PAS 2011: India nears attack helicopter decision (AH-64D or the Mi-28NE)

[ace009]

I may be wrong, but Heavy attack Choppers can carry LOT more armament and Ammo. They can be deployed further, for longer and can provide better cover against Armor. They are also built like a tank, so they can take hits from AA guns and even RPGs, which increases their Survivability.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I may be wrong, but Heavy attack Choppers can carry LOT more armament and Ammo. They can be deployed further, for longer and can provide better cover against Armor. They are also built like a tank, so they can take hits from AA guns and even RPGs, which increases their Survivability.

Not RPGS, LCH too can withstand 23mm and 12.7mm hits all over, Plus it carry same amount of Weapons as Apache..

 

[Adux]

No, IAF loves it.........

Mi-26 are known as the hanger queens, are the least used airframes in the IAF helicopter division, they have the lowest uptimes, and are insanely expensive to run. it is the Mi-17's they love. They really love them

 

[Immanuel]

No, IAF loves it.........

Hanger queens, lots of probelms with spares and first day first hit helicopter, in heavy combat it wont last a minute. Its sooo big a target that throw a stone at the right spot and you just might knock it down. I dont see why Apache shouldnt be bought, the strings are just as easy to attach on engines or transport aircraft as well but iaf isn't concerned about buying american, Cbu-97 sfw, harpoons, c-17s, c-130j, p-8I, are all just as vulnerable to strings as the apache. The strings are more and more a non-relevant point, IAF has shown that it will buy whatever fits its needs best.

 

[Rahul M]

apache is a proven machine,but mi-28 not used in any majore conflict but 22 is very small number we nead at least 50-60 of that machine ,lah is a different catagory,it is not heavily armoured and its machine is not so powerfull like apache or mi-28.for transport chinook or ch-53 i think will be ideal

boss, LCH has the "highest" power to weight ratio of existing combat choppers. I don;t know how you got the idea its engine is not powerful. it is designed to operate at heights with combat load where the AH-64 finds hard to reach, leave alone fight.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Hanger queens, lots of probelms with spares and first day first hit helicopter, in heavy combat it wont last a minute. Its sooo big a target that throw a stone at the right spot and you just might knock it down. IAF has shown that it will buy whatever fits its needs best.

Mi-26 are known as the hanger queens, are the least used airframes in the IAF helicopter division, they have the lowest uptimes, and are insanely expensive to run. it is the Mi-17's they love. They really love them

I dont know abt hanger Queen, But i do know it is praised by IAF pilots in Chandigarh`s western command`s Officer mess..
" It mother of all Helos "

Its a Transport Helo not to be deployed in active combat zone, Chinook is something i can compare with MI-17-Vs but not MI-26, Their is nothing US have to compare with MI-26..

Yes, the spares are hard to find coz we have so few of them, Also its true abt expenses, But taking its uses in our doctrine that expense is least concerned, to supply commodities same as C-130 at high altitudes over a small space of just 50meter is what IA needs and IAF deliverers it..

 

[Rahul M]

the uptime of Mi-26 is abysmal but their capability is unique. they were instrumental in saving our a$$es in the sumdorong chu affair in the 80's against china. gave a good fright to PLA too ! if IAF wants to get the Mi-26 we have to have in depth maintenance facilities for them, THAT should be the offset. we can't afford to depend on russia for it.

 

[asianobserve]

Mi-26 are known as the hanger queens, are the least used airframes in the IAF helicopter division, they have the lowest uptimes, and are insanely expensive to run. it is the Mi-17's they love. They really love them

And they cannot multi-task. Mi26 is only good at 1 thing, lifting over sized loads. This is the job of a civilian heavy lift helicopter. For military purposes, a heavy lift helicopter must not only carry heavy loads inside or under sling, it must drop troops, insert them into combat zones, retrieve them under fire, retrieve Special Ops on rubber boats from rivers or coast, etc. I don't think the Mi26 can practically and reliably do these other important military tasks...

 

[ace009]

As I said elsewhere - the IA is stuck with Soviet strategies and systems. A specialized Helo for every purpose. A anti-infantry one, a heavy lift one, a anti-tank gunship etc etc. So what if the helo is a maintenance hog or if it cannot really multi-task. "Horses for courses" - that's what we need.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

As I said elsewhere - the IA is stuck with Soviet strategies and systems. A specialized Helo for every purpose. A anti-infantry one, a heavy lift one, a anti-tank gunship etc etc. So what if the helo is a maintenance hog or if it cannot really multi-task. "Horses for courses" - that's what we need.

And they cannot multi-task. Mi26 is only good at 1 thing, lifting over sized loads. This is the job of a civilian heavy lift helicopter. For military purposes, a heavy lift helicopter must not only carry heavy loads inside or under sling, it must drop troops, insert them into combat zones, retrieve them under fire, retrieve Special Ops on rubber boats from rivers or coast, etc. I don't think the Mi26 can practically and reliably do these other important military tasks...

Thats why IAF is purchasing MI-17-V

 

[Adux]

I dont know abt hanger Queen, But i do know it is praised by IAF pilots in Chandigarh`s western command`s Officer mess..
" It mother of all Helos "

Its a Transport Helo not to be deployed in active combat zone, Chinook is something i can compare with MI-17-Vs but not MI-26, Their is nothing US have to compare with MI-26..

Yes, the spares are hard to find coz we have so few of them, Also its true abt expenses, But taking its uses in our doctrine that expense is least concerned, to supply commodities same as C-130 at high altitudes over a small space of just 50meter is what IA needs and IAF deliverers it..

Kunal,

I will let it rest, It is the mother of all helo's, but it is a sick and lazy mother. as unique as the capability might be, the issue is that the capability cannot be used in the tempo we need. It is simple as that. Spares and Finances are nothing short of a nightmare. There are info about IAF's concern about it in the public as well as private domain. The Chinook's uptime offsets Mi-26's more tonnage capability.

 

[Adux]

As I said elsewhere - the IA is stuck with Soviet strategies and systems. A specialized Helo for every purpose. A anti-infantry one, a heavy lift one, a anti-tank gunship etc etc. So what if the helo is a maintenance hog or if it cannot really multi-task. "Horses for courses" - that's what we need.

IA is anything but a Soviet Strategy modeled force You are wrong there. Mi-26's has it advantages, but in the current scenario it is not needed and not worth it. Artillery Guns have become lighter, Helicopters more versatile, Logistics to our mountains established. Its time has come to pass like the MiG-25

 

[Immanuel]

Livefist: Boeing presentation to IAF comparing Chinook with Mi-26

nice comparison of both aircraft.

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ELEC_CAAS_MH-47_lg.jpg

http://www.mi-helicopter.ru/rus/img/user/43EF1E16.jpg

USA - Army Boeing CH-47F Chinook (07-08037) **Cockpit** | Flickr - Photo Sharing!



Mi-26T2 cockpit - Military Pictures - Air Force Army Navy Missiles Defense

 

[sandeepdg]

What about the Mi-46 that is slated to replace the Mi-26 ?

Mi-46+Brochure_Page_2.jpg (image)

 

[sob]

I would like the more knowledgeable members to educate me , why are we placing an overriding emphasis on HAL developing LCH, while there track record does not have anything to write about. And in comparison we are debunking Helicopters made by reputed manufacturers who have decades of experience of developing new helicopters and their new variants.

We have to encourage HAL but not a the cost of the nations security. I know from personal experience working with HAL on ALH how the system works and the kind of knowledge gained. Even after decades of working with Cheetah and Chetak helicopters they had to go back to the basics to develop that ALH and now the LCH is a different class of Helicopter altogether.

 

[sandeepdg]

And they cannot multi-task. Mi26 is only good at 1 thing, lifting over sized loads. This is the job of a civilian heavy lift helicopter

Mate, that is main purpose of the Mi-26 in IAF, for moving oversized loads. That's the reason it is based at Chandigarh to supply everything the Army needs in high altitude zones like Kargil and Siachen areas.

For military purposes, a heavy lift helicopter must not only carry heavy loads inside or under sling, it must drop troops, insert them into combat zones, retrieve them under fire, retrieve Special Ops on rubber boats from rivers or coast, etc. I don't think the Mi26 can practically and reliably do these other important military tasks...

The MI-26 can carry 90 troops as compared to 50-60 on the CH-47. But the other roles that you stated, it doesn't perform because of its massive size, which makes it impractical for combat roles. It was never built for that role either, it was mainly built for transporting heavy military and civil loads to remote and inaccessible areas.

For multirole operations, we are buying the Mi-17 V5. By the way, did you know that the MI-26 was twice used by American forces in Afghnistan to recover two CH-47s that went down in the mountains. No other helicopter in the world can do that !

Though, I agree that the CH-47 are much more versatile and efficient, although they carry less than half the load of an Mi-26, they have much lower operating costs and come with good and fast delivery schedules, and of course quality spares. The IAF certainly needs them, but I won't call it as a replacement for the Mi-26, because there isn't any.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I would like the more knowledgeable members to educate me , why are we placing an overriding emphasis on HAL developing LCH,

Coz of the Number of platform and Cheap and available spares..

LCH provides more than any attack-helo IA needs or IAF, LCH proving its worth like ALH, LCH is all we need, in gr8 numbers that is 200 of these machines..

And in comparison we are debunking Helicopters made by reputed manufacturers who have decades of experience of developing new helicopters and their new variants.

What is the use of these in so few numbers ?

The present competition is waste of money, except transport helos which can transport heavy loads at distant posts..

We have to encourage HAL but not a the cost of the nations security. I know from personal experience working with HAL on ALH how the system works and the kind of knowledge gained. Even after decades of working with Cheetah and Chetak helicopters they had to go back to the basics to develop that ALH and now the LCH is a different class of Helicopter altogether.

Re-Inventing the wheel concept ?

LCH is flying, And will be operational..

 

[Adux]

What people needs to ask, What is the most over-sized cargo Indian Army Requires, how often and what are its dimensions.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What is the most over-sized cargo Indian Army Requires, how often and what are its dimensions.

Commodities like Fuel, Ammo, Vehicles, Air-defense guns like L70, Light Arty at high altitudes, Heavy Motar, Some time BMPs, Men..
Lots more, list is endless..

In the competitive bidding process now underway for supplying up to 24 new-generation heavylift helicopters, Russia's Oboronprom JSC has offered the Mi-26 heavylift helicopter. Incidentally, the heavylift helicopter requirement has been broken down into two components, under which any bidder can offer to supply six heavylift helicopters to replace the existing six Mi-26Ts, plus another 16 heavy utility helicopters (for high-altitude aerial logistics) and another four of the same model that will be configured for high-altitude combat search-and-rescue. Boeing IDS is therefore offering the CH-47F Chinook and its HH-47 CSAR version, while AgustaWestland is offering the AW-101 (12 of which will shortly be ordered by the IAF for VIP transportation), and Sikorsky has just come in with the CH-53K. Although, Boeing IDS, Sikorsky and AgustaWestland have pitched their products to meet all three vertical airlift requirements, it is likely that in the end the competing bidders for the heavylift requirement will be restricted to the Mi-26 and CH-53K, while the battle to supply heavylift utility and high-altitude CSAR helicopters will be limited to the CH-47F/HH-47, and AW-101.--Prasun K. Sengupta

TRISHUL: Spotlight On The Mi-46 Heavylift Helicopter

 

[Adux]

Commodities like Fuel, Ammo, Vehicles, Air-defense guns like L70, Light Arty at high altitudes, Heavy Motar, Some time BMPs, Men..
Lots more, list is endless..



TRISHUL: Spotlight On The Mi-46 Heavylift Helicopter

Question, what is the tonnage done on one trip, what are the dimensions of that trip, the all above can be done byt Chinook more efficiently and cheaply. If 99% of all trips are below 12,000 tonnes, and in a dimension which chinook can accomdate, is there a need of a fleet of helicopters, which gives you less than 30% uptime at considerable cost?