New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Vinod DX9]

Insas 1c and AAR should have been R&D by private companies...it would be awesomely modified

 

[devhensh]

The Indian army is a professional army that trains its soldiers to maintain their weapons properly, so I dont think the Tavor 7 will cause any problems when it comes to reliability. And it isnt unreliable in any regard, imo. I think the Tavor 7 is a far more future proof choice than Galil.

Not saying that the Tavor 7 is an unreliable weapon...But most of the new weapon systems have some flaws when launched, which are discovered with time and ironed out ....That is why, i wrote that Tavor 7 is an unproven weapon which doesn't have any track record.......

The reliability and Track record that people talk about is of Tavor 21......Tavor 7 is a completely redesigned gun....It's a short stroke piston as opposed to AK like long stroke of Tavor 21 ....The Tavor 7 bolt is completely redesigned and the new rotating bolt having eight lugs compared to the three of the Tavor 21...Bolt, Ejection Port, Charging handle are all ambidextrous....almost everything else is diffrent and just the outer shell is same .....

But i think all these changes make it a better weapon platform and thus have increased it's chances of being selected....Just imagine the Tavor 7 with 17 inch barrel, makes a very compact rifle (CARBINE) and the same with 20 inch barrel makes an accurate DMR(the weapon comes standard with these two barrel length)....

Also IWI people have mentioned few times, that Tavor 7 was developed to meet a specific customer's requirement....
So is it possible that they took Indian Army's specifications / feedback and developed the rifle around it ?? If yes, then there ALWAYS was only one rifle in contention

 

[Shaitan]

Also IWI people have mentioned few times, that Tavor 7 was developed to meet a specific customer's requirement....
So is it possible that they took Indian Army's specifications / feedback and developed the rifle around it ?? If yes, then there ALWAYS was only one rifle in contention


When I first heard about them making the tavor in that caliber I had a feeling it was for IA requirement.

 

[devhensh]

Slightly unrelated....but read till the end as it may be important in long run......

Desert Tech MDR is the rifle, which Tavor 7 has borrowed heavily from and is trying to beat in US market...One important feature of MDR in 7.62x51 is that it can be converted to 5.56x45 (and many intermediate calibers)......

I am thinking that Tavor 7 will also provide the same caliber change flexibility(in long run) .....all design elements are already there ......allowing big customers like Indian Army to use the same rifle for both 7.62x51(say at LOC) and 5.56x45 (for Internal Security and CQB in urban areas)....This maybe an added benefit ...

 

[abingdonboy]

Slightly unrelated....but read till the end as it may be important in long run......

Desert Tech MDR is the rifle, which Tavor 7 has borrowed heavily from and is trying to beat in US market...One important feature of MDR in 7.62x51 is that it can be converted to 5.56x45 (and many intermediate calibers)......

I am thinking that Tavor 7 will also provide the same caliber change flexibility(in long run) .....all design elements are already there ......allowing big customers like Indian Army to use the same rifle for both 7.62x51(say at LOC) and 5.56x45 (for Internal Security and CQB in urban areas)....This maybe an added benefit ...

Yeah but the IA explicitly dropped the multi calibre requirement for their future rifles, if they go and order such a system it will be a real slap in the face to DRDO because they had to can the AAR/MCIWS

 

[abingdonboy]

Also IWI people have mentioned few times, that Tavor 7 was developed to meet a specific customer's requirement....
So is it possible that they took Indian Army's specifications / feedback and developed the rifle around it ?? If yes, then there ALWAYS was only one rifle in contention


When I first heard about them making the tavor in that caliber I had a feeling it was for IA requirement.

IA announced change from multi cal to 7.62*51 requirement, a few weeks later IWI showcased the Tavor in 7.62*51 at Punj Lloyd for the very first time

 

[devhensh]

Yeah but the IA explicitly dropped the multi calibre requirement for their future rifles, if they go and order such a system it will be a real slap in the face to DRDO because they had to can the AAR/MCIWS

I liked and believe that the MCIWS is the most advanced Indian weapon system. But it never was designed for 7.62x51(it was is 5.56, 7.62x39 and 6.8 SPC).....

This tender is specifically for a 7.62x51mm rifle.....besides i don't think IA is looking for multicaliber weapon...It was just something, which came to my mind as a fringe benefit....

 

[nongaddarliberal]

What are the 90,000 carbines that theyll be getting? Something like M4 or tavor?

 

[devhensh]

What are the 90,000 carbines that theyll be getting? Something like M4 or tavor?

These terms are misleading....A Carbine is a rifle with a short barrel(e.g M4 has a 14.5 inch barrel)...but a Tavor with 16 inch barrel is shorter in overall length, so is a carbine !

My educated guess is that our Army will go for two rifles....One foreign rifle in 7.62x51mm(maybe 25 %) and the rest would be Indian made INSAS MK1C / Excalibur rifles which is a very good and proven platform.....

But i will leave it to the experts / moderators to have the final say on this....

 

[nongaddarliberal]

These terms are misleading....A Carbine is a rifle with a short barrel(e.g M4 has a 14.5 inch barrel)...but a Tavor with 16 inch barrel is shorter in overall length, so is a carbine !

My educated guess is that our Army will go for two rifles....One foreign rifle in 7.62x51mm(maybe 25 %) and the rest would be Indian made INSAS MK1C / Excalibur rifles which is a very good and proven platform.....

But i will leave it to the experts / moderators to have the final say on this....

But a carbine is not only about short length, its also about easy controllability in full auto, for CQB. So a 7.62x51 rifle cant be considered a carbine even if its small. They would probably go for a 5.56 rifle.

 

[devhensh]

But a carbine is not only about short length, its also about easy controllability in full auto, for CQB. So a 7.62x51 rifle cant be considered a carbine even if its small. They would probably go for a 5.56 rifle.

INSAS MK1C / Excalibur rifles are both in 5.56x45mm...That is the reason is mentioned them......I would be happiest if these are selected !!!

But controlability in full auto has to to do with lots of other factors than caliber...Look at this vedio and tell me if this is less controllable than a 5.56x45 system !!!

 

[Johny_Baba]

Slightly unrelated....but read till the end as it may be important in long run......

Desert Tech MDR is the rifle, which Tavor 7 has borrowed heavily from and is trying to beat in US market...One important feature of MDR in 7.62x51 is that it can be converted to 5.56x45 (and many intermediate calibers)......

I am thinking that Tavor 7 will also provide the same caliber change flexibility(in long run) .....all design elements are already there ......allowing big customers like Indian Army to use the same rifle for both 7.62x51(say at LOC) and 5.56x45 (for Internal Security and CQB in urban areas)....This maybe an added benefit ...

Hhmm...

I would like to know how such platforms like MDR and Tavor 7 would facilitate magazine change,i mean both these guns use SR-25 pattern magazine in 7.62 x 51mm and like most other 5.56 x 45mm guns would take STANAG mags for that round.

As for Tavor 7 going to be developed as a multi cal gun,some points to consider
- Like i said above,Magazine change.'Magazine Well' have to be made in such a way that it could accept various different mags with/without some modifications.IWI guys might've already considered it that's why they're going from larger caliber gun to smaller one,as it's perhaps the easiest way i.e. by using special magazine adapters for smaller mag in larger mag well or so.
- bolt would have to be changed,but i think it is not a much bigger issue since stoner pattern multi lug bolts already exist in 5.56 x 45mm and other such calibers,even in 5.45 x 39mm and 7.62 x 39mm.
- quick detachable barrel,i am not so sure how Tavor 7 would facilitate it.
- finally,gas system but i guess with short stroke system it is already made easier so not much issues here.

Overall i think it's a great idea.They should gradually phase out all other platforms like Tavor TAR-21,X-95 and so and bring out Tavor-7 as 'Universal platform' for all different calibers.

 

[rkhanna]

The reliability and Track record that people talk about is of Tavor 21......Tavor 7 is a completely redesigned gun....It's a short stroke piston as opposed to AK like long stroke of Tavor 21 ..

Just one point. The TAR 21 was removed from service in 2009 and replaced by the X-95. The X-95 itself is an improved evolution of the MTAR-21, The Tavor 7 is the latest evolution of the Tavor Family.

To say it is an untested system would be inaccurate.

PS. dont forget that when we adopted the TAR series it was pretty untested as well. infact the max real world testing of the small arms system has been done in India (outside of Israel)

 

[nongaddarliberal]

INSAS MK1C / Excalibur rifles are both in 5.56x45mm...That is the reason is mentioned them......I would be happiest if these are selected !!!

But controlability in full auto has to to do with lots of other factors than caliber...Look at this vedio and tell me if this is less controllable than a 5.56x45 system !!!

Though more controllable than traditional battle rifles, its still not as easy to operate in full auto as a normal 5.56 rifle. But if our troops can handle AK 47's recoil in close quarters, then Tavor 7 won't be much of a problem. But still, I don't think it can be classified as a carbine. And the wording of the requirement explicitly says that the assault rifle and carbine requirements are different. I think they'll choose some AR platform for the carbine requirement.

 

[Hari Sud]

Just one point. The TAR 21 was removed from service in 2009 and replaced by the X-95. The X-95 itself is an improved evolution of the MTAR-21, The Tavor 7 is the latest evolution of the Tavor Family.

To say it is an untested system would be inaccurate.

PS. dont forget that when we adopted the TAR series it was pretty untested as well. infact the max real world testing of the small arms system has been done in India (outside of Israel)

Is that true that TAR-21 has been removed from service?

I do not think so. It is still in service.

 

[binayak95]

Is that true that TAR-21 has been removed from service?

I do not think so. It is still in service.

In Israel, yes. The IDF has phased out all Tar-21s from service. They were barrel heavy, I think. They have been converted to X-95s.

 

[devhensh]

To say it is an untested system would be inaccurate.

PS. dont forget that when we adopted the TAR series it was pretty untested as well. infact the max real world testing of the small arms system has been done in India (outside of Israel)

Let me clarify and draw the complete picture......When Tavor 21 was adopted by India, it was already accepted and in service by Israeli forces for quite some time. IDF accepted the TAR-21 as standard issue rifle after very detailed trails to replace their M16/ M4 rifles....So TAR-21 was a much tested and proven platform (we all know about standards of IDF)..... They later upgraded the TAR-21 with X-95 which incorporated small changes related to ergonomics and made the rifle more compact..

Tavor 7 was first shown to public and allowed for test fire from 21s Jan 2018 onwards in shot Show 2018 in US...It hasn't been tested or adopted by the Israeli Armed forces or any other country yet....

also the Tavor 7 differs from TAR-21/X95 a lot (they have changed the Long stroke Piston to short stroke, Bolt is completely diffrent, Ejection mechanism is diffrent also the caliber)....A new 7.62x51mm class weapon can't be judged by it's old 5.56x45mm predecessor's legacy....

So to say it is an untested system would NOT be inaccurate.

But as i have posted earlier, this is the most Innovative 7.62 platform till date as per me and IWI Israel has a very very good record of producing world class Military small arms....

Above all, Indian Army will accept this only after a very detailed trails ...and i think they are working with IWI for quite sometime on this......In short, if it passes the IA trails, it's going to be a world class service rifle !!!

 

[rkhanna]

You are forgetting that when the TAR was first operational with the SFF the 350 guns were deemed unsatisfactory by them. IWI fixed all the issues and delivered the rest of the order post 2006

For the record. India Signed the Deal for the Tavors in 2002. The SFF was equipped as a testing unit post that.. Became highly visible with broader military 2005/06 onwards.

This is also the exact same timeline the Israeli's were inducting and testing their own TAR-21. The TAR-21 never saw full enrollment with the IDF. In 2009 they switched the entire order to the X-95.

Over this period All use of the TAR-21 was done in a static environment in Israel. In India in the same time frame we deployed the gun from Siachen to the Jungles of the NE and everything in between.

My point being - yes you are correct the TAVOR 7 is "untested" but its not rocket science. IWI Has half a century of history of creating quality weapon systems. That, coupled with our experience with them and their response to fixing issues makes me comfortable taking the risk Tavor 7 (if chosen)

The argument on whether line infantry should be equipped with a very expensive Bullpup is a whole different thing.

 

[devhensh]

My point being - yes you are correct the TAVOR 7 is "untested" but its not rocket science. IWI Has half a century of history of creating quality weapon systems. That, coupled with our experience with them and their response to fixing issues makes me comfortable taking the risk Tavor 7 (if chosen)

The argument on whether line infantry should be equipped with a very expensive Bullpup is a whole different thing.

We both are saying the same thing but in diffrent ways....and Yes, both are correct !

You see; i never said that Tavor 7 wouldn't be or shouldn't be selected because it's untested!!! Rather i mentioned in many places (see last post itself) that it's a very innovative rifle, and if Army decides to induct it , they will induct it after detailed trails. I also, mentioned that IA is working with IWI on this for some time now, and they will iron out whatever small flaws are detected in trials !

Also the context in which i mentioned untested was to reply to somebody's question about which rifle will be selected and pros and cons....I mentioned that the Galil Ace 52 was a old but much tested design which has a track record. But Tavor 7 is the most innovative new rifle but is untested and doesn't have a track record...... The point is, that this is something which may influence Army's final decision....

And you are right, in saying that, the bigger question in front of army is, whether they should equip regular infantry with a advanced bullpup ...which maynot be cost effective and may go against training and doctrine...But again, TAR 21 is also used by more specialized forces in India in large numbers ...

P.S - I have handled both Tavor 21 and X95 in gun ranges here......The changes between two are very small and only to do with Ergonomics.....But there is a general consensus here in US amongst experts that the Tar 21, is much more accurate than the X95 !!!

 

[rkhanna]

@devhensh fair enough. I didn't understand your context.

Ps I have heard a couple of Indian operators complain of the weight imbalance in the tar 21 and say they prefer the M4 over it. Which I believe the x95 fixes