Project-75I class SSK Submarines

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,551
Likes
16,991
Country flag
The Project 75 (I) for the next-gen submarine will be cleared by next year; a new plan for Minesweepers, says Navy Chief
The Process for the Project 75I for building next generation submarine will be through by the next year, says Navy Chief Admiral R Hari Kumar. He was addressing a press conference ahead of Navy Day. The Navy Chief also said that a timeline of 2047 has been set for making the force ‘Atmanirbhar’ (self-reliant).

Navy Chief responded to the Financial Express when asked about the capability gaps especially on the delays for crucial next generation submarine project—P-75(India). Since the project is yet to take off under the strategic partnership model, where does the P75I stand now? The major concern remains on the fuel cell air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, a stated requirement under the programme.

Navy Chief replied: “It is a complex process. It is under the strategic partnership model. It the new way of doing business where we want to develop capabilities on this with private players. So, there are a lot of challenges. So, there has been a little bit of delays. The Indian applicant companies and the OEMs who are joining with them had apprehensions which we have addressed.”

Highlighting the concerns over the technical ambiguity over the project, Navy Chief remarked: “It is the new area for the people involved in the procurement and the companies involved along with OEMs which are participating. So, these challenges are getting addressed.” Clarified Navy Chief Admiral R Hari. He further added: “They [OEMs] had number of queries and those queries were duly processed. There concerns were addressed. We are hopeful now it will go forward in a few months.”

As a major initiative, Ministry of Defence (MoD) issued Request for Proposal (RFP) for the first acquisition programme under the Strategic Partnership Model for construction of six AIP fitted Conventional Submarines named Project 75(India) [P-75(I)] for the Indian Navy, on July 20, 2021. The RFP was issued to shortlisted Strategic Partners (SPs) or Indian Applicant Companies for the project viz, Mazagaon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) and Larsen & Tubro (L&T). The project cost is over Rs 40,000 crore.

The ambitious Project-75(I) puts forth the plan for the indigenous construction of six modern conventional submarines (including associated shore support, Engineering Support Package, training and spares package) with contemporary equipment, weapons & sensors including Fuel-Cell based AIP (Air Independent Propulsion Plant), advanced torpedoes, modern missiles and state of the art countermeasure systems.

As project, P75I would further provide a major boost to the indigenous design and construction capability of submarines in India, in addition to bringing in the latest submarine design and technologies as part of the project.
 

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,551
Likes
16,991
Country flag
Indian Navy is unlikely to drop plans to procure six next-gen Diesel-electric submarines under Project-75I even though it considering procuring 2-3 additional Kalvari class submarines owing due to delays in the Project-75I and due to the proposed retirement of Shishumar-class submarines by the turn of this decade.
France and Russia had opted out of Project-75I since both didn't have operational and tested Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) Systems.

The Indian navy considering dropping mandated fuel cell operational AIP clause so that more shipyard can send bid in tender. while South Korea and Germany met criteria. Germany is not keen to partcipiate stringtent TOT, liability clause and work.

To break deadlock navy willing to remove operational fuel cell based AIP(Air Independent Propulsion) so that more vendors can partcipitate but not ready compromised on TOT, liability clause and work.
 
Last edited:

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,551
Likes
16,991
Country flag
Russia Offers Joint Development Of Amur-1650 Like Submarine
Russia has offered to jointly develop with India a non-nuclear submarine based on the Russian Amur-1650 submarine after it stated that it would not be bidding for India’s ambitious Project 75 (India) or P-75I diesel submarine project.

The Deputy Director of the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, Vladimir Drozhzhov, said on the sidelines of the ongoing Aero India 2023 show that the development of this proposed submarine based on Amur 1650 will include a localization level of up to 80%.

This proposal comes when India is looking to sign an agreement to develop diesel-electric submarines under the P-75I this year. The country issued a Request for Proposal (RFP) to five foreign contenders, including Russia, in 2021.

According to the RFP, the six planned diesel-electric attack submarines are expected to include advanced capabilities such as Air-independent propulsion (AIP), Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR), Special operations forces (SOF), Anti-ship warfare (AShW), Anti-submarine warfare (ASW), Anti-surface warfare (ASuW), Land-attack capabilities, and other features.

However, the programme hangs in the balance after most foreign manufacturers that received the RFP, including Russia, decided against competing for the project. While proposing the co-development of the all-new sub, Drozhzhov acknowledged that Russia had backed out of Project 75I’s tender.

“Along with this, we offer our Indian partners a variant of cooperation on this topic, including the joint designing and production of a national non-nuclear submarine under the 75 (I) program based on an intergovernmental agreement,” the Russian official said.

“Taking into account our experience of working with the Indian side on other naval projects, localization of production during the implementation of the program for the construction of Project-75 (I) submarines based on the Russian platform Amur-1650 can be increased to 70-80%.”

Foreign contenders that received the RFP from India withdrew from the tender for two reasons – qualitative requirements with a particular emphasis on Lithium cell Air-Independent Propulsion and a strict liability clause that puts the obligation on the foreign partner for the submarines’ performance despite them being built in Indian shipyards.

Currently, Project 75I has only a single vendor, i.e., a South Korean company that is the only bidder offering a proven fuel cell air-independent propulsion (AIP) system.

Some reports earlier suggested that the project may even be shelved. However, the Navy Chief expressed the service’s commitment to the program before Navy day in December last year.

Several delays have already marred the project. Russia’s proposal, thus, comes at an opportune moment.

Russian Amur-1650 Submarine
Rosoboronexport describes the Amur 1650 as a diesel-electric submarine that belongs to a new generation of Russian non-nuclear submarines. According to the exporter, the vessel has been designed specially to destroy hostile navy surface combatants, transports, and submarines and lead reconnaissance parties.

Regardless of the weather, the Amur 1650 submarine can complete vital global missions. This is significant as India is looking to significantly augment its naval fleet to combat PLA Navy’s expanding presence in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).

The submarine is equipped with a powerful sonar system with low noise, high levels of automation, and the capacity to fire both torpedoes and the Club-S missile system. As per a report published in TASS in 2019, the submarine that is proposed to be jointly developed by India and Russia would also be equipped with BrahMos cruise missiles.

The submarine can carry anti-ship cruise missiles, adaptable deep-water torpedoes, and mines. It can attack enemy territory-wide terrestrial targets. The data required to launch missiles and torpedoes is created and fed into the submarine’s automated command information system.

The Amur 1650 submarine can have a fuel cell air-independent propulsion system installed, extending its underwater travel time by up to 20 days. The AIP is a core requirement of the diesel-attack submarine to be built under Project 75I and has led to most contenders withdrawing from the tender.

Further, an attack periscope with optical and video linkages (night vision included) and an optronic non-penetrating mast are incorporated into the periscope module of the submarine. The pole is also equipped with antennas for catching signals from satellite navigation systems and radars.

The GLONASS and GPS receivers in the navigation system allow for the precise determination of the submarine’s current location and the motion parameters required for safe navigation and the use of weapons.

A trailing antenna is part of the automated radio communication system and is used to receive secure command signals and data communications at depths of up to 100 meters.

Project 75I will take place under the strategic partnership model, and the capabilities will be developed in conjunction with domestic private players. India has stressed that it needs a higher level of indigenization, including in production.
 

Fatalis

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2022
Messages
1,435
Likes
9,856
Country flag

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,551
Likes
16,991
Country flag
INDIAN NAVY TO GET GERMAN SUBMARINES UNDER PROJECT 75I? HERE'S WHAT WE KNOW
The German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can offer joint production of Diesel-Electric submarines to the Indian Navy with Government-To-Government route on his visit to India this week, reported Economic Times.


The Indian Navy is on a hunt for acquiring six Diesel-Electric submarines under Project-75I at a cost of $5.6 billion.

These submarines will be made in India under the Strategic Partnership (SP) route with significant Transfer of Technology (ToT). The boats will come with Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) technology, as well.

The SP model requires foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) to partner with Indian Private companies to manufacture these products in India and offer them to Indian Armed Forces.

However, the project under the SP model is stuck due to tough technical and financial conditions.

Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) in the report has highlighted some challenges in the SP model.

One challenge the report identifies is the imposition of heavy liabilities on foreign OEMs for inefficiencies or delays on part of the Indian contractor.

According to the report, another condition — the inclusion of a sea-proven AIP — is a sticking point as well.

Only Germany’s TKMS has sea-proven AIP technology, while France and Russia have no functional submarines fitted with the AIP.

The South Korean shipyard, on the other hand, doesn’t have government clearances and they are believed to be pending, due to the shipyard facing a legal challenge from TKMS for copying their design, the report further said.

This could lead to a single vendor condition in the project, the report said.

One other challenge, the report revealed is the possibility of demerger of ThyssenKrupp from the TKMS group. ThyssenKrupp is believed to be leaving the entire shipbuilding industry.

The German Government may take a stake in TKMS if ThyssenKrupp gets out, the report said.
 

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,551
Likes
16,991
Country flag
GERMANY'S HDW MAY NOT HAVE A SMOOTH DIVE WITH RUSSIA PITCHING AMUR-1650 BASED SUBMARINE TO INDIA
Russia has offered to work together on the design and production of non-nuclear versions of submarines of this sort, which would be based on the Russian Amur-1650 concept


by Joseph P Chacko

India prioritises upgrading its submarine fleet in light of Pakistan’s naval aspirations and China’s increasingly assertive presence in the Indian Ocean and near the Strait of Malacca. Eleven of India’s sixteen conventional submarines are over 20 years old, and procedures must be revised to replace the ageing fleet. The Indian Navy’s submarine fleet, consisting of four HDW Type-209 [of German design and partially Indian manufacture] and seven Sindhughosh class submarines [of Russian design], is somewhat dated, despite the contribution from Scorpène class submarines of French Design. It has also returned the nuclear attack submarine [SSN] INS Chakra that it had leased to Russia for ten years.

Given these circumstances, New Delhi must also consider how it will be able to keep up with the expansion of the oceanic component of its deterrence, which are based on two nuclear ballistic missile submarines (SSBN), specifically the INS Arihant and INS Arighat [whose entry to service is anticipated this year].

Many decades ago, the Indian Navy kicked off the 75i project in order to expand its submarine fleet by six vessels. In general, the Indian Navy seeks larger subs than the Scorpene, capable of carrying cruise and anti-ship missiles and outfitted with an anaerobic propulsion system [AIP] to boost their autonomy in diving, an awful decision.

Practically every manufacturer expected to supply such submarines withdrew from consideration for this proposal request. They at least pretended to, anyway. As a result, the Japanese Kawasaki Heavy Industries and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries [Soryu class] and the Swedish Kockums [A26] announced that they would pass their turn, together with the Russian Rubin, which cited “technical reasons,” Naval Group, which had suggested a variation of its Shortfin Barracuda, and others.

The German ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems [TKMS] had already said that it was giving up after submitting the candidature of its Type 214 submarine, claiming “disagreements” on specific technical articles of the procedure— especially in regards to workloads, liabilities, and technology transfers.

But TKMS is now clearly back in the race, with only the Spanish Navantia and the South Korean Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering [DSME] left.

The German Chancellor Olaf Scholz is scheduled to visit India on February 25 and 26. One of the tasks of his visit would be to sign an agreement between the two governments for the collaborative building of six submarines. This is the assurance given by four officials from the Reuters news agency, including two Indians and two Germans close to the case.

The Indian Ministry of Defence source claimed Navantia’s offer was turned down upfront. Hence, TKMS and DSME would continue to compete. Chancellor Scholz was determined to rekindle commerce and defence relations, an Indian diplomatic representative said.

This is true even if it entails enabling technology transfers, especially regarding the AIP system, on which the Indian Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is now working, and even if it necessitates India to produce all submarines.

According to Reuters, Berlin has loosened its restrictions on transferring military hardware to India.

Given that the Type 214 submarine is scarcely larger than the Scorpene and cannot carry cruise missiles, it is uncertain whether it will fit the requirements of the Indian Navy. It is expected that TKMS may propose Type 216, which is an evolution of Type 214 and was designed for the Australian contract that the Naval Group won in 2016 with the Shortfin Barracuda.

Russian Offer

As the Indian Navy now huddles to iron out its unfortunate Request for Proposal, Russia has offered to work together on the design and production of non-nuclear versions of submarines of this sort, which would be based on the Russian Amur-1650 concept. The level of localisation of manufacturing in the programme execution based on the Russian platform Amur-1650 can be increased to 70 to 80 per cent if one considers Russia’s experience working with India on past naval projects.

The Russian plan has been reformulated to include design aspects and a larger indigenisation percentage, which New Delhi will examine closely.

Nevertheless, if one recalls correctly, the primary goal of the P-75i project was to acquire the Russian submarine. India was to design and construct a submarine in the future using the best of Western (P-75) and Eastern technologies (P-75i).

This matches New Delhi’s plan, which is to move beyond a hierarchical buyer-seller relationship and towards a co-development and co-production model.

Even DSME may find it difficult to provide India with design experience, and DSME submarines are versions of HDW designs and so technically not of an eastern design.
 

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,551
Likes
16,991
Country flag
Germany expected to present government-to-government proposal for sale of submarines to India
Germany is soon expected to present a proposal to India for the sale of advanced conventional submarines through the government-to-government route, it is learnt.

The Navy, which is staring at a dwindling sub-surface fleet, is looking to procure six advanced diesel-electric submarines under Project-75I estimated to cost over ₹45,000 crore. The project has been stuck for a while over technical issues.

A proposal for submarines through the G-to-G route is being prepared and would be presented to the Government of India soon,” diplomatic sources said.

A visit by German Defence Minister to India in the next few months is in the works, officials and diplomatic sources said, during which the proposal could be formally presented.

The issue also came up for discussion during the visit of German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in February, officials said.

In January 2020, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) shortlisted Mazgaon Docks Ltd. (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) as the Indian partners for the P-75 deal, the first to be processed under the strategic partnership model of the procurement procedure.

The five foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEM) are Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (South Korea), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), Rosoboronexport (Russia) and Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS, Germany).

The Request For Proposal (RFP) was originally issued in July 2021 to MDL and L&T with 12 weeks to respond and has since been extended several times, the latest being up to August 2023.

The project ran into rough weather, among other issues, over a specification that the submarine on offer should have an operational Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) module with an endurance of two weeks.

The OEMs also raised the issue of unlimited liability on them. Only Germany and South Korea technically meet this criteria, as reported by The Hindu earlier.

The DAC recently clarified a few issues, officials said. However, industry sources said concerns still remain. Recently, TKMS, which was in talks with L&T, decided to partner with MDL, while it is learnt that Daewoo has internal administrative issues, among others. Officials said due to this, it could end up being a single- vendor situation, stalling the entire process.

Officials had stated that once a selection was done, the deal had to be eventually processed through an Inter-Governmental Agreement, given the technical complexities involved.

The Navy has 16 conventional submarines in service — seven Russian Kilo-class submarines, four German-origin HDW submarines and five French Scorpene-class submarines.

The last and sixth Scorpene is expected to join service early next year. With the Kilos and the HDWs ageing, a Medium Refit-cum-Life Certification (MRLC) programme is under way to increase their life, but even that would not arrest the dwindling sub-surface fleet of the Navy.

An AIP module acts as a force multiplier as it enables conventional submarines to remain submerged for a longer duration, thereby increasing their endurance and reducing chances of detection.

An indigenously developed AIP module is set to installed on the Scorpene submarines as they go for refit from 2024 onwards.
 

flamemaster

New Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2023
Messages
3
Likes
3
Navy is Playing RFP RFP from past 15 year yet got no results they should know that oems could only offer the products they have extending deadlines will not make it change after all this year evaluation and after knowing non of the subs meet their demands they could have formed a jv with any foreign shipbuilders to get the desired sub but their seem no urgency of it Pakistan will soon get cutting edge subs from China by 2030 we will have to decommission atleast 8 subs, we should grab whatever offer Germany giving
 

MonaLazy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
1,320
Likes
7,897
cutting edge subs from China
😂

That is an oxymoron. Like a truthful liar.

Bhikaris are failing to secure supplies for even first-hand second-hand sub batteries for their Agostas. Should give an indication of their future trajectory.


 
Last edited:

Bombblast

New Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2022
Messages
2
Likes
1
Country flag
Navy is Playing RFP RFP from past 15 year yet got no results they should know that oems could only offer the products they have extending deadlines will not make it change after all this year evaluation and after knowing non of the subs meet their demands they could have formed a jv with any foreign shipbuilders to get the desired sub but their seem no urgency of it Pakistan will soon get cutting edge subs from China by 2030 we will have to decommission atleast 8 subs, we should grab whatever offer Germany giving
When we have scorpene line , why go for a completely new design . Why not opt for the DRDO indigenous sub offer.
Can someone please clarify.
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top