Multiple Independently Targetable Reentry Vehicles (MIRVs)

[pmaitra]

This goes to the larger point of: just what is India's nuclear arsenal for? Minimum countervalue deterrence against a nuclear state? You do not need MIRV technology for that. MIRV technology is useful for counterforce strikes and, when placed in SLBMs, dealing with assholes at the Pentagon who go to launch-on-warning/first-strike in times of crisis.

Maybe from PRC's perspective, but from India's perspective, Pentagon is not a threat.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

If you don't have good terminal guidance for MIRV warheads, your CEP increases dramatically; remember that doubling your CEP means you have to quadruple your radiation yield and increase 8x your blast yield for the same effect. What's more, a MIRV bus can only carry warheads of a set size or smaller, which restricts the yield on your warheads. Instead of carrying a single 3-5 mt warhead, you could only carry warheads of 300-475 kt yield max - and that's assuming you've mastered the art of miniaturizing thermonuclear devices to the same level as the US (W88), China (W88 clones), and Russia (whatever warhead is sitting on the Topol-M).

The most reasonable estimate is that India could deliver maybe 200 kt to a city-sized target with MIRV technology. In that case, then India's nuclear arsenal has no deterrent value against a nuclear state, since India has NFU and India cannot perform counterforce strikes and must directly jump to threatening countervalue strikes against conventional aggression if it wants its nuclear arsenal to have any military use whatsoever.

That is why proper terminal guidance is so critical. You cannot threaten an adversary with hardened C4ISR nodes and thousands of miles of underground tunnels storing nuclear missiles if your own nukes are inaccurate and low-yield.

Chinese have MIRV's on USA and Russia scales I doubt it. An SLBM has not even been
launched successfully by China don't think people are stupid and believe your exaggerations.
200 kiloton MIRV -really?

 

[Yusuf]

For MIRV launch from the mother career and terminal maneuvers of MARV.

Not necessary. MIRVs existed before GPS came.

 

[Yusuf]

If you don't have good terminal guidance for MIRV warheads, your CEP increases dramatically; remember that doubling your CEP means you have to quadruple your radiation yield and increase 8x your blast yield for the same effect. What's more, a MIRV bus can only carry warheads of a set size or smaller, which restricts the yield on your warheads. Instead of carrying a single 3-5 mt warhead, you could only carry warheads of 300-475 kt yield max - and that's assuming you've mastered the art of miniaturizing thermonuclear devices to the same level as the US (W88), China (W88 clones), and Russia (whatever warhead is sitting on the Topol-M).

The most reasonable estimate is that India could deliver maybe 200 kt to a city-sized target with MIRV technology. In that case, then India's nuclear arsenal has no deterrent value against a nuclear state, since India has NFU and India cannot perform counterforce strikes and must directly jump to threatening countervalue strikes against conventional aggression if it wants its nuclear arsenal to have any military use whatsoever.

That is why proper terminal guidance is so critical. You cannot threaten an adversary with hardened C4ISR nodes and thousands of miles of underground tunnels storing nuclear missiles if your own nukes are inaccurate and low-yield.

Indian nuclear deterrent is NOT s counter force one but counter value. It really does not matter if Indian 200kt warhead explodes over Tianenmen Square or the airport. MIRVs existed before GPS was invented. Yes GPS will help and as posted by others, India has the option of using 3 different system. But still if none are available, India will still be able to launch a counter value strike in response to a first strike by any other state.

 

[hit&run]

Indian nuclear deterrent is NOT s counter force one but counter value. It really does not matter if Indian 200kt warhead explodes over Tianenmen Square or the airport. MIRVs existed before GPS was invented. Yes GPS will help and as posted by others, India has the option of using 3 different system. But still if none are available, India will still be able to launch a counter value strike in response to a first strike by any other state.

You are right.

''Star reading.''

I assume they all know this.

 

[tramp]

When do the warheads separate? After re-entry or prior to it?

 

[Yusuf]

When do the warheads separate? After re-entry or prior to it?

Before re entry. Makes it more difficult for counter measures

 

[Broccoli]

Chinese have MIRV's on USA and Russia scales I doubt it. An SLBM has not even been
launched successfully by China don't think people are stupid and believe your exaggerations.
200 kiloton MIRV -really?

China's newest weapon (claimed to have aspherical primary) weights 470kg and is too heavy for DF-31 series missiles to carry more than one. Pentagon and independent sources have always claimed that only ICBM Chinese could MIRV is the DF-5, but it's always said that Chinese have chosen not to do so.

For China, India and Pakistan to deploy MIRV's they would need to test more... unless they plan to use simple fission weapons.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Satellite launches were testing ground fro MIRV. China has reportedly MIRV 'd 3 warheads never confirmed to
the west. India is planning 10 warhead MIRV so i expect some testing must have been done to skip 3 warheads and
go to 10 beyond Chinese capability.

http://www.universetoday.com/13926/10-satellites-launched-in-record-setting-mission-for-india-video/

10-satellites-launched-in-record-setting-mission-for-india

http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/leitenberg/mirv.pdf

The Origin of MIRV

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/leitenberg/mirv.pdf

The Origin of MIRV

 

[Broccoli]

Satellite launches were testing ground fro MIRV. China has reportedly MIRV 'd 3 warheads never confirmed to
the west. India is planning 10 warhead MIRV so i expect some testing must have been done to skip 3 warheads and
go to 10 beyond Chinese capability.

Ten small satellites is not same thing as ten RV's what weight a lot more and have a larger diameter.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Ten small satellites is not same thing as ten RV's what weight a lot more and have a larger diameter.

It is more or less the same. MIRV's development originated from satellite launches
Do you have a link from a western source for 3 warhead Chinese MIRV?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

If you don't have good terminal guidance for MIRV warheads, your CEP increases dramatically; remember that doubling your CEP means you have to quadruple your radiation yield and increase 8x your blast yield for the same effect. What's more, a MIRV bus can only carry warheads of a set size or smaller, which restricts the yield on your warheads. Instead of carrying a single 3-5 mt warhead, you could only carry warheads of 300-475 kt yield max - and that's assuming you've mastered the art of miniaturizing thermonuclear devices to the same level as the US (W88), China (W88 clones), and Russia (whatever warhead is sitting on the Topol-M).

The most reasonable estimate is that India could deliver maybe 200 kt to a city-sized target with MIRV technology. In that case, then India's nuclear arsenal has no deterrent value against a nuclear state, since India has NFU and India cannot perform counterforce strikes and must directly jump to threatening countervalue strikes against conventional aggression if it wants its nuclear arsenal to have any military use whatsoever.

That is why proper terminal guidance is so critical. You cannot threaten an adversary with hardened C4ISR nodes and thousands of miles of underground tunnels storing nuclear missiles if your own nukes are inaccurate and low-yield.

1.3 MEGATONS

 

[sorcerer]

Ten small satellites is not same thing as ten RV's what weight a lot more and have a larger diameter.

You will understand the maturity of the project on the Indian side, when you take into consideration, the algorithm used to put multiple satellites precisely into orbit.

 

[sayareakd]

Ten small satellites is not same thing as ten RV's what weight a lot more and have a larger diameter.

10 satellites of different size in perfect orbit is difficult, compare to 10 MIRVs which can be can go half km of target and still take out entire area.

 

[shiphone]

Chinese have MIRV's on USA and Russia scales I doubt it. An SLBM has not even been
launched successfully by China don't think people are stupid and believe your exaggerations.
200 kiloton MIRV -really?

quite funny statement indeed...let's talke about some 'old' history which was not very sensitive like JL2 Projcet and has more historical materials.

JL1 ,2500 Km level SLBM...the project began in 1969...

the Dummy missile launch on the underwater platform began on July 31st 1972
the Dummy launch from the 30 meter depth underwater platform in the sea on Sep-Oct 1972
the Dummy launch from the Type031 SSB200 ,6 times(4 failure and 2 sucess) on May-Aug 1979
the first Real missile launch from the SSB200 ,failed on 7th Oct ,1982
5 days later ,on 12th Oct 1982 the second Launch succeded and made china the forth country to get the SLBM tech.
28th Sep 1985 , three launch from the Type092 (SSBN 406)...all failed
14:00 ,15th Sep 1988 , the first successful Lauch frome the SSBN 406,which made the China the fifth country to launch the SLBM from the nuclear Sub.
the second test on 27th Sep 1982 was sucessful as well which means JL-1 SLBM passed the National Test at the same time..
from then on.all following JL-1 tests would be operational launch.

China's newest weapon (claimed to have aspherical primary) weights 470kg and is too heavy for DF-31 series missiles to carry more than one. Pentagon and independent sources have always claimed that only ICBM Chinese could MIRV is the DF-5, but it's always said that Chinese have chosen not to do so.

For China, India and Pakistan to deploy MIRV's they would need to test more... unless they plan to use simple fission weapons.

DF31 ,and DF31A are both single warhead missile...

the the Multi warhead one in service is DF5B(1.5 tons PBV with 3-5 warhead, 3 tons in total) which passed the National test in 2006.
the second model with MIRV is JL2 SLBM which passed the national test in Dec 2010...
the DF41 is under development...

for that 'more test' suggestion, I would like to recommend you save this for some others......ex. in 2002 , there were 8 JL2 launchs from the SSB200

-----------------------------------
the launch of CZ-2C/SMA in Sep 2008 was the another remarkable issue ...this rocket (CZ2 was based on DF5 serial) send the HJ-1 and HJ-2 satellites into different orbits precisely.

the earlier launchs of CZ-2/SD(put 2 Motorola Satellites into orbits one time) in 1990's have already shown us the rudiment of MIRV tech.

this model was displayed in Airshow China 2012....the Advanced Upper Stage of CZ(LongMarch) rockets.

----------------------------------
once again, these indicated the language barrier limited your guy's knowledge...but it is comprehensible.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

quite funny statement indeed...let's talke about some 'old' history which was not very sensitive like JL2 Projcet and has more historical materials.

JL1 ,2500 Km level SLBM...the project began in 1969...

the Dummy missile launch on the underwater platform began on July 31st 1972
the Dummy launch from the 30 meter depth underwater platform in the sea on Sep-Oct 1972
the Dummy launch from the Type031 SSB200 ,6 times(4 failure and 2 sucess) on May-Aug 1979
the first Real missile launch from the SSB200 ,failed on 7th Oct ,1982
5 days later ,on 12th Oct 1982 the second Launch succeded and made china the forth country to get the SLBM tech.
28th Sep 1985 , three launch from the Type092 (SSBN 406)...all failed
14:00 ,15th Sep 1988 , the first successful Lauch frome the SSBN 406,which made the China the fifth country to launch the SLBM from the nuclear Sub.
the second test on 27th Sep 1982 was sucessful as well which means JL-1 SLBM passed the National Test at the same time..
from then on.all following JL-1 tests would be operational launch.




DF31 ,and DF31A are both single warhead missile...

the the Multi warhead one in service is DF5B(1.5 tons PBV with 3-5 warhead, 3 tons in total) which passed the National test in 2006.
the second model with MIRV is JL2 SLBM which passed the national test in Dec 2010...
the DF41 is under development...

for that 'more test' suggestion, I would like to recommend you save this for some others......ex. in 2002 , there were 8 JL2 launchs from the SSB200

-----------------------------------
the launch of CZ-2C/SMA in Sep 2008 was the another remarkable issue ...this rocket (CZ2 was based on DF5 serial) send the HJ-1 and HJ-2 satellites into different orbits precisely.

the earlier launchs of CZ-2/SD(put 2 Motorola Satellites into orbits one time) in 1990's have already shown us the rudiment of MIRV tech.

this model was displayed in Airshow China 2012....the Advanced Upper Stage of CZ(LongMarch) rockets.

----------------------------------
once again, these indicated the language barrier limited your guy's knowledge...but it is comprehensible.

Don't insult or be condescending commie, you are the one who lacks understanding I
asked for a link from a western source and you provided meaningless chinese gibberish.

 

[shiphone]

It is more or less the same. MIRV's development originated from satellite launches
Do you have a link from a western source for 3 warhead Chinese MIRV?

here's one... LOL...a very famous one

Bill Gertz : Chinese Missile Tests Continue

U.S. military sensors detected the latest flight test, which took place in the early morning hours at China's Wuzhai Missile and Space Test Center, near the town of Wuzhai in northwestern Shanxi province, about 267 miles southwest of Beijing.

The missile was tracked to impact range in the western Chinese desert and was identified as a CSS-4 Mod 2 silo-based ICBM.

It followed the first flight test of a new road-mobile DF-41 multiple-warhead missile on July 24 and the test firing of a new submarine-launched ballistic missile, the JL-2, which is also assessed to be capable of carrying multiple warheads.

there were mistakes in this article and a correction here:
Actually the CSS4 mod 2= DF5A and I'm afraid American might have to call the DF5B(Multi-Warhead version) as CSS4 mod 3 in the next China military power report...LOL
------------------

Satellite launches were testing ground fro MIRV. China has reportedly MIRV 'd 3 warheads never confirmed to
the west. India is planning 10 warhead MIRV so i expect some testing must have been done to skip 3 warheads and
go to 10 beyond Chinese capability.

10 Satellites Launched in Record Setting Mission for India (Video)

10-satellites-launched-in-record-setting-mission-for-india

http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/leitenberg/mirv.pdf

The Origin of MIRV

I'm afraid you might haven't seen what the so called '10 satellites on one rockets' (PSLV-C9) looks like...

and real MIRV

 

[shiphone]

Don't insult or be condescending commie, you are the one who lacks understanding I
asked for a link from a western source and you provided meaningless chinese gibberish.

actually it's you who are keep providing some rubbish comments here..

Chinese have MIRV's on USA and Russia scales I doubt it. An SLBM has not even been
launched successfully by China don't think people are stupid and believe your exaggerations.
200 kiloton MIRV -really?
LETHALFORCE ↑

screenshot of the Documentary about the year 1982 JL1 launch test from SSB 200

--------------------------
BTW, have you ever ask the link from me ? obviously the answer was no...but I did a favour in the #60 post above...

 

[LETHALFORCE]

actually it's you who are keep providing the rubbish comments here..


..

more gibberish providing a PSLV pic in the MIRV thread PSLV is not being MIRV'd AGNI is