Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[Bleh]

So you want the soldier to take two types of grenades whenever he buttons up ? And how many ? Then you expect his officer to order " Offensive Grenade fenk" Nahin Nahin " Defensive Grenade Nikal - Fenk" ... come on DODO....

Not practicable ? only applicable for DODO classes in five star college by the side of tourist lake in Pune.

Yes, everybody is dumb. DRDO are dumb, Armies across the world are dumb.

If you're so smart then how come you aren't in DRDO?... showing the dumb scientists how shit is done? Eh? Awkat problems?

Which world are you living in? Have you heard of something called GSQR?

As @Okabe Rintarou said he's a "veteran".
What qualification does the Armed forces have to give GSQR! Didn't you read? It's all too "bookish".

Because obviously they cant carry the grenades with the frag-casing & remove it while room clearance or assaulting. They're not as smart as him.

 

[Bhadra]

Which world are you living in? Have you heard of something called GSQR?

I do not live in the world of Laboratories and GSQRs, though I have been through both. I live in a world where grenades rip you apart, where the small American grenade can put hundreds of steel balls into your belly and chest. One may not be killed but the surgeon will take minimum one month to take out those pallets / balls out of your body and then it is minimum two years before one becomes soldier again.

GSQRs are not holy Bible or Bhagwat Geeta. There many "staff" types of dreamers in the corridors of Delhi. That does not absolve DODOs of their sins .

Battery operated grenades to be used in Havelock Isle, Demchok or North Sikkim or at Bum La . Come off it !

 

[Bleh]

Battery operated grenades to be used in Havelock Isle, Demchok or North Sikkim or at Bum La . Come off it !

Ofcourse those grenades would be inducted without being tested in those cold/humid/arid conditions.

And at those height & climates comm devices, optics, NVGs etc. don't run on batteries but by the power of the universe.

 

[Bhadra]

Yes, everybody is dumb. DRDO are dumb, Armies across the world are dumb.

If you're so smart then how come you aren't in DRDO?... showing the dumb scientists how shit is done? Eh? Awkat ?



As @Okabe Rintarou said he's a "veteran".
What qualification does the Armed forces have to give GSQR! Didn't you read? It's all too "bookish".

Because obviously they cant carry the grenades with the frag-casing & remove it while room clearance or assaulting. They're not as smart as him.

Please do not mind my observations / reply to your valid questions...

I am not smart enough to be there in DRDO because firstly I am not a third divisioner from some God forsaken institute where I could get admission in reservation category. Secondly, I do not belong to Reservation class / cast to be in DRDO... and thirdly I needed a job when I was barely 20 / 21 and joined Armed Forces ( largest numbers of reservation classes are in Armed Forces though without a certificate from a DC). DRDO would not have employed me even as a peon at the age of 20 / 21 without those conditions.

That is why I am not the worse class called "Defense Professional" as the Forum has categorised me.. To be thrust down upon as one of you said with "multi" grenades with "Offensive" and "Defensive" roles and "electronic" being battery operated at - 50 and +50 C o.

Pray tell me when you guys will be able to make one "electronic" fuse for any artillery bomb ? At least not in previous 40 years .....

 

[Bhadra]

Ofcourse those grenades would be inducted without being tested in those cold/humid/arid conditions.

And at those height & climates comm devices, optics, NVGs etc. don't run on batteries but by the power of the universe.

Sir, how many times do you wish me to impress upon you the idea that grenades for a soldier is so fundamental that it must me free from all encumbrances. It must be simple and stupid. It must work even when nothing else works.

Indian Army is not US, Russian / European / NATO armies with operational scenarios envisioned for them in the vastly developed and beautiful rolling plains and meadows of Western Europe, Eurasia, Balkan , Turkey or Middle East . Nor is it in vastly developed Japan or Korea. In those areas the Armies will find thousands of lithium batteries even in rubble and junk. Supply situation and supply system for those armies are good.

Lithium batteries in India - it is difficult to find in Delhi what to talk of Baramulla. Jehadies get their batteries in those ares after spending a big fortune and through very extensive network of local support channels. Lithium batteries require proper and good storage facilities which are mostly not available.

On LC, our soldiers mostly stay in bunkers on tin sheds, bahak made on reverse slops as opposed to air conditioned labs in Leh or Manali. Most of the time communication system, hand held jigmos like sights and sensors do not work mainly due to discharged or dead batteries.

My point was that IA and DRDO should plan to fight battles realistically rather than as science fiction or you Tube video or a power point presentation. When we know that why can we provide good optical, mechanical, collimetered, telescoped sights to begin with. Why can not we develop a good telescope, good binocular, a good compass for our forces ? you only want to get Padma award by making "Agni" missile.

Indian supply chain management is not structured, suited and geared up to fight a modern war under modern conditions but only meant to feed the Armies for colonial occupation. I still remember LST and other ships of IN carrying live goats to Sri Lanka to be "thrust down" on soldiers there and soldiers surviving on Churut and very special old arak. Thousands of Lithium batteries being supplied into those thick jungles of Vani - Vavuniya and Mullaitivu .... unimaginable.

For a soldier specially an infantryman his rifle and his grenade are his Gods and those must not go DODO or dud or he is dead. Soldier is dead long live DRDO....

 

[sorcerer]

This belongs here



DFIans can put their heads together come up with something awesome..
PS: All hardware made by DFIans should have the #PKMKB sticker on it..

 

[Bhadra]

I can guarantee you only one thing.
Someone from Army / DRDO / OFB might have "thrust" down these grenades down the soldiers but lloking at those, India will ultimately land up importing grenades from China or Europe or USA.

In the same time someone may be busy selling dreams of self growing bio-grenades with BT / Monsanto or DRDO Bioscience Lab grown seeds to the future generals.

 

[Prashant12]

Chief of Army Staff, General Rawat appreciated and urged integration of our clip-on sight - Raptor with recently purchased Sig Sauer and AK assault-rifles

 

[Chinmoy]

I stand corrected. Its not the blast radius but the fragmentation radius. And as per the figure provided by @porky_kicker in his post #862, its not 3m offensive, 5m defensive. Rather it is 5 meters offensive with less but lethal shrapnel and a sleeve that adds more shrapnel (thereby reducing their speed and lethality) which fly out to 8-10 meters. One question though: Since the charge is same in both modes, and the shrapnel amount less in the offensive mode, why do the shrapnel not fly further out than in defensive mode?


But my point of deciding the mode you want to use before the mission still applies. If you find it hard to train your men to screw on a sleeve and explain to them what different purposes it serves, then you can simply teach them about two grenades and let the CQM worry about which grenade gets issued for which mission.

Of course it will be ideal if the soldiers learn to switch the grenade mode in field, but many times during a firefight which starts unexpectedly, you don't get the reaction time to to unscrew a sleeve off a grenade before tossing it. So @Bhadra sir's point is somewhat valid. You might get ambushed and your first action is defensive. Then before you know it, you are rallying and counterattacking, so you don't get the time to unscrew a bloody sleeve. But @Bhadra sir, for such cases, you need to develop SOPs. For example, you could ask the soldiers on a patrol to carry around grenades only in offensive mode. But when you take a position, there is some time to prepare before you can expect an enemy counterattack. Teach the soldiers to screw on the sleeves in their grenades then. This is not the best SOP. But all I am saying is that Army can develop the correct SOP for this piece of equipment according to their experience.


A little more respect please. He is a veteran.

@Bleh Don't confuse in Multimode being Offensive mode or deffensive mode.@Bhadra No need to get hyper on every issue and call out any research and development as DODO, no matter how trivial it may look to you.

Multimode Shivalik grenade in MULTI MODE in its use. The same grenade could be used in Hand MODE as well as Rifle Launch MODE.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/oct1999/arma.htm

DRDO has developed a general purpose antipersonnel grenade, named Shivalik, for use in offensive and defensive role in the hand mode and for launching from the rifle by using normal ball ammunition.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Hey is this possible? Its an Idea- peltier heated or cooled body armor and also battle uniforms. Chick this out-


A good design with a nice helmet manufacturer and you have an air conditioned helmet, this can be done for motorcycles with the suit too being heated or cooled, with silicone graphite crystal batteries.


Endless power! Forget about your solar power dependence.
For the guys that dont know watch the following video.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Another video about silicone graphite batteries for your reference. And these can power mass atmospheric water generators for farming. We are now looking at endless possibilities without power/water wars at least.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_water_generator

 

[Gessler]

Close-up + filter

 

[Prashant12]

Army set to get its first consignment of Spike anti-tank guided missiles under emergency purchases


New Delhi: The Israeli Spike anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) is a weapon system the Indian army has been looking for, particularly to protect its infantrymen and then, its tanks against enemy armour. Now, after months of waiting, the Army will get its first consignment-- a small one, though-- of the Spike.

The Rs 280 crore deal gets the Army 210 missiles and 12 launchers with delivery expected soon. The deal is part of the 'emergency purchase' mechanism that the armed forces are allowed, and in the wake of the Indian Air Force's strike on terror camps in Balakot, deep inside Pakistan and the Pakistani Army moving some of its troops right to the border, much required.

According to the rules, the Army vice chief is allowed Rs 300 crore for emergency purchases, and last weekend, this was cleared after the Army Commanders' Conference. Senior army officials said the previous effort-- a much larger deal-- was stuck; discussions were still going on with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

While that deal related to a weapon-system that was 'third-generation,' this purchase is of a new, 'fourth-generation' missile with superior performance. The Emergency Purchase provision was used primarily because such purchases during the time of elections are usually more difficult. The Spike is likely to be effective against reactive armour; the 4 km range is also a positive.

Of course, it is a small order. But if the Spike proves to be effective, a larger order could happen in the future.

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...ded-missiles-under-emergency-purchases/400825

 

[Arihant Roy]

Army set to get its first consignment of Spike anti-tank guided missiles under emergency purchases


New Delhi: The Israeli Spike anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) is a weapon system the Indian army has been looking for, particularly to protect its infantrymen and then, its tanks against enemy armour. Now, after months of waiting, the Army will get its first consignment-- a small one, though-- of the Spike.

The Rs 280 crore deal gets the Army 210 missiles and 12 launchers with delivery expected soon. The deal is part of the 'emergency purchase' mechanism that the armed forces are allowed, and in the wake of the Indian Air Force's strike on terror camps in Balakot, deep inside Pakistan and the Pakistani Army moving some of its troops right to the border, much required.

According to the rules, the Army vice chief is allowed Rs 300 crore for emergency purchases, and last weekend, this was cleared after the Army Commanders' Conference. Senior army officials said the previous effort-- a much larger deal-- was stuck; discussions were still going on with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

While that deal related to a weapon-system that was 'third-generation,' this purchase is of a new, 'fourth-generation' missile with superior performance. The Emergency Purchase provision was used primarily because such purchases during the time of elections are usually more difficult. The Spike is likely to be effective against reactive armour; the 4 km range is also a positive.

Of course, it is a small order. But if the Spike proves to be effective, a larger order could happen in the future.

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...ded-missiles-under-emergency-purchases/400825

So we are getting the new Spike LR2 missile.

The missile round weighs just 12.7 kgs and has a range of 5.5 km when launched from ground.

The best thing is you can feed in grid coordinates into the missile guidance unit and the missile will reach the grid using an imu.

 

[Bhadra]

@Bleh Don't confuse in Multimode being Offensive mode or deffensive mode.@Bhadra No need to get hyper on every issue and call out any research and development as DODO, no matter how trivial it may look to you.

Multimode Shivalik grenade in MULTI MODE in its use. The same grenade could be used in Hand MODE as well as Rifle Launch MODE.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/oct1999/arma.htm

Answer the issue raised by me rather than handing over your sermon with BS. You may be trying something in good faith but that necessarily may not be logical and correct. In what capacity are you labelling my sensitivity ?

Those who introduced INSAS were not rogues but it did not turn out as per the belief of those in charge.

Well, if you have no answer, then throw some mud on the issue and carry on as you seem to have done so far rather than BS after 3 moths and 20 posts.

 

[Bhadra]

The Gurus here tell me ... since the topic has again been started.
A soldier of RR battalion in the valley goes out as part of CASO. Which grenade should he carry ?
Ok he carries two offensive grenades.
While near a house the party is fired upon and the soldier takes shelter and position inside the nearest room to , locate, identify and engage a target
He suddenly sees two terrorist running towards the room he is in.
Which grenade should he throw ? He has no so called defensive grenade?
The terrorist do not enter the room but go into nearby cow shed.
He with his buddy are ordered to charge into cow shed?
Which grenade should he use ?

Even if soldiers are given grenades called "Offensive" and sleeves to put on top of it for it to become "defensive" will the situation, time and gravity of operations allow that because throwing grenade is generally the last resort of CQB.

All operation change from Offensive to Defensive and vise versa as per progress of the battle. Soldiers in trenches are in Defense but in no time they may be asked to take back a captured bunker by attacking it. What will he do? Start looking for "offensive" grenade ?

I may be absolute dud who is not understanding the geniusness of such wonderful grenade !!

 

[Kay]

The Gurus here tell me ... since the topic has again been started.
A soldier of RR battalion in the valley goes out as part of CASO. Which grenade should he carry ?
Ok he carries two offensive grenades.
While near a house the party is fired upon and the soldier takes shelter and position inside the nearest room to , locate, identify and engage a target
He suddenly sees two terrorist running towards the room he is in.
Which grenade should he throw ? He has no so called defensive grenade?
The terrorist do not enter the room but go into nearby cow shed.
He with his buddy are ordered to charge into cow shed?
Which grenade should he use ?

Even if soldiers are given grenades called "Offensive" and sleeves to put on top of it for it to become "defensive" will the situation, time and gravity of operations allow that because throwing grenade is generally the last resort of CQB.

All operation change from Offensive to Defensive and vise versa as per progress of the battle. Soldiers in trenches are in Defense but in no time they may be asked to take back a captured bunker by attacking it. What will he do? Start looking for "offensive" grenade ?

I may be absolute dud who is not understanding the geniusness of such wonderful grenade !!

Just a conjecture from non-guru:
It would be offensive at all times, except you are in the bunker or trench and all your buddies are inside and well protected from sharpnels. If you are holding a point, or making a last stand - fix grenade sleeves.

 

[Kay]

Just a conjecture from non-guru:
It would be offensive at all times, except you are in the bunker or trench and all your buddies are inside and well protected from sharpnels. If you are holding a point, or making a last stand - fix grenade sleeves.

US is making new grenades that can act as offensive or defensive using the flip of a switch. They can also adjust the timer up to milliseconds. Until that tech matures, fragmentation sleeves are the next best thing there is.
Role of offensive grenades in most cases have been taken over by grenades fired from launchers. The Shivalik also has a detachable launcher tube for use as rifle grenades, which the French still use today.

 

[Chinmoy]

Answer the issue raised by me rather than handing over your sermon with BS. You may be trying something in good faith but that necessarily may not be logical and correct. In what capacity are you labelling my sensitivity ?

Those who introduced INSAS were not rogues but it did not turn out as per the belief of those in charge.

Well, if you have no answer, then throw some mud on the issue and carry on as you seem to have done so far rather than BS after 3 moths and 20 posts.

The tag of defence professional under your profile name did elucidate respect initially, but seeing how you respond to things make me believe you to be a big farce.

So Einstein, could you kindly enlighten us on what is the biggest contribution of defence professionals like you on programmes like INSAS, since you brought it up.

 

[Anikastha]

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