Ramayana: Ancient Indian Epic

[Dovah]

Also, Ramayana unlike Mahabharata is set in "Sat Yug". Hence the emphasis on romanticized morals vs logic/realpolitik

Treta yug.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Treta yug.

Yup my bad. Edited.
I'm contrasting it with Mahabharata which is towards transition to Kali yug

 

[Dovah]

Yup my bad. Edited.
I'm contrasting it with Mahabharata which is towards transition to Kali yug

Exactly.

Examining both of these as standalone stories outside of the discourse of Vedic+ philosophical thought is futile, imho.

 

[nrj]

There is wisdom in upholding dharma. A king that modifies rules on the fly based on his personal feelings is not wise, but selfish. In the story, it was illustrated with the agnipareeksha dilemma. This is not a crack in the tale, but the point of it; consistent with the moral of the story since the beginning.

As if it was a divine written rule-based system making up the said 'dharma'. Nope, it was a mere cultural norm. Sacrificing marital duties to gain trust of people, that he would get to rule for thousand years to come? Doesn't sound right. And ofcourse there is question of how and when luv-lush got legitimacy even when she was impure.

The story is told in so many forms and so many versions, one can derive their own interpretation. And it doesn't necessarily congruent with interpretation of dharma, which really is one's own judgement.

 

[A chauhan]

Its popularly interpreted that Ram got influenced by a lowly dhobi's words on Sita, that he heard while going around the kingdom in disguise. How many people need to 'certify' on one's 'character'? How much is sufficient? As is rightly said, you can't satisfy everyone and keep everyone happy all the time. Sita's virtue was of no one's business except Ram's. Ram's flaw was he gave more importance to Rajdharm (praja's well-being) than his husbandly duty.

Well Ramrajya was about keeping everyone happy and it is known so, he achieved so by sacrificing his family's happiness and thus set high standards.

A King does everything to keep his people happy and if people are not happy with the Queen, it's his duty to deal with the same.

Sita literally got fed up of Ram's vacillating indecisive nature and took refuge back inside Mother Earth (she came out of Earth) to find some peace of mind. At the end she abandoned Ram unable to take any more insults.

Her predetermined age was over so she left for KsheerSagar. She also said to Ram while departing that she wants to be his wife in each and every birth, so no she was not fed up. Further whatever Bhagwan does is called "Leela".

Btw the Uttar Ramayan part is not the original part of Ramayan by Valmiki, it was later added as Prakshep which had totally different language tune and character. Ram who freed Stone turned Ahilya despite knowing that she had intercourse with non-husband, how can he insult his own wife without her own consent !!

 

[Aghore_King]

It is very much part of Valmiki Ramayan (Tulsi Ramayan ends with Ram's victorious return to Ayodya after Ravan-dahan). Valmiki himself brings Sita and her two sons back to palace for her final agni-pariksha as demanded by Ram, and instead, realising Ram will never be satisfied about her 'purity', she chooses to go back to Mother Earth and end her trials once and for all.

What does Sita really say in Valmiki’s Ramayana?

Every act of translation encodes something political, and, regardless of whether we are even aware of it, all translators are political commentators.

caravanmagazine.in

Reason why Lord Rama asked Sita to go through Agni Pariksha?

www.speakingtree.in

https://english.webdunia.com/articl...d-rama-really-disown-sita-116082600007_1.html

https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/...a-of-the-srimad-valmiki-ramayana-interpolated

Please see this, people are divided on this one, but i think evidence is enough to conclude that this chapter was added on later date

 

[Dovah]

As if said it was a divine written rule-based system making up the said 'dharma'. Nope, it was a mere cultural norm.

It is deeper than a cultural norm. Not upholding dharma can delegitimize a king. But these were not the commandments, in that you are right.

Sacrificing marital duties to gain trust of people, that he would get to rule for thousand years to come? Doesn't sound right

Ram never cared for a kingdom. This was established in the first act itself, when he sacrifices his kingdom to fulfill his dharma as a son. It is perfectly consistent that he would sacrfice his marital life, the one which he fought hard for, to fulfill the duties of a king. Those being following the norms of the kingdom he is about to rule. Still consistent with the moral of the story.

Btw, he could've ruled Lanka as well , by the right of conquest, he chose not to, so painting this incidence as Ram wanting to rule is not right.

And ofcourse there is question of how and when luv-lush got legitimacy even when she was impure.

Luv and Kush were born during the second exile. Their legitimacy was never in question.

The story is told in so many forms and so many versions, one can derive their own interpretation. And it doesn't necessarily congruent with interpretation of dharma, which really is one's own judgement.

Dharma isn't one's own judgement though, that is karma.

 

[Aghore_King]

https://english.webdunia.com/articl...d-rama-really-disown-sita-116082600007_1.html

https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/...a-of-the-srimad-valmiki-ramayana-interpolated

Please see this, people are divided on this one, but i think evidence is enough to conclude that this chapter was added on later date

Even Ramanand Sagar himself was doubtful about this one in the beginning, it was only after pressure from caste based political parties, he made it a part of the show..

 

[A chauhan]

https://english.webdunia.com/articl...d-rama-really-disown-sita-116082600007_1.html

https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/...a-of-the-srimad-valmiki-ramayana-interpolated

Please see this, people are divided on this one, but i think evidence is enough to conclude that this chapter was added on later date

In fact a whole study has been made by Camille Bulcke that Uttar Ramayan is not a part of Valmiki Ramayan.

 

[Aghore_King]

In fact a whole study has been made by Camille Bulcke that Uttar Ramayan is not a part of Valmiki Ramayan.

And then some people questions the existence of lord Ram itself, frankly people will believe what they want, we're just letting them know about the thoughts from the other side..

 

[nrj]

Ram never cared for a kingdom. This was established in the first act itself, when he sacrifices his kingdom to fulfill his dharma as a son. It is perfectly consistent that he would sacrfice his marital life, the one which he fought hard for, to fulfill the duties of a king. Those being following the norms of the kingdom he is about to rule. Still consistent with the moral of the story.

Btw, he could've ruled Lanka as well , by the right of conquest, he chose not to, so painting this incidence as Ram wanting to rule is not right.

This sacrifice for the greater good, or choosing a more important dharma (among marital or of a monarch); is a convenient argument and shaky at best. He had a kingdom he was about to rule, and also he finally had a united family to fulfill. It was a choice, little tough to pass it of as a correct judgement. Surely a debatable definition of dharma. Rama doesn't have to be right all the time, but it is expected of him by people. And that's why I say it is perceived as per one's own judgement. Some people would align his actions as sacred and obviously right or of fulfilling dharma, that would be their definition of righteousness. They won't pause to critic. Some people would make the distinction. One can say it was the service to people (while being a monarch ) he chose over the family duties. But Rama doesn't have to be right all the time, it should be acceptable that he would make mistakes.

In the masses, Ramayana is widely viewed from the principles of dualism. Its always right vs wrong, good vs bad, sur asurs. That is not the case with Mahabharta, it is considered to be of complex, posing and answering the virtue of questionable decisions by protagonists etc.

Luv and Kush were born during the second exile. Their legitimacy was never in question.

She was pregnant when forced into exile right.

Dharma isn't one's own judgement though, that is karma.

Its interlinked, Karma follows & is based on one's judgement IMO.

 

[Bhadra]

A_Chauhan,
the original Ramayana is written in sanskrit by Adikavi Valmiki. Many translations into other languages are present. Ramcharit Manas by Sri Tulsidas in Bhojpuri, BhaskaraRamayana by Sri Bhaskara in Telugu, KambaRamayana by Sri Kamaban.....etc. All ramayanas differ slightly in content. All of them were written by great devotees of Sri Rama. But the acknowledged original one is Sanskrit Ramayan written Valmiki. My intention to start this thread was to write briefly the story written by Valmiki. If you want to post about RamcharitManas, I request you to open another thread, so that there is no confusion.

EDIT: BTW, guys please give a review or if there is a mistake please point out. Also, if you want add something about valmiki ramyana, please do so. But do not bring in other topics, it deviates the thread and disturbs the continuity of story. Thanx.

I have a lot to correct in the story but very minor corrections but that matters a lot and affect a lot.

Here to begin with - Shri Ramcharitamanas of Gowsmaami Tulasidas is written in Avadhi and not Bhojpuri.

The name of the Kingdom of Shri Ram was/is Kosala (not Khosala).....

प्रबिसि नगर कीजे सब काजा। हृदयँ राखि कोसलपुर राजा॥

See further for Kosala -

Kosala - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kumata]

where can one source the original text of Balmiki Ramayan ..

 

[Bhadra]

where can one source the original text of Balmiki Ramayan ..

What is original and what is not is difficult to know but there a few methods followed such as the language style and pattern. Probably some original manuscript copy is lying with some Persian or Arab libraries or probably in Oriental Manuscript Library in London or some defendant of a lord in England. It is so agonizing that The Mlecchas burned and the British plundered India of almost every manuscript they could lay their hands on. Both wanted Indian civilization to vanish in oblivion.

I here quote some parts of Vivek Debroy's translation of Valmiki Ramayana -

".....Even within the Sanskrit Valmiki Ramayana, there are many different manuscripts. Between 1951 and 1975, the Oriental Institute, Baroda, produced a Critical Edition of the Valmiki Ramayana. This translation is based on that Critical Edition, published sequentially between 1958 and 1975. Producing a Critical Edition meant sifting through a large number of manuscripts of the Valmiki Ramayana. The editors had around 2000 manuscripts to work with. It is not that there were significant differences across the manuscripts and broadly, there was a Southern Recension (version) and a Northern one, the latter sub-divided into a North Western and a North Eastern one. The earliest of these written manuscripts dates to the 11th century CE. In passing, the language may have been Sanskrit, but the script wasn’t always devanagari. There were scripts like Sharada, Mewari, Maithili, Bengali, Telugu, Kannadi, Nandinagari, Grantha and Malayalam. The translation published by Penguin is based on the Baroda Critical Edition. To repeat what I have already said, some Ramayana stories and incidents we are familiar with, many not exist in this version. ...... "

One can see Bibek Debroys version and translation -

 

[Kumata]

What is original and what is not is difficult to know but there a few methods followed such as the language style and pattern. Probably some original manuscript copy is lying with some Persian or Arab libraries or probably in Oriental Manuscript Library in London or some defendant of a lord in England. It is so agonizing that The Mlecchas burned and the British plundered India of almost every manuscript they could lay their hands on. Both wanted Indian civilization to vanish in oblivion.

I here quote some parts of Vivek Debroy's translation of Valmiki Ramayana -

".....Even within the Sanskrit Valmiki Ramayana, there are many different manuscripts. Between 1951 and 1975, the Oriental Institute, Baroda, produced a Critical Edition of the Valmiki Ramayana. This translation is based on that Critical Edition, published sequentially between 1958 and 1975. Producing a Critical Edition meant sifting through a large number of manuscripts of the Valmiki Ramayana. The editors had around 2000 manuscripts to work with. It is not that there were significant differences across the manuscripts and broadly, there was a Southern Recension (version) and a Northern one, the latter sub-divided into a North Western and a North Eastern one. The earliest of these written manuscripts dates to the 11th century CE. In passing, the language may have been Sanskrit, but the script wasn’t always devanagari. There were scripts like Sharada, Mewari, Maithili, Bengali, Telugu, Kannadi, Nandinagari, Grantha and Malayalam. The translation published by Penguin is based on the Baroda Critical Edition. To repeat what I have already said, some Ramayana stories and incidents we are familiar with, many not exist in this version. ...... "

One can see Bibek Debroys version and translation -

I beleive you are referring to below.


I have the original geeta press Ramcharit manas ( Bought from Geeta press directly In delnni book far) but just realised that getting a copy of Balmiki ramayan is super tough .

 

[Bhadra]

Johnee u left about the concept of Durga and Bhairavi . It will nice if it is also there because it is the Bhairavi is the one who destroys the whole universe after the 4 yugas

Correct me if i am wrong

Agantrope, Lalitha devi has different rupas. Durga, Kalika, Sharada, Lakshmi, Rajarajeshwari...etc..etc. According to devi purana, she is supreme. Even Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma are under her. You know that it is very complex the whole thing. So, for now, lets stick with the simple things.

The Philosophical school that lays the primary stress of Shakti in various forms mainly the feminine forms and considers that ontologically as the primary source of existence is named "Skata" philosophy. In that Shakti is the original cause of creation, maintenance and destruction (Shristi - Sthiti - Samachar) and Bramha, Vishnu and Mahesh are created by her as the Gods responsible for those three basic functions.

The charita of Ram is essentially part of Vishnavite School of thoughts and philosophy as Shri Ram is an avatar of Vishnu in the line of "yada Yada Hi Dharsasy .... " logic.

Please do not mix up the two. Shakti and her manifestations are not main themes of Valmiki's Ramayana, Under Vaishnaivite and Shaivite thoughts and philosophies, the existence of Shakti is in the form of consorts of the main Devatas.

 

[indiatester]

Also, Ramayana unlike Mahabharata is set in "Treta Yug". Hence the emphasis on romanticized morals vs logic/realpolitik

Even in Mahabharata, Draupadi undergoes lots of insults and hardships . Its only Bheema who does justice to an extent. I had to skip reading those parts to my kids.

 

[Bhadra]

I beleive you are referring to below.


I have the original geeta press Ramcharit manas ( Bought from Geeta press directly In delnni book far) but just realised that getting a copy of Balmiki ramayan is super tough .

Firstly, it is "Shriramcharitamanas"..... we should not alter the little of the work. However, Valmiki Ramayana is also available with Geetapress. Go to your nearest big railway station platform and locate a Geeta press stall.

Or download here :

Valmiki Ramayan I Gita Press Gorakhpur : MahaMuni : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Indological Books , 'Valmiki Ramayan I - Gita Press Gorakhpur.pdf'

archive.org

Geeta Press Gorakhpur has actually done a yeoman's service in popularising and making available Indian Dharmic literature to Indian masses at very low prices equivalent to or more than the historical act of publishing the Bible in Europe. It has been singularly been responsible for freeing Hindu Dharmashastra from the clothes of Braman priests.

They do carry out their research and make efforts at originality but they have a limited reach due to limited resources. They are unlike a Bible society, have no political and govt patronage and modern Indian rich donors consider donating to them as anti- secularist. However, their literature imparts good grounding without bias or deliberately introduced impurities, So unless you are a research scholar go with Geeta Press Gorakhpur.

My salute to them for their noble efforts.

 

[Bhadra]

I beleive you are referring to below.


I have the original geeta press Ramcharit manas ( Bought from Geeta press directly In delnni book far) but just realised that getting a copy of Balmiki ramayan is super tough .

Not at all. Just Google and you will find many online versions.

 

[Indo-Aryan]

Read ancient texts with pinch of salt.
During compilation and recompilation over the millennium lots of stuff has got edited re-edited, included excluded and even lost from the original texts.


We had first major compilation in Gupta age and then we had 900 years of non Hindu rule ..... Who knows what else got changed back then.