Pakistan approves transfer of Gwadar port from Singapore to China

[amoy]

further explanation :- many countries invite a stronger partner to help , but when it's time to leave may not be so easy .......

the europeans came to liberate the holy land around AD 1200 - they only left 700 years later after carving up the place ...... the brits came to india to prevent russian and/or turkish advance ...the brits left 150 years later ....and they were based thousands of miles away without todays tech and with a weak demographic base ....still they managed to take their time about leaving

imagine if pak wants to say thanks to china ,,,, we can handle our own Gawda port and w can handle GB'stan ..... with chinas demographic base, their proximity just next door and given todays tech ...

im not going into whether china's help is genuine and all that .....let's assume it IS ! ......question is does Pak have the option to say "thank you " to china ? ....will they leave if / when politely asked to do so ? .... i think you know my answer

( sent from the front of my back-talk 2 )

Your drift to the Crussades and the Brits and demography is really far fetched. Like investments in infra facilities of Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and possibly Maldives now a Chinese firm is building a port in Pakistan, and likely a railway and a pipeline furthermore. All commercial operations, for the time being. The host countries are not worried as it's being in their interest. Dubai-based DP World Ltd is also investing in your Mumbai port. Does it arouse any concern "Arabs won't leave", or "India gets under UAE protection" or "India cedes Nhava Sheva to Emirates"??

 

[roma]

Your drift to the Crussades and the Brits and demography is really far fetched. Like investments in infra facilities of Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and possibly Maldives now a Chinese firm is building a port in Pakistan, and likely a railway and a pipeline furthermore. All commercial operations, for the time being. The host countries are not worried as it's being in their interest. Dubai-based DP World Ltd is also investing in your Mumbai port. Does it arouse any concern "Arabs won't leave", or "India gets under UAE protection" or "India cedes Nhava Sheva to Emirates"??

the examples i gave, although distant in time are nevertheless military in nature and thus directly relevant
your examples are about UAE and emirates investing financially - not militarily - but never mind - that is a side issue - forget it

the main point is as follows :-- where there are chinese military bases - especially in pakistan , they would be most reluctant to vacate
in fact in the case of pakistan, those are irreversible decisions

- by inviting china's military onto their territory - it is now going to be very difficult for pak to say to china :- "thank you for setting up - we can now handle it on our own, so pls vacate" - those military bases are now CCP territory and they would be most reluctant to move back home ...

it will also be most interesting to observe the chain of command - will chinese personnel take their orders form pak commanders or will they have n entirely separate chain of command being uniquely chinese ONLY - a great case for management study and group dynamics ....yes there are cases of mixed command in the UN but that is a temporary situation - so we shall watch with interest

 

[LETHALFORCE]

no exaggeration at all - just as in the past the asian republics were under the soviet union we are seeing a new-repeat phenomenon ---- this time voluntarily placing themselves under CCP "protection" .... the point is that when the protection is no longer needed , can you ask them to leave ?

Why should they? They are getting in for peanuts and they willl not
Walk away from controlling all the trade in these backward countries
Pakistan just ensured that it's economy will always be in the gutter
Any gains belong to china. Chinese aren't investing in Pakistan from
The kindness of their heart China has never given any AID to pakistan.

 

[Ray]

What can u write other than go ad hominem?

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2

????????????????

 

[ice berg]

What inherited ? Show me where Tibetan signed their lands to China. Chinese people should read their own history than typing one liner slogans, but then its a systemic brainwashing at work.......

Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like the preceding Yuan dynasty, the Manchus of the Qing dynasty exerted military and administrative control of the region, while granting it a degree of political autonomy. The Qing commander publicly executed a number of supporters of the rebels, and, as in 1723 and 1728, made changes in the political structure and drew up a formal organization plan. The Qing now restored the Dalai Lama as ruler leading government called Kashag[32] but elevated the role of Amban to include more direct involvement in Tibetan internal affairs. At the same time the Qing took steps to counterbalance the power of the aristocracy by adding officials recruited from the clergy to key posts.[33]
For several decades, peace reigned in Tibet, but in 1792 the Qing emperor sent a large Chinese army into Tibet to push the invading Nepalese out. This prompted yet another Qing reorganization of the Tibetan government, this time through a written plan called the "Twenty-Nine Regulations for Better Government in Tibet". Qing military garrisons staffed with Qing troops were now also established near the Nepalese border.[34] Tibet was dominated by the Manchus in various stages in the 18th century, and the years immediately following the 1792 regulations were the peak of the Qing imperial commissioners' authority; but there was no attempt to make Tibet a Chinese province.[35]

Maybe you should read some history rather than typing one liner slogans. But then it is a systematic brainwashing at work.

 

[hit&run]

Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like the preceding Yuan dynasty, the Manchus of the Qing dynasty exerted military and administrative control of the region, while granting it a degree of political autonomy. The Qing commander publicly executed a number of supporters of the rebels, and, as in 1723 and 1728, made changes in the political structure and drew up a formal organization plan. The Qing now restored the Dalai Lama as ruler leading government called Kashag[32] but elevated the role of Amban to include more direct involvement in Tibetan internal affairs. At the same time the Qing took steps to counterbalance the power of the aristocracy by adding officials recruited from the clergy to key posts.[33]
For several decades, peace reigned in Tibet, but in 1792 the Qing emperor sent a large Chinese army into Tibet to push the invading Nepalese out. This prompted yet another Qing reorganization of the Tibetan government, this time through a written plan called the "Twenty-Nine Regulations for Better Government in Tibet". Qing military garrisons staffed with Qing troops were now also established near the Nepalese border.[34] Tibet was dominated by the Manchus in various stages in the 18th century, and the years immediately following the 1792 regulations were the peak of the Qing imperial commissioners' authority; but there was no attempt to make Tibet a Chinese province.[35]

Maybe you should read some history rather than typing one liner slogans. But then it is a systematic brainwashing at work.

I hope Pakistanis are reading it.

Have you read what you have posted yourself. Oh its typical trait of a invader who justify his occupation. With the fall of Qing all that was between Tibet and China became null and void and to make sure it was the case Dalai Lama in 1912 kicked all the Chinese troops and Amban out of Tibet. Tibet then singed Tibet-Mangolia treaty in 1913 with Mongolia which was now a legitimate recognised state. Then they signed Simla Accord with British India in 1914. This clearly explains they never inherited whatever was between them and Qing. And why they should be have.

If it wasn't their foolish self imposed subjugation because of stupid religious credentials of detachment and maintaining their cultural and religious sanity they could have been recognised as a state who was enjoying 36 years of de facto independence. This is from where land encroacher Mafia nation China took the advantage and invaded them with an excuse of some rag tag rule of Qing dynasty's references.

Tibet was an empire, even till late 1890s they were dictating and refusing to accept accords between China and Britain. Like previous Lama made it clear that the relationship (read it again) between China and Tibet is like ''Patron and priest and had not been based on the subordination of one to the other. We are a small, religious, and independent nation".

List of Emperors of Tibet The first one had Indian lineage and their language is no where near to Chinese but Indian.

Tibetan has been opposing the Chinese claims on their sovereignty for centuries

BTW by the same logic India should claim its sovereignty over Bangladesh because we signed an accord to look after their security needs for many years to come after invading for their own good to get rid of oppressing Pakistanis ?

 

[ice berg]

I hope Pakistanis are reading it.

Have you read what you have posted yourself. Oh its typical trait of a invader who justify his occupation. With the fall of Qing all that was between Tibet and China became null and void and to make sure it was the case Dalai Lama in 1912 kicked all the Chinese troops and Amban out of Tibet. Tibet then singed Tibet-Mangolia treaty in 1913 with Mongolia which was now a legitimate recognised state. Then they signed Simla Accord with British India in 1914. This clearly explains they never inherited whatever was between them and Qing. And why they should be have.

Darn, it is hard to educate people with no basic knowledges.

Republic of China officially succeeded the Qing Dynasty.

History of the Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The chain of events forced the last emperor of China, Puyi, to abdicate on February 12. He did so upon Yuan Shikai's suggestion to Empress Dowager Longyu, who also signed the abdication papers. Puyi was allowed to continue living in the Forbidden City, however. The Republic of China officially succeeded the Qing Dynasty.

Succession occurs when one state ceases to exist or loses control over part of its territory, and another state comes into existence or assumes control over the territory lost by the first state. A central concern in this instance is whether the international obligations of the former state are taken over by the succeeding state. Changes in the form of government of one state, such as the replacement of a monarchy by a democratic form of government, do not modify or terminate the obligations incurred by the previous government. When the state ceases to exist, however, the treaties it concluded generally are terminated and those of the successor state apply to the territory. These include political treaties like alliances, which depend on the existence of the state that concluded them. But certain obligations, such as agreements concerning boundaries or other matters of local significance, carry over to the successor state.

West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2, The Gale Group, Inc., 2008

If you really want to know insted of trolling:
Tibetan sovereignty debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Prometheus]

I hope Pakistanis are reading it.

Have you read what you have posted yourself. Oh its typical trait of a invader who justify his occupation. With the fall of Qing all that was between Tibet and China became null and void and to make sure it was the case Dalai Lama in 1912 kicked all the Chinese troops and Amban out of Tibet. Tibet then singed Tibet-Mangolia treaty in 1913 with Mongolia which was now a legitimate recognised state. Then they signed Simla Accord with British India in 1914. This clearly explains they never inherited whatever was between them and Qing. And why they should be have.

If it wasn't their foolish self imposed subjugation because of stupid religious credentials of detachment and maintaining their cultural and religious sanity they could have been recognised as a state who was enjoying 36 years of de facto independence. This is from where land encroacher Mafia nation China took the advantage and invaded them with an excuse of some rag tag rule of Qing dynasty's references.

Tibet was an empire, even till late 1890s they were dictating and refusing to accept accords between China and Britain. Like previous Lama made it clear that the relationship (read it again) between China and Tibet is like ''Patron and priest and had not been based on the subordination of one to the other. We are a small, religious, and independent nation".

List of Emperors of Tibet The first one had Indian lineage and their language is no where near to Chinese but Indian.

Tibetan has been opposing the Chinese claims on their sovereignty for centuries

BTW by the same logic India should claim its sovereignty over Bangladesh because we signed an accord to look after their security needs for many years to come after invading for their own good to get rid of oppressing Pakistanis ?

ha ha lets invade Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Iran and show them the map of the Mauryan empire :cb:

 

[huaxia rox]

Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

At last, Pakistan finally took the gutsy decision of handing over the strategically vital Gwadar port to China, ignoring the raised eyebrows from the U.S., India, several western and Gulf countries including Iran.

Located at the top of Arabian sea and mouth of Gulf near the strategic Strait of Hormuz, Gwadar port is at the apex of busy trading and oil shipping route and surrounded by a region that houses around two-thirds of the world's oil reserves. Besides Pakistan and China, its natural beneficiaries will be the landlocked, but energy-rich, Central Asian Republics and Afghanistan, for whom it is the nearest warm-water sea port.

The project of world-class sea port that could monitor and share bulk of world's oil trade has always been a temptation for entire world; like the strategic Strait of Hormuz, which has enabled its controller Iran to see eyeball to eyeball with the mighty super power, the U.S. So, Gwadar always remained a prized object inviting all the mighty countries of the world to win it.

Major political mileage

Before creation of Pakistan, Gwadar was gifted to Sultanate of Oman by its controller, Khan of Kalat (present day district in resources rich Baluchistan province), as part of dowry to his daughter when she married prince of Muscat. Due to its strategic importance, India made several attempts to purchase it, all of which were foiled by Pakistan, and finally purchased it back from Oman in 1958.

Pakistan is just three months away from elections, the project of Gwadar port is being seen as a major political mileage that is akin to the motorway project of 1998, which too, was seen as a major trade route for the newly liberated central Asian republics to Gulf via Gwadar port. At that time, the same angry world powers opposed the motorway project, considering Central Asia as their domain which a pygmy-like Pakistan trying to wrestle away along with innumerable trade and other benefits.

Tagged with all those multi-billion dollar profit options, Gwadar port will now being operated by China, against a vehement resistance by the U.S. Obviously, controlling the huge unfathomable resources of central Asia is perhaps one of the major objectives of the long and the costliest ever military campaign in Afghanistan. Despite all the lip service, none of the western countries has ever been willing to give any substantial help to Pakistan which could enable this nuclear power grow into a strong economic regional power.

China's help

China, on the other hand, has a long list of projects that helped out Pakistan, including many defense projects, Karakoram Highway, Gwadar port etc. After China was awarded the contract to build Gwadar port, Beijing won over its operation contract on strong merit as other contenders like the UAE and Singapore were far less suitable, both economically and strategically.

UAE being owner of rival Dubai port, would have clash of interests in the entire Gulf region. While Singapore remained unable to advance the deal, presumably due to its inability to resist western pressure. Though former Pakistani Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, imported from Citibank, had decided to give operations contract to Singapore, there were reports that a certain piece of land meant for developing duty free zone remained disputed since it was owned by the Pakistan Navy which refused to surrender it.

China's 60 percent oil comes from Gulf by ships traveling over 16,000 kilometers in two to three months, confronting pirates, bad weather, political rivals and other risks up to its only commercial port, Shanghai. Gwadar will reduce the distance to mere 2500 kilometers and also serve round the year.

Besides China, Gwadar will be a much cheaper alternative to the traders of Europe, Japan, the Far East, and Central Asia, who could use the under-construction airport to air-lift their good from here, saving over half of the costs and time.

Regional politics

But from the phase of construction to operating, China has given up two subsidiary projects which were part of original Gwadar port. Beijing refused to build the oil refinery at Gwadar, and to review the Pakistan-Iran gas pipeline through its economic experts. Nevertheless, Pakistan made "significant progress" this year in shape of commissioning IP gas pipeline and Gwadar port projects despite world's sanctions on Iran.

How will the U.S. respond? It is the key question on which the regional politics in near future will rest. Both these decisions are being termed as historic and a feather in the cap of otherwise the ever-notorious president of Pakistan, Asif Ali Zardari who is also practically controlling the affairs of the ruling PPP. He made those toughest decisions at the tail-end of his party's five-year rule, leaving the consequences to be faced by the next government.

 

[nrupatunga]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

From the above post

Before creation of Pakistan, Gwadar was gifted to Sultanate of Oman by its controller, Khan of Kalat (present day district in resources rich Baluchistan province), as part of dowry to his daughter when she married prince of Muscat. Due to its strategic importance, India made several attempts to purchase it, all of which were foiled by Pakistan, and finally purchased it back from Oman in 1958.

This is interesting, never knew this. Sadly if we could have got that strtch of land, it would have been HUGELY HUGELY beneficial to us. Will we ever stop hurting ourselves
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
WRT to US response, they may step up balaochi insurgency much more if the chiniese seriously threaten them.

 

[farhan_9909]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

Iran has already entered into use gwadar party

by proposing to manufacture a refinery in gwadar

 

[Daredevil]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

China's 60 percent oil comes from Gulf by ships traveling over 16,000 kilometers in two to three months, confronting pirates, bad weather, political rivals and other risks up to its only commercial port, Shanghai. Gwadar will reduce the distance to mere 2500 kilometers and also serve round the year.

Reducing distance by itself is not a big thing because the oil has to be carried by road which is perhaps most inefficient and expensive way of doing things. Its always easy and inexpensive to carry oil via huge ship-based tankers or pipelines.

 

[Ray]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

Reducing distance by itself is not a big thing because the oil has to be carried by road which is perhaps most inefficient and expensive way of doing things. Its always easy and inexpensive to carry oil via huge ship-based tankers or pipelines.

It will pass through Balochistan!

Balochis love Pakistanis and Chinese!

The construction of the Gwadar port and the influx of Chinese engineers who oversee the project irritated Baluchi national anxieties. The Gwadar Port project employed close to 500 Chinese nationals by 2004. The nationalists have strong reservations about the construction of a new deep-sea port in Gwadar. They fear that the mega project, which is being developed with the help of China, would lead to a massive influx of outside workers and turn the local population into a minority. Baluchi nationalists believe that Beijing is in league with Islamabad to develop and export the province's natural gas resources. Pakistan's leading natural gas company, Sui, is located in Baluchistan but provides products for the entire country.

On 03 May 2004, the BLA killed three Chinese engineers working on the Port. Gwadar airport was attacked by rockets at midnight on 21 May 2004. On 09 October 2004, two Chinese engineers were kidnapped in South Waziristan in the northwest of Pakistan, one of whom was killed later on 14 October 2004 in a botched rescue operation. In July 2007, a bus full of Chinese engineers was bombed in the southwestern province of Baluchistan. None of the Chinese was killed (although a number of policemen on detail to protect the Chinese were).

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/balochistan-2004.htm

 

[nrupatunga]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

Reducing distance by itself is not a big thing because the oil has to be carried by road which is perhaps most inefficient and expensive way of doing things. Its always easy and inexpensive to carry oil via huge ship-based tankers or pipelines.

Yes, they may construct pipelines to connect to the central-asian pipeline which in turn connects to their grid. Since they have built railway line to lahsa, they can build a pipeline (technical knowhow is present) in such high terrain as well. Powering the pipeline maybe an issue, they may have to build a power station. So theoretically possible.

 

[Vishwarupa]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

Does India have any counter plan to Gwadar port?

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

Does India have any counter plan to Gwadar port?

yeah at the time of war, just nuke it, it will take care of both Pakistan and China.

 

[Vishwarupa]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

yeah at the time of war, just nuke it, it will take care of both Pakistan and China.

Until then economically both Pakis & chinese will be benefited & will reap rich monies. India will be mute spectator.

 

[hello_10]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

Troubled Region under Chinese Control

my own understanding finds that US knows, how hard it is to handle Afghanistan, and China also knows big bounty on this part of the world....... with a bottom-line fact that US/NATO have tried everything they could in Afghan, every tactics they used including bombing on the civilians in search of the militants too but nothing worked. and if they can't afford to be there anymore, they would like to transfer every benefit of this part of the world to China, if China may accept responsibility of this country, at least......:ranger:

China also knows that sooner or later, they will have to worry for the world's security, if they may assure a 'close to' super power status, after fall of US, hopefully by 2020. and from here, if US can't stand in Afghan then who will be responsible if terror attacks are made from this region????? have a look on the news as below too, isn't it a wise step to be in Afghan straightaway and closely watch those who may interfere in China?????

Gwadar is the best place to have a watch on this certain region, with many other benefits associated with it, by holding the best Strategic Location of this region to Central Asia, which is located in a country which is going to be heavily dependent on China in future, economically and militarily both. and from the Indian point of view, a non-US Afghan under Chinese business activities from this port will, obviously, help India to have less trouble on the trade route from Chah-Bahar to Afghan to Central Asia too.... I mean, if China may get something from this region, then they will have to first make it region 'stable', with as much liberal as Pakistan, at least. and if this happens, all the investors in this region will get its benefits, including India, which is eyeing high trade volume through Chah-Bahar port to the mineral rich Central Asia, through the troubled Afghan where India has done heavy investment........

Uighurs and China's Xinjiang Region

XUAR (Xinxiang Uighur Autonomous Region), or East Turkistan, is a territory in western China that accounts for one-sixth of China's land and is home to about twenty million people from thirteen major ethnic groups, the largest of which (more than eight million) is the Uighurs [PRON: WEE-gurs], a predominantly Muslim community with ties to Central Asia. The Uyghur American Association (UAA) says that East Turkistan is a part of Central Asia, not of China. Some Uighurs call China's presence in Xinjiang a form of imperialism, and there have been movements for independence since the1990s through separatist groups like the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), inflamed in part by large migrations of Han Chinese to the region.

In February 2012, at least a dozen people died after being attacked on the street by Muslims armed with knives near Kashgar, the western part of Xinxiang located near China's border with Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. After the Chinese government said the men involved had links to terrorists in Pakistan, a Chinese woman was also killed in Pakistan in what was considered a retaliatory attack. China claims the rioters were trained in Pakistan and has asked Pakistan to take "credible measures" to safeguard its citizens. XUAR shares borders with five Muslim countries--Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan--which seems to be a Chinese concern. The China-Pakistan relationship in particular has been strained by the recent killings, and questions about China's traditional friendship with Pakistan are rising.

Terrorism and Counterterrorism

During the 1990s, Uighur separatist groups in Xinjiang began frequent attacks against the Chinese government. The most famous of these groups was the ETIM, labeled as a terrorist organization by China, the United States, and the UN Security Council. China claims the group has links to al-Qaeda and says that they were trained in jihadi terror camps in Pakistan to launch attacks in Urumqi. Reports say Pakistani officials have also admitted that the militants in western China have ties to the Pakistani Taliban and other militants in northwestern Pakistani regions along the Afghan border. Pakistan, a close ally, has assured China of full support to contain terrorism in China. Concern about Uighur terrorism flared in August 2008--just days before the Beijing Olympics--when two men attacked a military police unit (NYT) in Xinjiang, killing sixteen.

Uighurs and China's Xinjiang Region - Council on Foreign Relations

 

[nrupatunga]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

Troubled Region under Chinese Control

my own understanding finds that US knows, how hard it is to handle Afghanistan ......... they would like to transfer every benefit of this part of the world to China, if China may accept responsibility of this country, at least......:ranger:

Then why did they have to suffer so many casualties and also loose billions of $$ before handing it over to supercop of asia. When china can't take back a tiny isalnd of it's coast(taiwan), what policing can they do in the badlands of a'stan/p'stan.

You people can continue to daydream.

 

[hello_10]

Re: Pakistan's strategic port in China's hands – a U.S. response?

Then why did they have to suffer so many casualties and also loose billions of $$ before handing it over to supercop of asia. When china can't take back a tiny isalnd of it's coast(taiwan), what policing can they do in the badlands of a'stan/p'stan.

You people can continue to daydream.

US Think Tank has many who always look for an opportunity for a war. sometimes we find that they have a certain mind-set, which looks for the benefits through different wars 'only'. an approach they have, how to organize wars, but we finally find them losing almost every war they fought since WW2.......

Gwadar is a typically important strategic location of this part of the world. and as Chinese dont have have any 1000s years religious war with Muslims, we do hope that people won't then be targeted due to their religious belief, making a good reason to have 'enough' stability in this region. and as we know the fact that China can't have any benefit without having 'stability'/peace in this region, we do like to see their hands in this region. as, if they will do a business there then the local rulers will not ignore the other investors too, like India, for a better business with others too.......:thumb: