Multi Role Helicopters (MRH) to be inducted into Indian Navy

Rikbo88

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Raytheon has begun the process of providing the MK-54 advanced light weight digital torpedo to the Indian Navy for its P-8I long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft buy. I led the effort to integrate this weapon on the S-70B so this would add a common weapon to both aircraft types. Obvious huge advantages in having a common torpedo in terms of cost, training, maintenance, logistics, etc. The full capabilities of the MK-54 Mod 1 torpedo have been fully integrated into the S-70B along with an outstanding tactical situation display capability when an attack scenario is initiated.
Having worked with Raytheon and the Naval Undersea Warfare Center (NUWC) folks let me say this weapon represents a huge leap in capability for torpedoes and out distances it's nearest competitor (Eurotorp MU-90) by a substantial margin in terms of capability and performance. Another reason to select the S-70B.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topsto...plies_MK54_torpedoes_Indian_Navy_aircraft.htm
My experience & opinion of Eurotorp seems to be justified with the experience of the Royal Australian Navy & the MU90. The Indian Navy should definitely go with the MK54.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
 
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Rikbo88

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Why? Because Aussies are too cheap to fund integration for airbourne platforms? :lol:
No, because the weapon has failed to perform to requirements and has proven to be expensive to field. The battery refurbishment costs alone were a big surprise. Why integrate a weapon that has failed to perform when the MK54 is already fully integrated on the 60R (and the 70B)? The RAN is already geared up to support the MK46 and the MK54 uses the same OTTO fuel system so a big savings in training & logistics. Also, Eurotorp requires integrators to use their equipment to integrate the MU90 into the mission system of the aircraft thus adding cost & weight to the aircraft. I believe the RAN made the logical choice given the circumstances.
 

Armand2REP

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No, because the weapon has failed to perform to requirements and has proven to be expensive to field. The battery refurbishment costs alone were a big surprise. Why integrate a weapon that has failed to perform when the MK54 is already fully integrated on the 60R (and the 70B)? The RAN is already geared up to support the MK46 and the MK54 uses the same OTTO fuel system so a big savings in training & logistics. Also, Eurotorp requires integrators to use their equipment to integrate the MU90 into the mission system of the aircraft thus adding cost & weight to the aircraft. I believe the RAN made the logical choice given the circumstances.
They must be pretty high requirements, what little testing the ADF has done shows:

The Royal Australian Navy Test Evaluation and Acceptance Authority (RANTEAA) highlighted in its advice to Chief of Navy that the final results from the 11 OT&E firings were:
-- the shipborne surface lightweight torpedo system (which primarily incorporates the combat system and torpedo tubes) had a 91 per cent success rate in launching the MU90 torpedo;
-- the MU90 torpedo had an 80 per cent success rate of operating correctly once launched; and
-- the MU90 torpedo had an 88 per cent success rate at engaging the target when launched and operating correctly
We have fired the thing over 200 times and have success rates well into the 90th percentile. Australia is mad it is over budget and doesn't want to spend the money to integrate it to airbourne platforms or buy more test samples. It isn't a lack of failing requirements except that of cash.
 

Rikbo88

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They must be pretty high requirements, what little testing the ADF has done shows:



We have fired the thing over 200 times and have success rates well into the 90th percentile. Australia is mad it is over budget and doesn't want to spend the money to integrate it to airbourne platforms or buy more test samples. It isn't a lack of failing requirements except that of cash.
@Armand2REP - you must be closer to this than I am. My info comes from former contacts in the RAN who basically said the weapon cannot perform all the capabilities that Eurotorp claims. Being a digital torpedo, like the MK54, these new weapons offer a myriad of new features that the old analog torps do not. My info indicates some of these new features do no operate correctly. Even with the info you stated above, the cost of the weapon is more than the MK54, the maintenance costs appear to be higher and the integration costs (both non recurring and recurring) would amount to several million dollars per aircraft when amortized over the 16 60R aircraft. I base this estimate on my experience in integrating the Eurotorp A244 Mod3 torpedo into the S-70B for the Singapore Navy. EUROTORP is very expensive for both basic weapon cost and support and to integrate the weapon to a new aircraft. I can also state that the MK54 has been extensively tested by the USN and has been updated to address all known issues from those tests. I have a much higher confidence in the testing Raytheon & the USN have performed than the testing done by Eurotorp. Just my personal opinion based on my work with both companies. I cannot fault the RAN for deciding not to spend the funds to obtain a capability they already have with the MK54. Also, I would expect the P-3 Orion aircraft would be much easier to retrofit to carry the MK54 than the MU90 for the previous reasons I have already provided.
 
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Crusader53

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Re: India issues RFI for multi-role naval helicopters

I really hope that the Navy thinks out of the box on this one and also considers the V-22 Osprey as an option if it fits in our carrier elevators ... it will really boost the navys operational range. I dont think the Osprey should have any issues fitting breadth wise ... its only the length thats the issue
India would have to decide on acquiring the Osprey or any larger Helicopter at this stage. Just make the design in large enough to except aircraft that large if it decide to adopt them later on.
 

cloud

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^^^ I haven't gone thorough the specifications, but one can easily say that having a twin rotor always on top, will make it nothing more then high speed helicopters.

Meaning you will not get much fuel advantage, rotor blades will present greater drag, as speed picks up. You will need to keep rotating the top rotor blades for lift (extra fuel).
No advantage of air refueling(top rotor blade will present the obstruction),limited range.
less payload
Not much speed advantage, because ultimately it is nothing more then a heli with an extra forward pushing engine.
 
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Crusader53

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Re: India issues RFI for multi-role naval helicopters

What i meant was that its too big for our ships and current carrier.
but surely for IAC 1 and 2, it can be an option.
You can't deny that that the Osprey offers a great deal of advantages. Which, give it the ability to lift large loads @ speed and distance. Yet, land like a helicopter. Such an aircraft has unless possibilities......
 

Immanuel

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@Armand2REP - you must be closer to this than I am. My info comes from former contacts in the RAN who basically said the weapon cannot perform all the capabilities that Eurotorp claims. Being a digital torpedo, like the MK54, these new weapons offer a myriad of new features that the old analog torps do not. My info indicates some of these new features do no operate correctly. Even with the info you stated above, the cost of the weapon is more than the MK54, the maintenance costs appear to be higher and the integration costs (both non recurring and recurring) would amount to several million dollars per aircraft when amortized over the 16 60R aircraft. I base this estimate on my experience in integrating the Eurotorp A244 Mod3 torpedo into the S-70B for the Singapore Navy. EUROTORP is very expensive for both basic weapon cost and support and to integrate the weapon to a new aircraft. I can also state that the MK54 has been extensively tested by the USN and has been updated to address all known issues from those tests. I have a much higher confidence in the testing Raytheon & the USN have performed than the testing done by Eurotorp. Just my personal opinion based on my work with both companies. I cannot fault the RAN for deciding not to spend the funds to obtain a capability they already have with the MK54. Also, I would expect the P-3 Orion aircraft would be much easier to retrofit to carry the MK54 than the MU90 for the previous reasons I have already provided.
All EU weapons and platforms are hella expensive, they quite simply lack adequate orders or volumes of production to offer competitive pricing.

Looking at the fact that IN already has Harpoons, MK-54 ordered, they can continue with ordering the SLAM-ER as well for the P-8I as well. S-70is the ideal chopper for the MRH deal, 90+ of these birds could be awesome. V-22 deal should be separate since it is for a different use.
 
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SilentKiller

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Re: India issues RFI for multi-role naval helicopters

Interesting concept........Yet, wouldn't its small size make it extremely vulnerable to Anti Aircaft Damage???
But is can replace our smaller heli's and but i always felt that smaller the target, its more agile and harder to hit.
Present smaller target to enemy.
 

arnabmit

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Sikorsky says that the X2 at 210-220kt speed has the same fuel flow as a conventional helo at 120-130kt due to its improved lift-to-drag ratio

Sikorsky X2 speed king - Facts, figures and sail fairings... - As The Croft Flies

X2 Fuel Economy - 3.98 km per litre/9.36 NM per gallon

http://www.aircraftcompare.com/helicopter-airplane/Sikorsky-X2-Technology/306

V-22 Fuel Economy - 0.21 km per litre/0.49 NM per gallon

http://www.aircraftcompare.com/helicopter-airplane/Bell%20V-22%20Osprey%20/201

^^^ I haven't gone thorough the specifications, but one can easily say that having a twin rotor always on top, will make it nothing more then high speed helicopters.

Meaning you will not get much fuel advantage, rotor blades will present greater drag, as speed picks up. You will need to keep rotating the top rotor blades for lift (extra fuel).
No advantage of air refueling(top rotor blade will present the obstruction),limited range.
less payload
Not much speed advantage, because ultimately it is nothing more then a heli with an extra forward pushing engine.
 
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cloud

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Sikorsky says that the X2 at 210-220kt speed has the same fuel flow as a conventional helo at 120-130kt due to its improved lift-to-drag ratio

Sikorsky X2 speed king - Facts, figures and sail fairings... - As The Croft Flies



X2 Fuel Economy - 3.98 km per litre/9.36 NM per gallon

Welcome to Aircraft Compare

V-22 Fuel Economy - 0.21 km per litre/0.49 NM per gallon

Welcome to Aircraft Compare
Here , X2 is like motorcycle(Max takeoff weight 3600kg) in front of a truck(V22, max take-off weight 28000 kg), you can't compare the fuel efficiency between a bike and a truck as such, also for X2 all the claims have yet to be verified in real life condition, A Heli design can never be more efficient then an aircraft like design in cruising. Similarly an Aircraft can not match the hover(on small area) efficiency of a true Hali in the same category.

X2's real useful load wouldn't even cross 1000-1200kg probably.
 
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Rikbo88

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All EU weapons and platforms are hella expensive, they quite simply lack adequate orders or volumes of production to offer competitive pricing.

Looking at the fact that IN already has Harpoons, MK-54 ordered, they can continue with ordering the SLAM-ER as well for the P-8I as well. S-70is the ideal chopper for the MRH deal, 90+ of these birds could be awesome. V-22 deal should be separate since it is for a different use.
Don't confuse the S-70i with the S-70B, two very different A/C. S-70i is the international version of the Blackhawk. V-22 is a very different A/C as you noted. Not suited for an MRH role.
 

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