on equal footing with the rest of the world" - Prof CNR Rao , 2006.

Sent from my SM-A700FD using Tapatalk

 

[Vijyes]

Dude,
my last project was multi function display at Samtel.
and for my recent work, I do not have permission to share anything about it.

so, Mr. Yechuri,
I stick with my words, if you want to do something instead of argue than surely i can help u...

Thank you for working for the nation. I can't tell much more ( I learnt myself without any aid, but still I will keep it classified) except that by 2030 AMCA will be ready. Modi, Doval are working overtime to ensure that most of defence technology is with India. We will have WW3 little later. Congress is not corrupt but evil and is controlled by ISI. The prophecy of Armageddon, judgement day and kalki are true. I can't say why or how in scientific terms (classified). Believe or disbelieve, It is upto you. If you believe, produce 3-4 children to ensure higher chances of survival. If congress wins in 2019 or 2024, expect India to be facing the worst nightmare.

 

[Vijyes]

Exactly. That is what happens in india and China like giants. You can make money by selling simple things to millions of people and by that money you can buy high tech industries out right.

Just the way tata gobbled up Jaguar and Land Rover.

The point is that reliance saw the market firming up , demand rising exponentially for next 3-4 decades and so it jumped into ship building .

Same thing will repeat for different industries.

No, RDEL was a due to Modi's assurance. We will see a massive build up of defence soon. May be by 2025-30,the build up will begin. Just wait and watch

 

[TPFscopes]

Thank you for working for the nation. I can't tell much more ( I learnt myself without any aid, but still I will keep it classified) except that by 2030 AMCA will be ready. Modi, Doval are working overtime to ensure that most of defence technology is with India. We will have WW3 little later. Congress is not corrupt but evil and is controlled by ISI. The prophecy of Armageddon, judgement day and kalki are true. I can't say why or how in scientific terms (classified). Believe or disbelieve, It is upto you. If you believe, produce 3-4 children to ensure higher chances of survival. If congress wins in 2019 or 2024, expect India to be facing the worst nightmare.

Are you getting mad . If you are addicted to any type of intoxication than stop it urgently and consult a good psychiatrist.
Also don't watch too much HOLLYWOOD movies.

produce 3-4 children.

You are totally out of your mind, huh

 

[Vijyes]

Are you getting mad . If you are addicted to any type of intoxication than stop it urgently and consult a good psychiatrist.
Also don't watch too much HOLLYWOOD movies.


You are totally out of your mind, huh

See, jijad has to End one way or another. It will end one day. Think logically. As I said, I can't speak more. But, large and young population, indigenous technology and massive build up is mandatory to survive WW3.
As I told, believe or not is upto you. Just think logically.

 

[Starscream]

Americans and Koreans have already developed 7 nm chips which are ready for production.
10 nm chips are already available in many smartphones like Samsung galaxy s8.

We need atleast 28 Nm Fabs but nobody is ready to share such critical technology with India and we can not get this technology without American approval.



The initial investment is very large and unless you are doing mass production..... It is not economically suitable.

I hope you won't risk a human life on your 10 nm fragile general purpose SOC chip(Snapdragon 835 on S8) ..? I bet you would always pick purpose build 40nm chip with built-in heat management for all critical systems. You don't need heat induced CPU clock throtlling when that piece of silicon is your guidance module on the SAM doing a Mach 5 turn with tango on its 12...

These system are real time systems. They cannot sacrifice performance for packaging and battery life...When did 10nm wafers got rated for 10yrs of canesterizarion and then work perfectly when needed. We all know how often our phones die on us, like ever third/fourth year or like every other year if it's someones like me. The kind of forces these stuff go through the first few seconds after launch (continued the SAM example) its enough to crush the leads on the board, if that is built sturdy in the first place...

PS: I am all for smart weapons and jam packed processing powres on those. But it will take a lot of years to get there.

PPS: Absolutely not bad mouthing Snapdragon 835...Using 1+5 to write this...

 

[airtel]

I hope you won't risk a human life on your 10 nm fragile general purpose SOC chip(Snapdragon 835 on S8) ..? I bet you would always pick purpose build 40nm chip with built-in heat management for all critical systems. You don't need heat induced CPU clock throtlling when that piece of silicon is your guidance module on the SAM doing a Mach 5 turn with tango on its 12...

These system are real time systems. They cannot sacrifice performance for packaging and battery life...When did 10nm wafers got rated for 10yrs of canesterizarion and then work perfectly when needed. We all know how often our phones die on us, like ever third/fourth year or like every other year if it's someones like me. The kind of forces these stuff go through the first few seconds after launch (continued the SAM example) its enough to crush the leads on the board, if that is built sturdy in the first place...

PS: I am all for smart weapons and jam packed processing powres on those. But it will take a lot of years to get there.

PPS: Absolutely not bad mouthing Snapdragon 835...Using 1+5 to write this...

There is no human on a Uav /UCAVs.

If our equipment like radars, camera, sensors and other electronics are lighter and occupying less space then all that area can be used for carrying more fuel and more weapons.
That will provide better service ceiling , endurance and firepower to UCAVs.


It is not about battery or heat.


Can your old CPU handle all those data, sensor fusion and programs related to artificial intelligence without breaking down ??

Why you don't use your old 40 nm CPU in one plus 1 ??

That will give you 10 years of mobile life.

 

[TPFscopes]

See, jijad has to End one way or another. It will end one day. Think logically. As I said, I can't speak more. But, large and young population, indigenous technology and massive build up is mandatory to survive WW3.
As I told, believe or not is upto you.

may god help you...

i don't believe in hypothetical theories and there is no actual logic