Russia-Pakistan Rapproachment

[Compersion]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

USA is willing to sell more weapons to Pakistan, F-16CD and Super Hornet were available in 2004/5 when we selected 18+18 F-16's. The option is still there but PAF doesnt't want new weapons from USA due to political resrrictions. China is Pakistan's nr ally and soon we will see J-10C/Fc-20, J-11P and in near future chinese stealth in PAF colors.
If Russia opens up, russian avionics and weapon suit can be integeated into these fighters and supply.chain for.spares diversified. Russian.Su-35 would be most welcome for PN which desperately needs an combat air arm with range to counter threat from IN carriers. But is doesn't look likely.that it will be.ordered anytime soon.

good analysis. but what are the "political restrictions" that apply to USA but not to Russia.

Were those "political restrictions" in place when Pakistan defeated the Soviet Union and killed and caused sufferings to many Russian and Russian families.

 

[Neo]

good analysis. but what are the "political restrictions" that apply to USA but not to Russia.

Were those "political restrictions" in place when Pakistan defeated the Soviet Union and killed and caused sufferings to many Russian and Russian families.

With political restrictiins I refer to possible embargo by US during conflicts and the fact that new F-16's can not be used against India and have
A tempered friend and foe system: it can not lock on Nato/USAF and Israeli air craft. Some speculate
that it may even have a kill button and bugs to spy on Pakistan.

During the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan relations with ISA were normal. They only stated to deteriorate under Bush Junior with his WoT.

Raymond Davis, Ben Laden raid and the slaughter in Salala put the fial nail in Pak-US coffin. US is no longer seen as an ally by Pakistan. Trust and respect is all time low. These are not the ideal circumstances to spend more money on brand new weapons from USA.

 

[Compersion]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

With political restrictiins I refer to possible embargo by US during conflicts and the fact that new F-16's can not be used against India and have
A tempered friend and foe system: it can not lock on Nato/USAF and Israeli air craft. Some speculate
that it may even have a kill button and bugs to spy on Pakistan.

During the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan relations with ISA were normal. They only stated to deteriorate under Bush Junior with his WoT.

Raymond Davis, Ben Laden raid and the slaughter in Salala put the fial nail in Pak-US coffin. US is no longer seen as an ally by Pakistan. Trust and respect is all time low. These are not the ideal circumstances to spend more money on brand new weapons from USA.

thanks for responding also you express clearly. but its grim and also a lesson on how relations can do such a huge turnaround between one time close acquaintances. your expression of usa and paki relations is to the point and also adverse to one another especially with the "final nail" being implanted. i am not sure if that advocates it self to pakistan and russia relationship and if the "final nail" to that particular relationship can be pulled out just because there is pain in another relationship.

i believe pakistan also ought to be a little cautious in taking advise from america and nato and even anyone these days since a lot of its positions and actions impact its sovereignty and international relations and application and understanding of international laws. refer to drones and even abottabad and even raymond davis.

you seem to already downplay that su-35 will be bought by paki army. what about mi-35. how much and many are pakis thinking of getting.

can Pakistan also afford to get involved in Afghanistan in economic terms and structural impact on it self. remember the PRC does not stand by nations that make puerile decisions (refer to Kargil and even more recently to abbottabad). such instance in PRC and Pakistan relationship must be like a boy friend that gets caught with a affair by a girlfriend (its embarrassing and wrong but not futile compared to if it was husband and wife). PRC and Pakistan are like boyfriend and girlfriend that have good intimacy but its not like husband and wife. PRC has signified many times that Pakistan is not "wife" material.

i also think the current paki leadership with its exploration (some say "brain-storming" foreign policy) of seeking new and other avenues to enhance pakistan relations with others are coming to realize that PRC is not trustworthy and worth the "intimacy" and it might be worth to get closer to India at least economically. watching PRC make trips to India and also watching PRC grow without acknowledgment to Yaha Khan and AQ Khan is wrong.

If Pakistan offers the same terms that it offers PRC in doing business in Pakistan to India - the impact will be instant and dramatic and to the benefit of Pakistan and good will between India and Pakistan relationship. It might be a surprise to Pakistan.

do you think russia will try to deal more with PRC to get reaction from India compared to dealing with Pakistan - hence the best possibility of anything Russian related coming to Pakistan would be by way of PRC - like North Korea these days. hence with Mi-35 there must be something cooking more with PRC behind this deal. also the paki establishment must be trying to push PRC to get Russia to supply some goods to itself.

also do you think the deals in place between russia and india will allow the status quo to continue for at least the medium term. there are some huge big ticket items being done between Russia and India and there might be even more after the russian president visits.

india wants that the russia defense industry upgrade. does Russia want to jeopardize a relationship where someone is bona fide and genuine in advise and consultation ** that takes a very long time to nurture and establish especially in the world these days. India only needs to say three words to Russia if they ever ask India opinion "we trust you".

i think america wants to replace russia in india. but america has a long way to go and also do they have the will and leadership is question. its not a 10 year mission and by dealing with certain individuals.

america policy i believe will be more principled in the future and they will support nations that have similar principles. thats the expectation and anticipation. also i also believe India will benefit from USA discord and objectives with respect to Pakistan and PRC. The only thing that standing in the way of greater India and USA relationship is Russia. but i think that can be dealt with especially with PRC being on the "eastern" side and not north, west and south and even central. greater co-operation between USA and India on the eastern side as a "demonstration".

i also believe Russia will allow this to occur since it will boost its defence sales to PRC and also allow India to acclimatize modern war-weapons and techniques that can be used in knowledge management in the future - refer to the "bona fide". USA will be willing to do this since it will fit in with a more principle approach to its relations especially to East Asia that fits in like engagement ring to a pretty fiance and discord with paki and prc and strengthening japan and also the confidence in their defense industry that they would like to out compete russia in the future in india.

But the items standing in between a closer and more intimate Pakistan and Russia relationship is NOT India. Its Pakistan itself.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

pakistan lied about OBL to america.
.
pakistan also hosted many terrorist which were both america.
.
hence there was a turnaround in america pakistan relationship. Cause pakistan never supported america against terrorism.
.
on other hand india always supported russia even in its recent move to take crimea, india supported it. So there won't gonna be any turnaround in this relationship

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

@pmaitra, your views please.

All speculation.

Why should one have to bias one's search by googling BRIC + Indonesia? Why not BRIC + Papua New Guinea?

All one needs to do is google BRICS.

 

[Neo]

thanks for responding also you express clearly. but its grim and also a lesson on how relations can do such a huge turnaround between one time close acquaintances. your expression of usa and paki relations is to the point and also adverse to one another especially with the "final nail" being implanted. i am not sure if that advocates it self to pakistan and russia relationship and if the "final nail" to that particular relationship can be pulled out just because there is pain in another relationship.

i believe pakistan also ought to be a little cautious in taking advise from america and nato and even anyone these days since a lot of its positions and actions impact its sovereignty and international relations and application and understanding of international laws. refer to drones and even abottabad and even raymond davis.

you seem to already downplay that su-35 will be bought by paki army. what about mi-35. how much and many are pakis thinking of getting.

can Pakistan also afford to get involved in Afghanistan in economic terms and structural impact on it self. remember the PRC does not stand by nations that make puerile decisions (refer to Kargil and even more recently to abbottabad). such instance in PRC and Pakistan relationship must be like a boy friend that gets caught with a affair by a girlfriend (its embarrassing and wrong but not futile compared to if it was husband and wife). PRC and Pakistan are like boyfriend and girlfriend that have good intimacy but its not like husband and wife. PRC has signified many times that Pakistan is not "wife" material.

i also think the current paki leadership with its exploration (some say "brain-storming" foreign policy) of seeking new and other avenues to enhance pakistan relations with others are coming to realize that PRC is not trustworthy and worth the "intimacy" and it might be worth to get closer to India at least economically. watching PRC make trips to India and also watching PRC grow without acknowledgment to Yaha Khan and AQ Khan is wrong.

If Pakistan offers the same terms that it offers PRC in doing business in Pakistan to India - the impact will be instant and dramatic and to the benefit of Pakistan and good will between India and Pakistan relationship. It might be a surprise to Pakistan.

do you think russia will try to deal more with PRC to get reaction from India compared to dealing with Pakistan - hence the best possibility of anything Russian related coming to Pakistan would be by way of PRC - like North Korea these days. hence with Mi-35 there must be something cooking more with PRC behind this deal. also the paki establishment must be trying to push PRC to get Russia to supply some goods to itself.

also do you think the deals in place between russia and india will allow the status quo to continue for at least the medium term. there are some huge big ticket items being done between Russia and India and there might be even more after the russian president visits.

india wants that the russia defense industry upgrade. does Russia want to jeopardize a relationship where someone is bona fide and genuine in advise and consultation ** that takes a very long time to nurture and establish especially in the world these days. India only needs to say three words to Russia if they ever ask India opinion "we trust you".

i think america wants to replace russia in india. but america has a long way to go and also do they have the will and leadership is question. its not a 10 year mission and by dealing with certain individuals.

america policy i believe will be more principled in the future and they will support nations that have similar principles. thats the expectation and anticipation. also i also believe India will benefit from USA discord and objectives with respect to Pakistan and PRC. The only thing that standing in the way of greater India and USA relationship is Russia. but i think that can be dealt with especially with PRC being on the "eastern" side and not north, west and south and even central. greater co-operation between USA and India on the eastern side as a "demonstration".

i also believe Russia will allow this to occur since it will boost its defence sales to PRC and also allow India to acclimatize modern war-weapons and techniques that can be used in knowledge management in the future - refer to the "bona fide". USA will be willing to do this since it will fit in with a more principle approach to its relations especially to East Asia that fits in like engagement ring to a pretty fiance and discord with paki and prc and strengthening japan and also the confidence in their defense industry that they would like to out compete russia in the future in india.

But the items standing in between a closer and more intimate Pakistan and Russia relationship is NOT India. Its Pakistan itself.

Excellent post with some very interrsting points and.questions. Will try to reply point by point asap.
Bear with me.

 

[prohumanity]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Neo...Mia...what la la land you are living in? Paki is going broke with each passing day. Foreign debt is mounting and Paki rupee sells 100 to 1 dollar.
Now, these terrorists which Paki military created for last 20 years.. are going to suck the last drop of blood out of Paki economy.
You are dreaming of buying SU-35 which costs 70-80 million a piece. Where is the money? Last time I checked, Paki banks did not have any ruppe left...only debt, debt and more debt. Russia is not a charity club and will not give you any Sukhois without cash payment. Just keep dreaming and imagining. A broke nation trying to have an arms race with 12 times bigger economy....will lead to hunger, homelessness and disease and pain in Paki.
Come to senses if want to feed 180 million hungry Pakis. Your uncle in Riyadh and your sugar daddy in Washington are all fed up and does not want to see your begging bowl anymore.
The way things are going in Paki...don't be surprised if by 2018...you have Balochistan, Sindh republic, Punjabland and Paktunba Islamic republic.....and all trying to buy some outdated ,used F-16s with little rupees left in their turbans. And the Sharia law...women in Burkas sitting in homes..and .economy going back to 18th century opium growing.
Of course, the four pieces of Paki might order different color Burkas for their women. Are you ready for these Sharia Lands?. Stoning to death for having romance..100 lashes for drinking a can of beer...chopping of hands for stealing pencil....Are you really ready for all this...Neo...?

 

[Neo]

Neo...Mia...what la la land you are living in? Paki is going broke with each passing day. Foreign debt is mounting and Paki rupee sells 100 to 1 dollar.
Now, these terrorists which Paki military created for last 20 years.. are going to suck the last drop of blood out of Paki economy.
You are dreaming of buying SU-35 which costs 70-80 million a piece. Where is the money? Last time I checked, Paki banks did not have any ruppe left...only debt, debt and more debt. Russia is not a charity club and will not give you any Sukhois without cash payment. Just keep dreaming and imagining. A broke nation trying to have an arms race with 12 times bigger economy....will lead to hunger, homelessness and disease and pain in Paki.
Come to senses if want to feed 180 million hungry Pakis. Your uncle in Riyadh and your sugar daddy in Washington are all fed up and does not want to see your begging bowl anymore.
The way things are going in Paki...don't be surprised if by 2018...you have Balochistan, Sindh republic, Punjabland and Paktunba Islamic republic.....and all trying to buy some outdated ,used F-16s with little rupees left in their turbans. And the Sharia law...women in Burkas sitting in homes..and .economy going back to 18th century opium growing.
Of course, the four pieces of Paki might order different color Burkas for their women. Are you ready for these Sharia Lands?. Stoning to death for having romance..100 lashes for drinking a can of beer...chopping of hands for stealing pencil....Are you really ready for all this...Neo...?

Where did I say we are buying Su-35???

 

[ladder]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Where did I say we are buying Su-35???

PAF is looking for several toys in Russia.
A team will leave soon for Russia to evaluate Su-35.
Earlier in late nineties the Su-27 was also evaluated by PAF but it never materlialised and PAF ordered 61 F-16's.

I wonder if China is pushing for this deal for Pakistan Navy. Interesting development.

Russians want to enter a whatl would be a multi billion market witin.a decade or so, reasons do not matter as.long as they earn money.

Su-27 was already offered and evaluated to Pakistan ten years ago but the PAF turned it down. It will be a different case with the $80 million Su-35 which is a true 4.5 gen fighter. PAF/PN ciuld easily afford a squadron in 3-4 years.

We don't need PAK-FA. PAF will be the launch export customer of chinese stealth.

I think the above quotes would suffice.

 

[Neo]

I think the above quotes would suffice.

Does it say we are buying them?

 

[ladder]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Does it say we are buying them?

We know you are in no position to say that. Only NS can give credible answer.

But, those highlighted parts of your post says exactly what you meant.

Do you think posters here are playing "Kya aap panchvi pass se tez hain?"

 

[Neo]

We know you are in no position to say that. Only NS can give credible answer.

But, those highlighted parts of your post says exactly what you meant.

Do you think posters here are playing "Kya aap panchvi pass se tez hain?"

I stated clearly that a PAF team will evaluate the Su-35, its a normal practice as we have evaluated Su-27,J-11, Mirage-2000, Gripen, Typhoon and other platforms in past.

Even if it met PAF' standards (ASR), it will be a longway to go through political, diplomatic and financial negotiations before it can be ordered.
My take on this is atleast 4 years.

Su-35 is a high maintenance aircraft, serviceablity therefor is low (60-70%) which.means that atleast two squadrons would be requirwd.

 

[ladder]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

I stated clearly that a PAF team will evaluate the Su-35, its a normal practice as we have evaluated Su-27,J-11, Mirage-2000, Gripen, Typhoon and other platforms in past.

Even if it met PAF' standards (ASR), it will be a longway to go through political, diplomatic and financial negotiations before it can be ordered.
My take on this is atleast 4 years.

Su-35 is a high maintenance aircraft, serviceablity therefor is low (60-70%) which.means that atleast two squadrons would be requirwd.

And the poster @prohumanity, to whom you have replied, also never indicated that you were buying, he mentions dreaming.

You are dreaming of buying SU-35 which costs 70-80 million a piece. Where is the money? Last time I checked, Paki banks did not have any ruppe left...only debt, debt and more debt. Russia is not a charity club and will not give you any Sukhois without cash payment.

Does he say you are buying it today?

So, it was your faulty comprehension at work to ask him.

Where did I say we are buying Su-35???

While he was questioning the merit in your intent, which you clearly had mentioned, in buying them.

 

[Neo]

And the poster @prohumanity, to whom you have replied, also never indicated that you were buying, he mentions dreaming.

Does he say you are buying it today?

So, it was your faulty comprehension at work to ask him.

While he was questioning the merit in your intent, which you clearly had mentioned, in buying them.

It is the way the question was asked, or was it a question at all? No one is dreaming of buying anything and if you have been paying attention at all to me, you must have noticed that I am a pragmatic person and don't post bs.

It's not me who has a comprehansion problem but its the arrogant and cocky and patronising attitude of most of the posters here that ruins the debate.

Su-35 will be evaluated and may or may not be purchased. It is all speculation. I don't need a lecture in finances or anything else.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

can any one give a link about evaluation of su35? @Neo can you? If no, then this all are flat talks....

 

[Neo]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

When its published you will have your link.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

When its published you will have your link.

indian team leaving for evaluating f22 raptor.

 

[Neo]

indian team leaving for evaluating f22 raptor.

Good for you. Try to get starship Enterprise as well.

 

[Apollyon]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Pakis will be evaluating Su-35 in the same way they evaluated F-18, Rafale, EF and Grippen and finally decided in favour of 'indigenous' FC-1 .
You'll see before Su-35 in PAF/PN colours. These bankrupt Pakis know that they have to pay for Russian hardware, right ? It's not like buying American weapons on aid money and Chinese weapons on Soft-Loans (and Pakis don't even have cash to pay installment).

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Asian Defence News: Pakistan Army North Waziristan campaign updates
.
this link says 'coward' pakistani army surrenders to terrorists of waziristan
.
so even having some good tanks, they lose to terrorists, wonder how can they operate mi35?