Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

Vishalreddy3

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How many different rounds you want in the infantry to create a logistics nightmare?
@MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00 : YES!
When any organisation or department is well planned and organised orderly, then there wouldn't be anything call logistical constraints!! There is a reason why there is no logistical nightmare in US Armed forces, since they are really well organised.
 

ManhattanProject

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Designing BPJ's to protect soldiers from various types of assault rifle rounds is not a simple affair as we have to keep the weight of the BPJ's within limits. No purpose will be served if the weight becomes a burden on the soldier.

An outlandish idea. We use Explosive Reactive Armour panels to protect battle tanks against incoming anti tank rounds, RPG's, ATGM etc. This is done to reduce the kinetic energy of the incoming projectile and deflect it. Why not apply the same principle to design micro ERA panels for BPJ's. The rifle round whether it is a 5.56 or 7.62 mm one is essentially a projectile and a micro ERA panel will reduce its energy and deflect it. Instead of continuously increasing the thickness of the BPJ's and adding weight to resist new rounds like the steel core ones, application of micro ERA over a base armour will reduce the weight of the BPJ's.

It will not be easy to fabricate because of the technical challenges. The micro ERA panels should not become a fire hazard for the soldier and the deflected bullet should be captured in a mesh like layer beneath the ERA. Also the micro ERA panels should be thermally stable and not explode when the soldier falls down. Only a high temperature and high velocity projectile like a bullet should be able to detonate it.

We have arrived in the nano technology age and there are miniature robots which can travel through a human blood vessel to remove blood clots. So such a degree of miniaturisation gives hope that very small ERA panels can be developed.

I will agree that the suggestion is controversial. But who knows. It might be possible one day.
its not just about design, its about cost as well, you cant equip every soldier with iron man suits, the cost would be enormous.
And the stuff you are talking about belongs in the mcu not real life.
 

Killbot

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You are saying 10.5” do you even know thats 4” or 10.8 cm shorter than what a Carbine is as per definition? If I had a choice I would have gone for a 13.5 inch Carbine.
View attachment 64447
From top to bottom: M16A1, M16A2, M4A1, M16A4.
Agree with 13.5".
A carbine is by definition any gun having a barrel length less than 20". It is a WW2 era term. But it is used to represent rifles with barrel length less than 16" in modern times. So any rifle having a barrel length of less than 16" is a carbine. Including SMGs, Pistol caliber PDWs, and everything else that isn't a handgun.
Hence, all Car 816 variants that have barrel length less than 16" are carbines.
And 14.5" barrel is too long for CQB, if you don't believe me, ask any western CT unit. They are not stupid to have switched to 'carbines' with 10.5"/11.5"/12.5" barrels.
 

FalconSlayers

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When any organisation or department is well planned and organised orderly, then there wouldn't be anything call logistical constraints!! There is a reason why there is no logistical nightmare in US Armed forces, since they are really well organised.
Lol bro, US Army uses only 5.56x45 NATO as standard cartridge and the reason why they lost majority of their wars because of their M4A1s being jammed easily plus lack of variety, they use M4A1s for everything, for Battle Rifles, Assault Rifles and Carbines. One benefit, everyone has same ammo but costs inability to do the job required.
 

Killbot

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When any organisation or department is well planned and organised orderly, then there wouldn't be anything call logistical constraints!! There is a reason why there is no logistical nightmare in US Armed forces, since they are really well organised.
There is no problem with OS Army logistics because they use fewer calibers. Our current procurements are a fuck up. There is no sugarcoating that. Army'll come to their senses only after logistical failures screw them over.
 

Killbot

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Lol bro, US Army uses only 5.56x45 NATO as standard cartridge and the reason why they lost majority of their wars because of their M4A1s being jammed easily plus lack of variety, they use M4A1s for everything, for Battle Rifles, Assault Rifles and Carbines. One benefit, everyone has same ammo but costs inability to do the job required.
No 'inability to do the required job'. I probably sound like a broken record now, but 5.56 is perfectly adequate if you are using modern ammo like M855A1.
 

ezsasa

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There is no problem with OS Army logistics because they use fewer calibers. Our current procurements are a fuck up. There is no sugarcoating that. Army'll come to their senses only after logistical failures screw them over.
I have been hearing about this Logistics argument for years now, let me try to understand this once again.
Depending on the type of Coy, the type and quantity of calibre is more or less fixed for that particular unit.

In the new setup, if AK does get inducted into infantry, 5.56 will be replaced by 7.62 AK. There is no big change as far as ammo is concerned, since 7.62 will be issued instead of 5.56.

Ghatak platoon loadout remains the same.
Para SF CoY loadout remains the same.
The number of LMG & MMG will remain the same.
There will be a period where AK & INSAS, co-exist at a regiment level. eventually INSAS will be phased out.

is my understanding correct?
 

Lancer

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Designing BPJ's to protect soldiers from various types of assault rifle rounds is not a simple affair as we have to keep the weight of the BPJ's within limits. No purpose will be served if the weight becomes a burden on the soldier.

An outlandish idea. We use Explosive Reactive Armour panels to protect battle tanks against incoming anti tank rounds, RPG's, ATGM etc. This is done to reduce the kinetic energy of the incoming projectile and deflect it. Why not apply the same principle to design micro ERA panels for BPJ's. The rifle round whether it is a 5.56 or 7.62 mm one is essentially a projectile and a micro ERA panel will reduce its energy and deflect it. Instead of continuously increasing the thickness of the BPJ's and adding weight to resist new rounds like the steel core ones, application of micro ERA over a base armour will reduce the weight of the BPJ's.

It will not be easy to fabricate because of the technical challenges. The micro ERA panels should not become a fire hazard for the soldier and the deflected bullet should be captured in a mesh like layer beneath the ERA. Also the micro ERA panels should be thermally stable and not explode when the soldier falls down. Only a high temperature and high velocity projectile like a bullet should be able to detonate it.

We have arrived in the nano technology age and there are miniature robots which can travel through a human blood vessel to remove blood clots. So such a degree of miniaturisation gives hope that very small ERA panels can be developed.

I will agree that the suggestion is controversial. But who knows. It might be possible one day.
As I showed in a response to Killbot (picture) - what I'm saying isn't uncommon for BPJ's at all.

As for your idea, that's an interesting concept; but of course you'd have to make sure that there are no problems for the soldier (stable panels, no issue with any debris when the bullet makes contact, ability to replace panels in a time and cost effective manner).
 

MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00

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How many different rounds you want in the infantry to create a logistics nightmare?
@MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00 : YES!
Yea I understand but with India having multiple types of weapons, thousands of them issued to the troops and Babus in the Government and Army taking years just to standardize equipment and weapons. it will take years to have just couple of standard caliber types. The ones I mentioned are produced or going to get produced by all major weapon producers and exporters.
 

FalconSlayers

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Carbine=SBR=PDW.
If you are buying 14.5", it is the same as buying 16". It is practically a full size rifle. They call the M4 a carbine, but it is a full size rifle. Because 14.5" offers about the same ballistics as 16". It is only 1.5" smaller. Buying it for CQC makes no sense, as you would ideally want a smaller weapon than 14.5". 10.5" is perfect for IA's requirements.
CQC doesn’t mean room clearing, or CICT ops, you are going to use it in a battlefield with enemies in front of you, even OFB’s Amogh Carbine and new CQB carbine both have 13” and 13.5” barrels respectively. Plus the F90 was also in competition so obviously its CQB variant was offered which itself has a 14.3” Barrel.
1603769110504.jpeg

1603769313925.jpeg

1603769363716.jpeg
 

Killbot

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I have been hearing about this Logistics argument for years now, let me try to understand this once again.
Depending on the type of Coy, the type and quantity of calibre is more or less fixed for that particular unit.

In the new setup, if AK does get inducted into infantry, 5.56 will be replaced by 7.62 AK. There is no big change as far as ammo is concerned, since 7.62 will be issued instead of 5.56.

Ghatak platoon loadout remains the same.
Para SF CoY loadout remains the same.
The number of LMG & MMG will remain the same.
There will be a period where AK & INSAS, co-exist at a regiment level. eventually INSAS will be phased out.

is my understanding correct?
Each Bn has to buy new types of ammo. Thwy have to correctly issue three different types of ammo to soldiers of each company. And there will be 4 different firearms in one company. Servicing, spares, etc take a huge hit. They have to issue different firearms to ghataks. And everyone needs to be retrained. In 4 different weapon systems at that. There are a lot of things to consider while talking about logistics... Having a single weapon system in different calibers of ammo would be best.
Like the Galil ACE in 7.62x39, 7.62x51 and 5.56x45. And a different LMG. Servicing and spares will still be a problem, but not as big as whats gonna happen as things stand. And training becomes a whole lot more easy.
 

Killbot

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CQC doesn’t mean room clearing, or CICT ops, you are going to use it in a battlefield with enemies in front of you, even OFB’s Amogh Carbine and new CQB carbine both have 13” and 13.5” barrels respectively. Plus the F90 was also in competition so obviously its CQB variant was offered which itself has a 14.3” Barrel.
View attachment 64478
View attachment 64479
View attachment 64480
CQC is close quarters combat. It could be anywhere. Welcome to 5th Gen warfare. Wars ain't gonna be fought exclusively on the 'battlefield', whatever that is. And like I said, 14.5" is overkill for CQC. 10.5" is adequate, and it is lighter. Makes no sense to go for 14.5". And Thales F90 is a bullpup. It can't be smaller than what Thales is offering, or they need to change the overall design. And it spews gas in your face, making Bullpup design bad for CQC, where speed is of the essence.
As for OFB, why are you even counting them in? All their designs are shitty, without exception. Btw Insas has an 18.3" barrel, and is effective only up to 400m.
 

FalconSlayers

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CQC is close quarters combat. It could be anywhere. Welcome to 5th Gen warfare. Wars ain't gonna be fought exclusively on the 'battlefield', whatever that is. And like I said, 14.5" is overkill for CQC. 10.5" is adequate, and it is lighter. Makes no sense to go for 14.5". And Thales F90 is a bullpup. It can't be smaller than what Thales is offering, or they need to change the overall design. And it spews gas in your face, making Bullpup design bad for CQC, where speed is of the essence.
As for OFB, why are you even counting them in? All their designs are shitty, without exception. Btw Insas has an 18.3" barrel, and is effective only up to 400m.
4 Lakh soldiers of your Army unable to hit beyond 200 metres is what Army’s requirement is?

If the order had been for 40-50 thousand units I could have agreed these are 10.5” variants but you’re equipping your soldiers with something that can be effective in battlefield, I guess you have seen Uri: The Surgical Strikes where ParaSF were using 10.5” carbines but CQB in a war is different from it, it is for spec ops forces who get closer stealthily and then wreck havoc on the enemies but an infantry guy has to exchange fire and get closer to the enemy fighting and if he manages to go near will be able to use 10.5” Rifles. A 10.5” is more of a SOF weapon.

A carbine by definition has a 14.5”barrel plus an infantry guy using a 14.5” carbine can exchange fire and can wreck havoc in close ranges Like US Army and Marine corps.
1603772004925.jpeg
 

Killbot

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4 Lakh soldiers of your Army unable to hit beyond 200 metres is what Army’s requirement is?

If the order had been for 40-50 thousand units I could have agreed these are 10.5” variants but you’re equipping your soldiers with something that can be effective in battlefield, I guess you have seen Uri: The Surgical Strikes where ParaSF were using 10.5” carbines but CQB in a war is different from it, it is for spec ops forces who get closer stealthily and then wreck havoc on the enemies but an infantry guy has to exchange fire and get closer to the enemy fighting and if he manages to go near will be able to use 10.5” Rifles. A 10.5” is more of a SOF weapon.

A carbine by definition has a 14.5”barrel plus an infantry guy using a 14.5” carbine can exchange fire and can wreck havoc in close ranges Like US Army and Marine corps.
View attachment 64487
Those 4 lakh are COIN, Mech Inf, Ghataks (Small number) Tank crews, etc. So no they don't need to hit beyond 200m. And everything the US does is not a gospel. Rest of your argument falls apart. They are meant to replace 9mm carbine. And again, M4 is a service rifle. I am not gonna repeat myself again so let's just agree to disagree. If you are still of the same opinion, that is.
 

FalconSlayers

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Those 4 lakh are COIN, Mech Inf, Ghataks (Small number) Tank crews, etc. So no they don't need to hit beyond 200m. And everything the US does is not a gospel. Rest of your argument falls apart. They are meant to replace 9mm carbine. And again, M4 is a service rifle. I am not gonna repeat myself again so let's just agree to disagree. If you are still of the same opinion, that is.
1/3rd of the Army is COIN, Mech Inf and Ghataks? Ghataks use Tavors and MP9s for CQB, RR will stick to Kalashnikovs considering J&K and Rest of India has is almost going to be terror free in next 3-5 years max to max.

There are 65 RR Battalions means 39,000 RR soldiers, India has 4,300 tanks so considering each tank has a crew of 4, Total tank crew = 17200, 8,686 AFVs considering each having a crew of 3, total crew = 26,058. Total = 82,255, so are the rest 3 lakh 20 thousand in the Artillery?

Think again Bruh...!!!
 

Tridev123

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he was making a joke, no need to get butthurt over it.
Bro, I welcome constructive criticism and debate. But trolling?.
I only tossed an idea for debate. And I believe I based it on available technology.
ERA is a known technology. Can you elaborate which law of physics does not allow its miniaturisation. Please educate me.
Have I used Kryptonite(Suoerman's nemesis) or any other alien material or technology. Do terms like thermal stability come from Marvel Comics.

Come on, man. Tell me which part of the technologies are a steal from MCU.

I see you are a fan of the Yanks having a username Manhattan Project.
Have you heard of research being conducted in the US on developing an Invisibility cloak, the stuff of Harry Potter comics. Please Google it. It is being attempted using laws of physics and not Abra Doobra magic.

Must have heard of DARPA in the US. They develop esoteric technologies. Some of their project proposals are beyond our imagination. Please go through website of DARPA and their list of projects (not everything is made public).

Regarding the cost of a BPJ using a ERA embedded layer sandwiched between two other protective layers, I agree it is a valid point. But new products and technologies will usually be expensive and the cost could come down with economies of scale. Example foldable screen smart phones cost upwards of a lakh of rupees but prices are expected to come down in the next few years.

Have an open mind, Bro. Peace.
 

Killbot

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1/3rd of the Army is COIN, Mech Inf and Ghataks? Ghataks use Tavors and MP9s for CQB, RR will stick to Kalashnikovs considering J&K and Rest of India has is almost going to be terror free in next 3-5 years max to max.

There are 65 RR Battalions means 39,000 RR soldiers, India has 4,300 tanks so considering each tank has a crew of 4, Total tank crew = 17200, 8,686 AFVs considering each having a crew of 3, total crew = 26,058. Total = 82,255, so are the rest 3 lakh 20 thousand in the Artillery?

Think again Bruh...!!!
Well I'm sure the army is so stupid that they don't know how many soldiers they have. And hence they set these stupid (this is true) GSQRs. And like I said, I don't wanna get in an argument with you, so let's just agree to disagree. Peace.
 

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