MRCA news and discussion /feb-june 2009

[Payeng]

The Gripen is a little newer than the Rafale and has a cool data link/feed structure. Read my above post Payeng. With that said, I think that the Rafale should win because it will require much less change in infrastructure and moreover the French have promised that they will give us the software codes for the Radar on the Rafale. This would enable us to reprogram the radar depending on the mission and not be dependent on foreign powers.

Not exactly my answer, I was asking for the reason behind Gripen.:sCh_coplight:

 

[Payeng]

once again,


The Gripen is a little newer than the Rafale and has a cool data link/feed structure. Read my above post Payeng. With that said, I think that the Rafale should win because it will require much less change in infrastructure and moreover the French have promised that they will give us the software codes for the Radar on the Rafale. This would enable us to reprogram the radar depending on the mission and not be dependent on foreign powers.

Hey you are confusing me I did support Rafale and my arguments would be in favour of Rafale, only I want to know the factors behind a Gripen vote.

 

[pyromaniac]

Not exactly my answer, I was asking for the reason behind Gripen.:sCh_coplight:

As far as the Gripen is concerned, well it is the smallest aircraft and it has a nice data link feature. Choosing the Gripen would mean that there is virtually no chance of an "embargo" placed on India. Also, there is not a large order for it which would mean that India would get them soon.

Also, the NG version will be outfitted with this baby; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414

 

[Triton]

I don't think so Gripen will make it as IAF is looking for a medium range fighter which will fill the gap between light weight point defense fighter LCA and the heavy multi-role SU30MKI. If everything goes well LCA can match up with Gripen & that leaves Rafele as one of the main contender. But Govt to Govt deals with no strings attached and all surety from US; we might go for SH18.

No body can predict which one of these aircraft we will go for, but based on the technology I wish we would go for EF. But we need to consider many other thing like the Engine factor (Twin or Single), price, technology, range, RCS, existing infrastructure, training, supply of spare parts & many more before we choose one.

 

[Payeng]

Plz don't mind I would answer your point by point 'cause I am a bit busy here

Also, the NG version will be outfitted with this baby; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414

But the same advantage also have its flaws, even with the F414 it would loose out in the TWR and the MTOW battle, more over its weight category is considered as light weight than a medium weight, its MTOW is quite close to Hal Tejas, considering that IAF would end up with two light fighters.

now the flaw is that uncle sam attach a lots of strings with its offerings and Indian MRCA may end up as a showpiece doing no real battle.

 

[Payeng]

Also, there is not a large order for it which would mean that India would get them soon.
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Rafale had not recorded a single order yet and dealing with them would be easier.

 

[Payeng]

I don't think so Gripen will make it as IAF is looking for a medium range fighter which will fill the gap between light weight point defense fighter LCA and the heavy multi-role SU30MKI. If everything goes well LCA can match up with Gripen & that leaves Rafele as one of the main contender. But Govt to Govt deals with no strings attached and all surety from US; we might go for SH18.

No body can predict which one of these aircraft we will go for, but based on the technology I wish we would go for EF. But we need to consider many other thing like the Engine factor (Twin or Single), price, technology, range, RCS, existing infrastructure, training, supply of spare parts & many more before we choose one.

Although I agree with most of your views I would put a big NO for EF, its super costly and we would end up with two ...err Main Fighters, it is not what we want but it is what we need, we have the heavy we are going for the light in home and the need is medium.

 

[Triton]

Although I agree with most of your views I would put a big NO for EF, its super costly and we would end up with two ...err Main Fighters, it is not what we want but it is what we need, we have the heavy we are going for the light in home and the need is medium.

I know EF is a multi-role fighter and its cost; I was pointing EF based on its technology.

 

[Payeng]

oops I got it wrong EF is considered as medium but its role would be that of the Su 30's and we need to fill the gap and we need no....err Main fighter(that is comparable to our Su's) and at that killer cost our future procurement planning might get effected. Since we are to step in the so called 5th generation era.

 

[Payeng]

I know EF is a heavy range fighter and its cost; I was pointing EF based on its technology.

You are right in the technological aspect Triton, yet do you believe in the old saying 'too many cooks spoil the broth' here it had effected in its procurement cost and not to mention the ToT, suppose we end up getting the technologies when we already have FGFA/PAK-FA.

Honestly speaking I don't know the complexities with dealing with a consortium.

 

[Payeng]

Till now votes are not casted for Mig-35 and the F-18 which I think would be the next best choice if not the Rafale.

 

[shiv]

you guys are also not looking at the fact that the GRIPEN has US engine,weapons,subcomponents and critical parts.....

if we are rejecting the SH for the reason of unreliability of US then we should also rule out the gripen....

my vote - rafael-->remember it all started with a plan for induction of more mirages...plus we are getting complete tot on the plane as well as the aesa on it....which can help us with our MMR radar for LCA,heck we can put the same AESA in LCA....see there are a lot of pros if we buy the rafael....and you gotta admit--->it is one good fighting beast///

 

[Triton]

You are right in the technological aspect Triton, yet do you believe in the old saying 'too many cooks spoil the broth' here it had effected in its procurement cost and not to mention the ToT, suppose we end up getting the technologies when we already have FGFA/PAK-FA.

Honestly speaking I don't know the complexities with dealing with a consortium.

True; considering the development of PAK-FA we need to think twice before investing on a costly fighter like EF; Last time I read that the consortium was ready to make India as a partner country in to the EF program with sharing of complete ToT. I am well aware of the pros and cons of this deal and I hardly think we will go for EF unless they offer some serious business along with it.

 

[Triton]

Till now votes are not casted for Mig-35 and the F-18 which I think would be the next best choice if not the Rafale.

Considering the problems with the Mig29 fighters and the recent Russian delays on several projects and the technology offered by the other contenders, I don't think so Mig35 would make to the end stage of the MRCA deal. SH18 with its radar is one of the BEST choice if they come with out any strings attached.

 

[Payeng]

you guys are also not looking at the fact that the GRIPEN has US engine,weapons,subcomponents and critical parts.....

if we are rejecting the SH for the reason of unreliability of US then we should also rule out the gripen....

my vote - rafael-->remember it all started with a plan for induction of more mirages...plus we are getting complete tot on the plane as well as the aesa on it....which can help us with our MMR radar for LCA,heck we can put the same AESA in LCA....see there are a lot of pros if we buy the rafael....and you gotta admit--->it is one good fighting beast///

Depends, one major factor that we dont know is the effeciency of the AESA radars from the various manufacturer, likewise we don't know many other factors which are confidential, moreover factors that will also be considered are political, diplomatic and ...err business issues. As we have seen the Indo-US nuclear deal a last minute gusture can redefine the whole story. So at present a technical evaluation is more feasible then mere diplomatic.

 

[shiv]

well ofcourse it can only be decided after the technical evaluation of all the bidding crafts...but the information we have,and our budget--->rafael seems to be the most logical choice,but its not the upto the airforce but for the politicians to decide...........

 

[Payeng]

Considering the problems with the Mig29 fighters and the recent Russian delays on several projects and the technology offered by the other contenders, I don't think so Mig35 would make to the end stage of the MRCA deal. SH18 with its radar is one of the BEST choice if they come with out any strings attached.

Yes, Mig 29 story sounds really sad even IAF have about 70 and IN to be about 16 and more in future, considering the time of test evaluation on April, May of this year it is a bad news, lets hope the problem get ratified soon, also their are various reports of delay and problems in ToTs, but Russia remains a traditional friend of a very traditional nation and thier are a lots of reason that binds India and Russia so they always have a privilege with us. Such problems would result in a word 'ratify' rather then a 'NO' also to note that after all this hiccups yet India goes for FGFA/PAK-FA and F-MBT, it is also considered that in an event of war with Pakistan Russia is a permanent VETO for India, in this aspect it is not a compromise in our national security.

 

[Atul]

Yes France has a good records of Supporting INDIA, It has also supported pakistan with the Agosta-90B. ( to french it Means Pure Business )

The Rafale has one big disadvantage, it has not got a single foreign sales Order in hand. Remember the IAF has to have a spares support for to be selected Aircraft for atleast next 30 years. ( the IAF still operates the MIG 21's, JAGUARS etc...) so spares support & mid life upgrades are a need of time.

I personally believe that this was one of the reasons that the Mirage-2000-5 was withdrawn from the MRCA.

If Rafale is unable to have a good number of order soon, this fantastic jet might soon go off shelf. :vehicle_plane:

 

[Payeng]

but its not the upto the airforce but for the politicians to decide...........

Dont you think that our politicians consults our defense planners?

 

[shiv]

OF course it is upto the defense planners to decide upon the aircraft....but for a order of this magnitude it is completely political....one example when the bofors gun outstripped every competitor and army selected it,it had to back down because the government(upa) dint want the BOFORS name anywhere near it...now the army has to do please it self with the second best......