Rustom 2/TAPAS/BH-201 MALE UAV News Updates and Discussions

[IndianHawk]

Many private companies are also involved in development of UAVs.... Like TATA & kalyani.... So soon we will achieve success in this field too.

Yes we will. It's just that the development cycle from design to testing to weaponising to operationalize naturally takes over a decade.

What we should priorities is make all survilance drones indegenious first building upon rustam and heron experience.

 

[Vijyes]

We are behind the curve by 10-15 years when it comes to uavs . Specially in combat UAV rustam 2 is our first shot. So for the next decade we will spend money on American and Israeli drones .

Good thing is to focus on Israel because chances of tot and learning curve is much higher with Israel.

If we invest billions from now on into UAV programs we might expect better results by 2025.

10-15 years? Are you serious? We just need HTFE engine and some avionics. UAV is not a tough technology. At most 10 years maximum needed.

We need UAV mainly to replace ASW, AWACS etc and not armed combat. UAVs can't go in high speed and hence will be an utterly easy target for SAM, AAA, MANPAD etc if we try to use it in combat against state actors.

 

[Pulkit]

10-15 years? Are you serious? We just need HTFE engine and some avionics. UAV is not a tough technology. At most 10 years maximum needed.

We need UAV mainly to replace ASW, AWACS etc and not armed combat. UAVs can't go in high speed and hence will be an utterly easy target for SAM, AAA, MANPAD etc if we try to use it in combat against state actors.

Just confused with your comments in particular....
Why do you think all the defense tech is easy to develop and build....

Try making a boomerang at home after watching all the YouTube etc and share the time you took to perfect it....

Open an old remote control disassemble it and try and assemble it back..... Then we can talk....

It's easy to say than to deliver.....

 

[Vijyes]

Just confused with your comments in particular....
Why do you think all the defense tech is easy to develop and build....

Try making a boomerang at home after watching all the YouTube etc and share the time you took to perfect it....

Open an old remote control disassemble it and try and assemble it back..... Then we can talk....

It's easy to say than to deliver.....

With heavy funding, we can hire large number of scientists and engineers for developing. We also have somewhat of an UAV. Rustom 1 even flew with NAG missile. I am sure it test fired that.

You are thinking that everything is so hard that it is impossible to be done quickly. UAV is not complex. It moves at 100-150kph and has pretty simple controls, no maneuverability, no complications etc

 

[airtel]

With heavy funding, we can hire large number of scientists and engineers for developing. We also have somewhat of an UAV. Rustom 1 even flew with NAG missile. I am sure it test fired that.

You are thinking that everything is so hard that it is impossible to be done quickly. UAV is not complex. It moves at 100-150kph and has pretty simple controls, no maneuverability, no complications etc

We can make UAVs even iran can make it. But the sensors, radars, cameras and weapons developed by DRDO are heavier because they are based on older technologies .

Which reduces the fuel carrying capacity, speed, endurance, range and service ceiling.

 

[Vijyes]

We can make UAVs even iran can make it. But the sensors, radars, cameras and weapons developed by DRDO are heavier because they are based on older technologies .

Which reduces the fuel carrying capacity, speed, endurance, range and service ceiling.

Agreed. That is what I was saying - we are behind others in terms of miniaturisation and electronics. It is not a matter of 10-15 years. Only about 7-8 years

 

[Pulkit]

With heavy funding, we can hire large number of scientists and engineers for developing. We also have somewhat of an UAV. Rustom 1 even flew with NAG missile. I am sure it test fired that.

You are thinking that everything is so hard that it is impossible to be done quickly. UAV is not complex. It moves at 100-150kph and has pretty simple controls, no maneuverability, no complications etc

I never said impossible but my timelines are not unrealistic.

Heavy funding ... Hahaha.... We don't have that kind of budget....
We need to be economical

 

[airtel]

Agreed. That is what I was saying - we are behind others in terms of miniaturisation and electronics. It is not a matter of 10-15 years. Only about 7-8 years

Only if we could get American support...
Our electronics industry is far behind them....
All the big electronic companies like Intel, Qualcomm, amd etc are American we are still using Intel I386 Processor in Tejas......which is many decades old processor and outdated technology.

Without American support we can not make electronic industry even in 15-20 years.
With American support we can make it within 2 years.

even Russians and Chinese are far behind USA.... And last time we got some help from Israel.

 

[Vijyes]

Only if we could get American support...
Our electronics industry is far behind them....
All the big electronic companies like Intel, Qualcomm, amd etc are American we are still using Intel I386 Processor in Tejas......which is many decades old processor and outdated technology.

Without American support we can not make electronic industry even in 15-20 years.
With American support we can make it within 2 years.

even Russians and Chinese are far behind USA.... And last time we got some help from Israel.

Military and other critical sectors use older electronics, especially 2000 ones for chips. The reason is that for higher reliability, the older generation is better suited and tested. The newer generation is made of thin technology to reduce power consumption. But when it comes to error free functionality and reliability at higher temperatures, the thicker ones are more robust. We don't need power efficient chips in military equipment. We don't use lithium ion batteries. We need highly robust ones. If you have seen your laptops shutting down when overheated, getting hung in between etc, then you will know what I am saying.

We need assistance from Taiwan or Japan or China or USA etc. The latest 14nm or 22nm technology is a big no for defence equipment. We have our own designers in semiconductor fabrication. India is the leader in designing them.

All India needs is a fabrication unit, from the ground level - IC (analog and digital), circuit board, wafer etc. As of now, Govt is planning to invest 10 billion dollars in the plants for these plants. They tried to get private investment for a year but that failed. Then they initiated MSIP incentives but still failed. So, now govt is going to make an investment on its own. The only fabrication facility in India is operated by ISRO. It is a small one that does not make thousands of chips a year.

 

[Vijyes]

I never said impossible but my timelines are not unrealistic.

Heavy funding ... Hahaha.... We don't have that kind of budget....
We need to be economical

Shut up you money minded prick. I have been telling you for long that budget can and will be increased soon, either from FY19 or FY20. This is a guarantee. Modi will leave no stone unturned in making indigenous technology.

As I have been telling technology is everything - it is more important than money. If it requires borrowing like fiscal deficit (printing notes), so be it. Govt can indulge in heavy printing of notes to get technology needed

 

[airtel]

We need assistance from Taiwan or Japan or China or USA etc. The latest 14nm or 22nm technology is a big no for defence equipment. We have our own designers in semiconductor fabrication. India is the leader in designing them.

Even Taiwan, Korea and Japan would not help without American approval so that is basically the same thing.

check your mobile phones there are less heating problems in 14 nm chips as compare to older 28 nm chips. New phones are slimmer and lightweight.

Indian fabs are still producing 90 nm chips..... Russia can produce 45nm chips. Even the Russian fab was established with the help of USA and France.

new fabrication techniques are useful in creation of lightweight and smaller equipment which produce less heat.

New fabrication process will increase the weapon carrying capacity, endurance and service ceiling of UAVs and 5th generation jets.

Indians are working in electronics industry but we are not leaders , All the patented technologies are under American companies.

This is why they are using Intel processors in tejas and sukhoi 30 mki.

 

[TPFscopes]

Shut up you money minded prick. I have been telling you for long that budget can and will be increased soon, either from FY19 or FY20. This is a guarantee. Modi will leave no stone unturned in making indigenous technology.

As I have been telling technology is everything - it is more important than money. If it requires borrowing like fiscal deficit (printing notes), so be it. Govt can indulge in heavy printing of notes to get technology needed

why don't you develop something useful instead of making big words....
if any help required ,ask us
atleast I'll be there for you.

 

[Bahamut]

Even Taiwan, Korea and Japan would not help without American approval so that is basically the same thing.

check your mobile phones there are less heating problems in 14 nm chips as compare to older 28 nm chips. New phones are slimmer and lightweight.

Indian fabs are still producing 90 nm chips..... Russia can produce 45nm chips. Even the Russian fab was established with the help of USA and France.

new fabrication techniques are useful in creation of lightweight and smaller equipment which produce less heat.

Next gen of 7nm processor will be ready in less then year and Russia will reach production of under 20nm processor by next year.We will have to catch up soon .Also we need chips with higher no of core which help in Deep learning

 

[TPFscopes]

CGI of system layout of TAPAS 201

 

[TPFscopes]

Next gen of 7nm processor will be ready in less then year and Russia will reach production of under 20nm processor by next year.We will have to catch up soon .Also we need chips with higher no of core which help in Deep learning

By 2020, current cost trends will lead to an average cost of between $15 billion and $20 billion for a leading-edge fab, according to the report. By 2016, the minimum capital expenditure budget needed to justify the building of a new fab will range from $8 billion to $10 billion for logic, $3.5 billion to $4.5 billion for DRAM and $6 billion to $7 billion for NAND flash, according to a report.

It is Expensive
Every company which wants to setup a fab in India wants the government to finance a significant portion of the fab cost. i.e. At current rates, the government should spend around Rs 70,000 Crores to get a fab at the current technology node.
The cost of doing an infrastructure project in India is at least twice that of rest of the world so the Fab cost will exceed 140,000 Crore.

Bureaucracy
There is a very small window in which a fab can win business. Once every 2–3 years companies on the leading technology edge move to the next technology node. If you want them to come to your fab instead of say GF, TSMC or Samsung you should be agile and be ready to target that window of 2–6 months where the foundry decision is being made… By the time to government appointed expert committee to recommend action based on the inputs from expert committee which was setup to review the financial feasibility of the proposal given by expert committee setup to check the technical feasibility report is available, this window would have closed.

Corruption

While setting up the fab your equipment has the tendency to get stuck in customs until certain “fees” are paid, all these can lead to loss of crucial ramp up time leading to loss of customer’s, penalties etc.

Political extortion

Even if the current government allowed you to setup the fab and facilitated everything, in a few years elections will be held and a new government sworn in, The concerned minister may call for a “review” of your project, its environment clearance, its compliance with various laws etc. If you fail to grease the right palms you might find that the fab is not compliant with some law or the other and needs to be shut down! (good luck spending the next 10 years fighting it out in the court…)

International laws If you grease the right palms, and get your fab running you would have violated various international anti-corruption laws, So be ready to find your top management behind bars soon.

Summing it up

These are the reasons you would find that every 3–4 years some or the other company makes a hue and cry about coming to India but does not. The risk of setting up a capital intensive business in India is very high. These problems are generic, They are not only related to Fabs. Take a look at the MoU’s signed at the various “Investor meets” across the country in the past decade and check how many of them were actually executed, Take a look at the various industrial parks in India. Most of them are empty!
Look around at all the FDI that has entered India and you will find that almost all of them are “low capital, low risk” and in most of the case even the capital is taken on loan from Indian bank with the Indian operations assets built using this capital as surety

1. IT: Labor Intensive, Buildings are mostly leased, computers are leased, investment is in people, non people investment may at most be double the salary cost.
2. Mining:Labor intensive, capital is used for trucks, earthmovers etc.
3. FMCG: Cola, Chips, soaps etc.. cost of production and equipment is negligible, strength is in distribution and logistics.
4. Fast Food: Franchise model, the outlets etc are owned by Indians, the brand owner takes a fees and a cut in profit for the use of his brand name and “consultation.

The reason you do not see Fab’s in India is the same reason you do not see any other multi-billion dollar capital investment in India.

 

[airtel]

Next gen of 7nm processor will be ready in less then year and Russia will reach production of under 20nm processor by next year.We will have to catch up soon .Also we need chips with higher no of core which help in Deep learning

That kind of technology requires a lot of investment and only if TATA- Ambani are ready to invest that much money in Indian electonics industry and we could get American support we will be able to make chips not only for defence sector but also for domestic consumers.

 

[IndianHawk]

By 2020, current cost trends will lead to an average cost of between $15 billion and $20 billion for a leading-edge fab, according to the report. By 2016, the minimum capital expenditure budget needed to justify the building of a new fab will range from $8 billion to $10 billion for logic, $3.5 billion to $4.5 billion for DRAM and $6 billion to $7 billion for NAND flash, according to a report.

It is Expensive
Every company which wants to setup a fab in India wants the government to finance a significant portion of the fab cost. i.e. At current rates, the government should spend around Rs 70,000 Crores to get a fab at the current technology node.
The cost of doing an infrastructure project in India is at least twice that of rest of the world so the Fab cost will exceed 140,000 Crore.

Bureaucracy
There is a very small window in which a fab can win business. Once every 2–3 years companies on the leading technology edge move to the next technology node. If you want them to come to your fab instead of say GF, TSMC or Samsung you should be agile and be ready to target that window of 2–6 months where the foundry decision is being made… By the time to government appointed expert committee to recommend action based on the inputs from expert committee which was setup to review the financial feasibility of the proposal given by expert committee setup to check the technical feasibility report is available, this window would have closed.

Corruption

While setting up the fab your equipment has the tendency to get stuck in customs until certain “fees” are paid, all these can lead to loss of crucial ramp up time leading to loss of customer’s, penalties etc.

Political extortion

Even if the current government allowed you to setup the fab and facilitated everything, in a few years elections will be held and a new government sworn in, The concerned minister may call for a “review” of your project, its environment clearance, its compliance with various laws etc. If you fail to grease the right palms you might find that the fab is not compliant with some law or the other and needs to be shut down! (good luck spending the next 10 years fighting it out in the court…)

International laws If you grease the right palms, and get your fab running you would have violated various international anti-corruption laws, So be ready to find your top management behind bars soon.

Summing it up

These are the reasons you would find that every 3–4 years some or the other company makes a hue and cry about coming to India but does not. The risk of setting up a capital intensive business in India is very high. These problems are generic, They are not only related to Fabs. Take a look at the MoU’s signed at the various “Investor meets” across the country in the past decade and check how many of them were actually executed, Take a look at the various industrial parks in India. Most of them are empty!
Look around at all the FDI that has entered India and you will find that almost all of them are “low capital, low risk” and in most of the case even the capital is taken on loan from Indian bank with the Indian operations assets built using this capital as surety

1. IT: Labor Intensive, Buildings are mostly leased, computers are leased, investment is in people, non people investment may at most be double the salary cost.
2. Mining:Labor intensive, capital is used for trucks, earthmovers etc.
3. FMCG: Cola, Chips, soaps etc.. cost of production and equipment is negligible, strength is in distribution and logistics.
4. Fast Food: Franchise model, the outlets etc are owned by Indians, the brand owner takes a fees and a cut in profit for the use of his brand name and “consultation.

The reason you do not see Fab’s in India is the same reason you do not see any other multi-billion dollar capital investment in India.

All these are correct. Yet the fact on ground is that south Korea has done it . Now south korea is much smaller economy then India it's GDP is some 1.5 trillion.

If south Korea can find money and resources for chip making so can India. It will happen.

It's the cycle of growth , currently an Indian corporate can make much more money by simply providing cheaper services and goods so they don't bother with deep technology investment.

But as economy matures it will create a market for high end products and then domestic corporations will start investing in those things.

Just as reliance has entered into ship building because now there is huge demand and market in India and now it's worth taking the risk.

 

[IndianHawk]

That kind of technology requires a lot of investment and only if TATA- Ambani are ready to invest that much money in Indian electonics industry and we could get American support we will be able to make chips not only for defence sector but also for domestic consumers.

India electronics import will cross oil in monetory value unless domestic capacity is established. It's some 300-400 billion $ Market opportunity. Tata ambani and others will be stupid if they don't make a run for it.

 

[Bahamut]

By 2020, current cost trends will lead to an average cost of between $15 billion and $20 billion for a leading-edge fab, according to the report. By 2016, the minimum capital expenditure budget needed to justify the building of a new fab will range from $8 billion to $10 billion for logic, $3.5 billion to $4.5 billion for DRAM and $6 billion to $7 billion for NAND flash, according to a report.

It is Expensive
Every company which wants to setup a fab in India wants the government to finance a significant portion of the fab cost. i.e. At current rates, the government should spend around Rs 70,000 Crores to get a fab at the current technology node.
The cost of doing an infrastructure project in India is at least twice that of rest of the world so the Fab cost will exceed 140,000 Crore.

Bureaucracy
There is a very small window in which a fab can win business. Once every 2–3 years companies on the leading technology edge move to the next technology node. If you want them to come to your fab instead of say GF, TSMC or Samsung you should be agile and be ready to target that window of 2–6 months where the foundry decision is being made… By the time to government appointed expert committee to recommend action based on the inputs from expert committee which was setup to review the financial feasibility of the proposal given by expert committee setup to check the technical feasibility report is available, this window would have closed.

Corruption

While setting up the fab your equipment has the tendency to get stuck in customs until certain “fees” are paid, all these can lead to loss of crucial ramp up time leading to loss of customer’s, penalties etc.

Political extortion

Even if the current government allowed you to setup the fab and facilitated everything, in a few years elections will be held and a new government sworn in, The concerned minister may call for a “review” of your project, its environment clearance, its compliance with various laws etc. If you fail to grease the right palms you might find that the fab is not compliant with some law or the other and needs to be shut down! (good luck spending the next 10 years fighting it out in the court…)

International laws If you grease the right palms, and get your fab running you would have violated various international anti-corruption laws, So be ready to find your top management behind bars soon.

Summing it up

These are the reasons you would find that every 3–4 years some or the other company makes a hue and cry about coming to India but does not. The risk of setting up a capital intensive business in India is very high. These problems are generic, They are not only related to Fabs. Take a look at the MoU’s signed at the various “Investor meets” across the country in the past decade and check how many of them were actually executed, Take a look at the various industrial parks in India. Most of them are empty!
Look around at all the FDI that has entered India and you will find that almost all of them are “low capital, low risk” and in most of the case even the capital is taken on loan from Indian bank with the Indian operations assets built using this capital as surety

1. IT: Labor Intensive, Buildings are mostly leased, computers are leased, investment is in people, non people investment may at most be double the salary cost.
2. Mining:Labor intensive, capital is used for trucks, earthmovers etc.
3. FMCG: Cola, Chips, soaps etc.. cost of production and equipment is negligible, strength is in distribution and logistics.
4. Fast Food: Franchise model, the outlets etc are owned by Indians, the brand owner takes a fees and a cut in profit for the use of his brand name and “consultation.

The reason you do not see Fab’s in India is the same reason you do not see any other multi-billion dollar capital investment in India.

We can separate the procedure for high tech companies and make a single window clearances from the PMO .This will significantly reduce the time .OR we can public sector company and Venture capitalist fund to help domestic high tech companies .We are start of the 4 industrial revolution ,China is investing in R&D,so is Russia ,also EU and they are not very strong economic position , because if we crack it this time then for the next 50 years we have our economic base secured

 

[airtel]

All these are correct. Yet the fact on ground is that south Korea has done it . Now south korea is much smaller economy then India it's GDP is some 1.5 trillion.

If south Korea can find money and resources for chip making so can India. It will happen.

It's the cycle of growth , currently an Indian corporate can make much more money by simply providing cheaper services and goods so they don't bother with deep technology investment.

But as economy matures it will create a market for high end products and then domestic corporations will start investing in those things.

Just as reliance has entered into ship building because now there is huge demand and market in India and now it's worth taking the risk.

Taiwan, South Korea etc successfully developed electronics industry only because they are American allies.

Their Government & All of their policies are controlled by USA.