RFP issued for India navy amphibious vessels (LHD or LPD type)

Adioz

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Wasp or America have a sense if u have F-35B (or some old AV-8 Harrier or another VSTOL aircraft) and the ship is deployed for months, otherwise a pure LHD 20,000 tons ship like the Mistral is unbeatable.

America and Wasp class have a complement of 1050/1250 people, America class has 5 milions liter of JP-5 (aviation fuel) mainly for her AV-8 now (and F-35B in future... the Italian light carrier Cavour with 12 AV-8 and 12 medium helos with 1.5 milion liter of JP-5 (and relative weapons) has a endurance in combat for 20/30 days)... the Mistral class has a complement of 177 people... India (as Italy or Japan) have 0 (ZERO) overseas deployment and 0 (ZERO) overseas territories and 0 (ZERO) overseas interests.

India navy have the logistic chain for support the landing of 2000 men from a 40,000 ton LHD?

For India, Italy, Japan the on board naval aviation is mainly for fleet protection... India have the big problem that dont have VSTOL as F-35B so the minimum size of a carrier is around 40,000 tons, but that its all.

If India have access to the F-35B probable the best solution is a fleet of 4-5 LHA/LHD 30,000 ton (40-50 F-35B on board) double use similar to italian LHA + the 2 already build carriers... or a fleet of 3 carrier 40,000/60,000 tons and 3-4 LHD/LPD around 20,000/25,000 tons... there are no space for 40,000 tons LHD.
The first thing we need to consider is the fact that Indian Army plans to raise an entire corps for Amphibious warfare. Currently it only has one brigade tasked for such missions. Considering the LHDs (Landing Helicopter Docks).......no, now that they are in the 40,000 tons range, they are more likely to be LHAs (Landing Helicopter Assault). So considering these accretions in size of the amphibious landing force, even these 4 LHAs will not be able to carry an entire corps sized formation within them.
But wait, why is Indian Navy seeking these LHAs under the title "Multi-Role Support Vessel"?
This can only mean that they do not plan to create ARGs (Amphibious Ready Groups) centered around these vessels, rather they will attach them to existing CVBGs (Carrier Battle Groups). This makes sense because Indian Navy does not have the requisite number of destroyers and frigates to be able to field these in separate ARGs. Hence we can conclude that these ships are not planned to carry any VTOL(Vertical Take-off and Landing) fighter jet. The fighter cover will instead be provided by the fleet carrier. The large deck will be utilised for a greater helicopter force that will enable a bigger helicopter assault task force.

40000 tons is specified in Naval RFP, not my wishlist. I too don't understand the rationale behind it, but that's what it is.

PS: India still operates British Sea Harriers.
I agree, it does not seem rational with the number of destroyers and cruisers we have. But these ships are most likely to be attached to an existing fleet rather than have a new fleet centered around them.
British Sea Harriers are on their last legs. Rather they are crawling on all fours and begging retirement. They will be retired next year with R22.
 

syncro

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The Juan Carlos is a low price ferry, non a military ship.
has only 2 x 11 MW pods as propulsion (and only one TAG 20 MW + 2 diesel for 8 MW)...Italian LHA has 100 MW onboard and make the same 20 knots with only the 20 MW diesel... and serious navies dont use pods for LHD (olny the french, spaniards) ;)
 

lookieloo

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for me, best ship for Indian Navy is.....

even Australian Navy is buying this babies ;)
So are the Turks, which will make for 5 ships in 3 different navies (and I wouldn't be surprised if there are other customers soon). That makes it the world's most popular class of carrier/LHD.
 

kstriya

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The first thing we need to consider is the fact that Indian Army plans to raise an entire corps for Amphibious warfare. Currently it only has one brigade tasked for such missions. Considering the LHDs (Landing Helicopter Docks).......no, now that they are in the 40,000 tons range, they are more likely to be LHAs (Landing Helicopter Assault). So considering these accretions in size of the amphibious landing force, even these 4 LHAs will not be able to carry an entire corps sized formation within them.
But wait, why is Indian Navy seeking these LHAs under the title "Multi-Role Support Vessel"?
This can only mean that they do not plan to create ARGs (Amphibious Ready Groups) centered around these vessels, rather they will attach them to existing CVBGs (Carrier Battle Groups). This makes sense because Indian Navy does not have the requisite number of destroyers and frigates to be able to field these in separate ARGs. Hence we can conclude that these ships are not planned to carry any VTOL(Vertical Take-off and Landing) fighter jet. The fighter cover will instead be provided by the fleet carrier. The large deck will be utilised for a greater helicopter force that will enable a bigger helicopter assault task force.


I agree, it does not seem rational with the number of destroyers and cruisers we have. But these ships are most likely to be attached to an existing fleet rather than have a new fleet centered around them.
British Sea Harriers are on their last legs. Rather they are crawling on all fours and begging retirement. They will be retired next year with R22.
We can have 3 to 5 40k tonnage vessels which are hybrid like comes with a short take off ski jump like Vikrant class with a squadron of naval LCA's and as per demand get converted into an helicopter landing dock with LCH's. A bigger vessel should accommodate all these machines with space for a battalion troops. We do not need a CBG format but few support ships do accompany LHD/LDP.
 

tarunraju

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Something like Juan Carlos-class looks simple enough for Indian shipyards to design and build.
 

Immanuel

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The Juan Carlos is a low price ferry, non a military ship.
has only 2 x 11 MW pods as propulsion (and only one TAG 20 MW + 2 diesel for 8 MW)...Italian LHA has 100 MW onboard and make the same 20 knots with only the 20 MW diesel... and serious navies dont use pods for LHD (olny the french, spaniards) ;)
The Juan-Carlos carries more, is available now and can be customized plenty. Indian Navy version will probably fitted with Barak-1, Barak-ER Naval SAMs, AK-130 or Naval Skyshield CIWS. As for the F-35B, it will be acquired eventually by the IN. IN loves its Harriers and F-35B will definitely be on the cards post FOC. Besides, the 1st ship will only be ready around 2022, so we have time for the F-35B order.
 

Adioz

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We can have 3 to 5 40k tonnage vessels which are hybrid like comes with a short take off ski jump like Vikrant class with a squadron of naval LCA's and as per demand get converted into an helicopter landing dock with LCH's. A bigger vessel should accommodate all these machines with space for a battalion troops. We do not need a CBG format but few support ships do accompany LHD/LDP.
The navy ordered 4 LHAs => it needs only 4 of them.
A hybrid system (ski-jump on LHA) is something the Navy does not desire. It would be like having 5 dedicated aircraft carriers + 4 Hybrid carriers (LHAs), which looks just as ambitious as it is. With the limited number of escorts for these many aircraft carriers, they will have to club the LHAs with a dedicated aircraft carrier which would be able to provide plenty of air support. The deck space on the LHAs is better utilised by having Helicopters or maybe even the Ospreys. Since LHAs are not expected to move without air cover by a CVBG, an LHA does not need its own separate fighter squadron. To be a viable LHA, the ship will not be able to carry more than 6-8 fighters anyway (the remaining space will be occupied with helicopters).
Something like Juan Carlos-class looks simple enough for Indian shipyards to design and build.
I guess that with the successful launch of INS Vikrant, we can be a little bit ambitious and not just go for what we can already build.:lehappy:
The Juan-Carlos carries more, is available now and can be customized plenty. Indian Navy version will probably fitted with Barak-1, Barak-ER Naval SAMs, AK-130 or Naval Skyshield CIWS. As for the F-35B, it will be acquired eventually by the IN. IN loves its Harriers and F-35B will definitely be on the cards post FOC. Besides, the 1st ship will only be ready around 2022, so we have time for the F-35B order.
Juan Carlos is not an option if you want to serve a corps sized Indian Army formation with just 4 vessels. The Juan Carlos carries upto 1000 troops whereas a 40000 ton class USS Wasp carries 2200 troops. And if you really want to field a few fighter flights from these MRSVs (Multi-Role Support Vessels), Juan Carlos goes right out the window because F-35B is not really an option. Too damn expensive and not maneuverable enough. Not to mention the fact that its avionics are not compatible with Indian products and you will not waste resources on these changes, logistics and familiarization just to induct a single squadron of the VTOL aircraft to be fielded from LHAs that will still require air cover from a dedicated aircraft carrier. :bplease:



Instead of fielding more fighter aircraft from the LHAs, the IN should field more helicopters for ASW and AEW&C duties.
 
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kstriya

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We will need small CBG's for finishing the so called string of pearls and probably 5 full fledged CBG's to take on the Chinese in south china sea and indian ocean. Small CBG could be a hybrid LHA/LPD with a small air arm flexible in nature as per mission demand. Locally made naval LCA are small and cheap so a ski jump vessel is the only option. A 40k Vikrant. Class LHA/LPD should be considered as we will be building the Vishal class carriers. Experience in building the Vikrant class can be of great help with input from a JV partner. This way we can be a truly expeditionary naval power. Awecs and anti sub ops helps or platforms are part of any CBG small or big.
 

Yusuf

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Buying anything big from Spain makes no sense even if it's good. No strategic benefit to leverage


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kstriya

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Buying anything big from Spain makes no sense even if it's good. No strategic benefit to leverage


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I think Indian navy should not go for Juan Carlos class but have a JV for technology assistance to build a Vikrant class LHD/LPD. We have resource constraints and cannot do with bulk vessels doing a particular mission instead doing multiple missions.
 

kstriya

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http://alert5.com/2015/10/23/flight-trials-of-australian-army-ch-47d-with-hmas-canberra/

The Aussie ship has been busy with Chinook trials on board, pretty cool. Perhaps the IN can buy Chinooks too for its Naval brigades with Boeing planning on setting up a line in India for the Chinook or Apaches. Juan Carlos makes more sense by the day.
I like the Juan Carlos class as its a hybrid vessel which can launch few fighter aircraft for sanitizing the area before troops embarking on coast but I think its displacement is very less instead we should go in for a 40k + class of vessel. We have experience in building the Vikrant class which is a 45k ton vessel, we can have a JV with the Spanish shipyard for technology input and build a world-class hybrid vessel at least 5 in number.
 

uoftotaku

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@syncro Who says pod propulsion is't a serious option? In fact if you knew anything about naval design and how a LPD / LPH type vessel has to be set up you would agree wholeheartedly that pod propulsion is a superior option to traditional screws!

The days of unreliable pods are long gone. Today pods are reliable, powerful and widely used. Yes they are comparatively expensive, but they are well worth the effort. Look at the 3 primary users of pod propulsion in the modern civilian market: Cruise Ships, Offshore Support Vessels, ultra high spec Ice Class vessels. All these types of vessels very much require reliability, toughness and maneuverability which pods provide.

For an LPH / LPD, the vessel has a floodable "well deck". In order for this well deck to be used the ship requires a large concentration of water ballast tanks in the rear 40% of the hull which can be weighed down to heel over the ship and flood the well deck. The positioning of these ballast tanks by default gets in the way of traditional prop shafts, creating design headaches and inefficiencies ( the shafts have to necessarily very very long ). Use of pods gets rid of this problem completely as the electro-hydraulic drive machinery of the pod occupies very min amount of actual space on the ship.

Use of pods also gives the vessel much needed advantage in maneuverability especially important when conducting close to shore landing ops. A vessel with traditional screws requires a large number of secondary bow and stern mounted tunnel thrusters to keep itself steady or make precise changes in orientation. Pod equipped ships can do so at will with only a bow thruster as the pod itself has 360 deg turn capability.
 

WolfPack86

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Juan Carlos can carry 1000 soldiers and 46 tanks it will be effective amphibious assault ship.
L&T had tied up with Spain's Navantia. 4 ships of this class is enough for us.
 

blueblood

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Buying anything big from Spain makes no sense even if it's good. No strategic benefit to leverage


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Actually Spain makes perfect sense. Spain is not as big a player in Europe's defence politics and with its economy down the drain, makes TOT and pricing issues more palpable unlike the French or the Italians.

With the confirmation of C-295 acquisition (Spanish CASA is the primary contractor) ball is already rolling.
 

The enlightened

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Actually Spain makes perfect sense. Spain is not as big a player in Europe's defence politics and with its economy down the drain, makes TOT and pricing issues more palpable unlike the French or the Italians.

With the confirmation of C-295 acquisition (Spanish CASA is the primary contractor) ball is already rolling.
Whatever happened to the Spaniards offer of buying our Avros in return C-295 contract
 

kstriya

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The Case for Pocket Aircraft Carriers for Indian Navy

Published November 4, 2015 | By admin


SOURCE: JOHANAN COLLINS / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG





Following the defeat of Imperial Germany during the First World War, the Triple Entity spearheaded by a vengeful France enforced humiliating limits on the number and size of the ships the German navy could operate. Any replacement ships that the German navy could induct had to displace less than 10,000 tons. When compared to the 35,000 ton leviathans that the great powers could build, this stung the Germans.

The German Navy worked around the Treaty of Versailles limitations by design three pocket battleships. These ships could outgun a heavy cruiser and outrun a battleship, in short they were faster than anything more powerful and more powerful than anything faster. They were the Deutschland class which consisted of the Deutschland, Admiral Scheer and Admiral Graf Spee. They displaced between 10,770 tons to 12,540 tons and had a heavy armament of six 11 inch main guns.

The Indian Navy plans to build and induct four Landing Helicopter Docks (LHD) as multirole vessels. These ships would have a length between 200 meters and 230 meters and a gross tonnage of 40,000 tons. This makes this class of vessels slightly smaller than INS Vikramaditya at 45,500 tons and the new INS Vikrant at 40,000 tons. These LHD’s are actually a lot larger than the old carriers INS Vikrant and INS Viraat. INS Vikrant weighed in at 19,500 tons with a length of 213 meters while INS Viraat weighed in at 28,700 tons with a length of 226.5 meters. The LHD’s will have a well dock for amphibious operations. These LHD’s are expected to have a carriage of combat vehicles on one or more decks and embark troops and tanks. This class of ships are expected to carry ten heavy helicopters in the range of 35 tons. The contenders for the contract are, France’s Mistral class, Spain’s Juan Carlos class, South Korea’s Dokodo class and Italy’s Multi-function Ship.





The concept of operating LHD’s has gained popularity over the globe. Japan, South Korea, China, Italy, England, Spain, France, Russia, Algeria, Australia and the USA all operate or are in the process of inducting LHD’s. The Australian Canberra class is based on Spain’s Juan Carlos Multifunction ship. This ship is a true multifunction ship. These ships are able to operate fixed winged aircraft like the Harrier and the F35B due to a presence of a sky jump. They are also capable of conducting amphibious operations by embarking and disembarking troops and tanks.

LHD’s by nature are useful but have a short offensive capability due to their main weapons being the helicopters they embark. In order to increase the offensive punch of Indian Navy, India should convert the LHD’s into pocket carriers like the Juan Carlos class. The Indian Navy should embark the LCA Tejas (Navy) on the LHD’s. The Tejas is a lightweight fighter of 15.5 tons which would make it one of the lightest shipborne fighters second only to the Harrier which weighs in at 14 tons. The Harrier is on the verge of being retired by all it user.

The only options for the Indian Naval “pocket aircraft carriers” apart from the LCA Navy would be the F35B and F35C which weigh in at 27.3 tons and 30 tons respectively. The LHD’s may be able to operate these aircraft but cost of acquiring them is prohibitive. The F35B costs 251 million USD for each aircraft, while the F35C costs 116 million USD for each aircraft. The cost of a squadron of 12 aircraft would cost 3.12 billion USD for the F35B, making the squadron more expensive than all four LHD’s which would cost 2.6 billion USD. A F35C squadron of 12 aircraft would cost 1.16 billion USD which would make the squadron cost come close to the cost of two LHD’s. The LCA Navy cost 31.1 million USD for each aircraft. The entire squadron would cost 373 million USD.

In order to safely operate fixed wing aircraft that are not STOVL or VSTOL aircraft carriers would need to have an angled flight deck. All current LHD designs are straight decked, which works perfectly fine for helicopters and Harriers which have traditionally flown off LHD’s. The LCA Navy is a STOBAR carrier and would need an angled flight deck for safe operations, much like traditional carriers being operated the world over. This would require a change in the design of the LHD’s to convert their straight deck flight decks to angled flight decks. This is possible as it has been done before by the US Navy for their Essex class carriers which were designed and built during the Second World War. A total of 14 ships were converted in the 1950’s.

From an operational view point the LHD’s are large targets with huge radar cross sections, which would act as a beacon to enemy radar. An enemy ship may be able to get close enough to fire a salvo of cruise missiles at the LHD, the protective ships will be able to retaliate and sink the enemy ship but there is still a chance that the enemy cruise missiles will hit the LHD. If the LHD has the LCA Navy embarked on it, the LCA will be able to discover the enemy ship before it gets into range because of its large flight radius when compared to shipborne helicopters. The LCA would also be able to attack the enemy ship with cruise missiles before the ship got into range.

The Indian Navy should redesign the LHD’s as true multifunctional vessels by making them pocket aircraft carriers before the shipyards start building the LHD’s and a rebuild would increase cost of the program. This would make the Indian Navy of the 2030’s a seven carrier navy and a true blue water navy and make the Indian Ocean India’s Ocean.

Going back to the days of the Second World War, the three pocket battleships punched way above their weight. They tied up considerable allied naval resources and forced the allies to use a lot of force to destroy them. In a similar way these pocket aircraft carriers would punch far above their weight and tie up considerable enemy forces in an event of a war.
 

kstriya

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I like the term pocket carrier but the author is overstating the weight of naval LCA.
 

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