Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[Kumaoni]

At least the LoC troops seem to be getting some love, that's a relief even if just a tiny one.

Yeah, but the thing is a war with pak won’t be fought just along the LoC

 

[Kumaoni]

These

why do they go kinda hard tho

 

[Blood+]

These

Looks kinda funny, doesn't it??

 

[Blood+]

Yeah, but the thing is a war with pak won’t be fought just along the LoC

I know, overall, the situation remains completely hopeless as of now.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Leaving aside Indian Army, there seems to be complete stagnation in infantry gear over the past 20 years. These IDF troops are equipped the same as they were 20 years ago. The US Army and Marines infantry gear haven't progressed much beyond their the 2003 Iraq invasion either. The only differences are high cut helmets and more ergonomic plate carriers. US army is introducing better NVG's too, but most militaries aren't doing that.

More importantly, every tom dick and harry, including terrorist organizations and some African countries, now deck out their troops with this gear, which used to be the preserve of only modern national militaries. This means that the technological edge that modern infantry used to enjoy against insurgents and poorer militaries is practically gone. Now you add the proliferation of cheap drones for surveillance and attack that are in the hands of these groups. The current situation is a far cry from when tangos only had AK's and RPG's, while counter terror units had a monopoly on NVG's, body armour, thermal imaging, and surveillance drones.

Countries with large defence budgets need to start concentrating serious R&D into infantry technology in order to regain a qualitative edge.

This is from today


This is from 2006

 

[abingdonboy]

Leaving aside Indian Army, there seems to be complete stagnation in infantry gear over the past 20 years. These IDF troops are equipped the same as they were 20 years ago. The US Army and Marines infantry gear haven't progressed much beyond their the 2003 Iraq invasion either. The only differences are high cut helmets and more ergonomic plate carriers. US army is introducing better NVG's too, but most militaries aren't doing that.

More importantly, every tom dick and harry, including terrorist organizations and some African countries, now deck out their troops with this gear, which used to be the preserve of only modern national militaries. This means that the technological edge that modern infantry used to enjoy against insurgents and poorer militaries is practically gone. Now you add the proliferation of cheap drones for surveillance and attack that are in the hands of these groups. The current situation is a far cry from when tangos only had AK's and RPG's, while counter terror units had a monopoly on NVG's, body armour, thermal imaging, and surveillance drones.

Countries with large defence budgets need to start concentrating serious R&D into infantry technology in order to regain a qualitative edge.

This is from today


This is from 2006

Well this is just completely wrong.

almost every single item carried by a NATO soldier today has gone through 3-4 iterations since 2003- from head to toe
Some decent insights into the different generations of gear as time went by

An even more in depth discussion:

2003 representative loadout:

- YouTube

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youtube.com

Here’s a video showing the generations of helmets:
(Roughly every 10-15 years they have updated theirs)

what they are 2-3 years away from having as standard issue (much of it already in service in some units)
https://youtu.be/C83QRz0lV9o?si=yoUz_-NmWaTTvhel
https://youtu.be/nund72CrtZo?si=i4_XRQ6uIIoRKJXL

Royal marines in early GWOT days vs ~10 years later vs today

if you actually think there’s been a stagnation in gear and infantry are equipped the same in 2023 as they were in 2003 then you don’t pay attention to details at all or pure Copoium to excuse the fact that the IA

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Well this is just completely wrong.

almost every single item carried by a NATO soldier today has gone through 3-4 iterations since 2003- from head to toe
Some decent insights into the different generations of gear as time went by

An even more in depth discussion:

2003 representative loadout:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

Here’s a video showing the generations of helmets:
(Roughly every 10-15 years they have updated theirs)

what they are 2-3 years away from having as standard issue (much of it already in service in some units)

Royal marines in early GWOT days vs ~10 years later vs today

if you actually think there’s been a stagnation in gear and infantry are equipped the same in 2023 as they were in 2003 then you don’t pay attention to details at all or pure Copoium to excuse the fact that the IA

View attachment 226251

View attachment 226252

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I know about the various iterations on each piece of kit. I'm saying there has been no major capability jump apart from incremental improvements. An American soldier in 2003 was significantly better equipped than one in 1983, due to the issuing of individual NVG's, Kevlar body Armour, and optics. Night fighting ability and much better survivability was a generational jump in capability.

Take another 20 year leap to 2023 vs 2003, and the changes are nothing groundbreaking to the capabilities a modern soldier had in 2003. And the context I'm pointing to is that modern infantrymen are losing the tech edge that they previously enjoyed over non state actors and poorer militaries in terms of infantry gear.

Regarding IA, there's zero copium from my end. They've refused to standardize regular infantry even to 2003 iraq invasion levels, leave aside 2023 gear.

 

[abingdonboy]

I know about the various iterations on each piece of kit. I'm saying there has been no major capability jump apart from incremental improvements. An American soldier in 2003 was significantly better equipped than one in 1983, due to the issuing of individual NVG's, Kevlar body Armour, and optics. Night fighting ability and much better survivability was a generational jump in capability.

Take another 20 year leap to 2023 vs 2003, and the changes are nothing groundbreaking to the capabilities a modern soldier had in 2003. And the context I'm pointing to is that modern infantrymen are losing the tech edge that they previously enjoyed over non state actors and poorer militaries in terms of infantry gear.

Regarding IA, there's zero copium from my end. They've refused to standardize regular infantry even to 2003 iraq invasion levels, leave aside 2023 gear.

I think you are missing the wood for the trees.

A plate carrier in 2003 might be similar in form to one in 2023 but almost everything about it is different from design to composition to ergonomics ditto helmets and the rest


and I still fundamentally reject the notion that modern infantry have lost the edge- between NODs/AR, optics (LVPOs) and C4I (ATAK, SDRs etc) becoming standard issue for INFANTRY this is a monumental jump in capabilities from even 10 years ago.

Gen 2 NVGs issues in the early GWOT are literally generations behind what they are getting today- in form they might be similar but in what they can do theres A huge performance differential

some rag tag militia LARPers (or Indians army£ wearing ill fitting high cuts or matching uniforms is not even remotely in the same ballpark.

infantry have always relied on 3 things- mobility, lethality and survivability in all 3 domains they dominate and it’s not even close.

mobility- lighter weight more ergonomic gear with superior performance
Lethality- more accurate weapons that are more reliable and more capable thanks to superior sights allow them to hit the enemy before they are even in range of them- at night it isn’t even a level playing field.
Survivability-all the protective stuff of today can protect against heavier calibres today than they could 10/20 years ago, the ACHs that IA have (20 year old tech by US standards) can only stop a 9mm, their now standard issue for the US army IHPS can stop an AK round

US/Western soldiers will see first, hit first and die less whilst the LARPers are still trying to zero their weapons

 

[nongaddarliberal]

I think you are missing the wood for the trees.

A plate carrier in 2003 might be similar in form to one in 2023 but almost everything about it is different from design to composition to ergonomics ditto helmets and the rest


and I still fundamentally reject the notion that modern infantry have lost the edge- between NODs/AR, optics (LVPOs) and C4I (ATAK, SDRs etc) becoming standard issue for INFANTRY this is a monumental jump in capabilities from even 10 years ago.

Gen 2 NVGs issues in the early GWOT are literally generations behind what they are getting today- in form they might be similar but in what they can do theres A huge performance differential

some rag tag militia LARPers (or Indians army£ wearing ill fitting high cuts or matching uniforms is not even remotely in the same ballpark.

infantry have always relied on 3 things- mobility, lethality and survivability in all 3 domains they dominate and it’s not even close.

mobility- lighter weight more ergonomic gear with superior performance
Lethality- more accurate weapons that are more reliable and more capable thanks to superior sights allow them to hit the enemy before they are even in range of them- at night it isn’t even a level playing field.
Survivability-all the protective stuff of today can protect against heavier calibres today than they could 10/20 years ago, the ACHs that IA have (20 year old tech by US standards) can only stop a 9mm, their now standard issue for the US army IHPS can stop an AK round

US/Western soldiers will see first, hit first and die less whilst the LARPers are still trying to zero their weapons

Then there's a disagreement on the significance of change here. What's happened over the past 20 years are improvements, but not a generational change as defined by bolt action to semi, then semi to assault rifle, or flak jacket to Kevlar, and no NODS to NODS.

If Augmented reality is made combat ready, in a way that a drone can tag enemies below, which will automatically appear on individual AR goggles, or the addition of aim assist for rifles (though the US is testing that out now), then that would qualify as a generational leap.

The new US army NODS are almost veering to AR territory by highlighting the outlines of troops and ground features automatically, but don't relay additional information and inputs from other sensors AFAIK to qualify as augmented reality.

 

[abingdonboy]

Then there's a disagreement on the significance of change here. What's happened over the past 20 years are improvements, but not a generational change as defined by bolt action to semi, then semi to assault rifle, or flak jacket to Kevlar, and no NODS to NODS.

If Augmented reality is made combat ready, in a way that a drone can tag enemies below, which will automatically appear on individual AR goggles, or the addition of aim assist for rifles (though the US is testing that out now), then that would qualify as a generational leap.

The new US army NODS are almost veering to AR territory by highlighting the outlines of troops and ground features automatically, but don't relay additional information and inputs from other sensors AFAIK to qualify as augmented reality.

I think you are underestimating the quantum of the tech being brought in- the integrated sights to be issued as standard issue have built in ballistic computers for all infantry

the enhanced vision helmets will unlock plenty of completely new capabilities never seen on the battlefield before

drones equally have changed the entire way warfare is conducted and naturally the Western soldiers have access to the most capable even at a man portable level

then there’s all the ancillary stuff that’s come out of GWOT- by most assessments the area of battlefield medicine has transformed in the last 20 years, not just equipment but techniques pioneered in GWOT has been transformative

and you still seem to be discounting the massive improvement in capabilities brought out by having superior C4I and situational awareness thanks to ATAKs, SDRs etc.

To claim the rag tag militiaman with his brand new Ops core helmet and off brand MARPAT is in the same arena as a decked out NATO soldier is beyond hilarious

 

[vampyrbladez]

I think you are underestimating the quantum of the tech being brought in- the integrated sights to be issued as standard issue have built in ballistic computers for all infantry

the enhanced vision helmets will unlock plenty of completely new capabilities never seen on the battlefield before

drones equally have changed the entire way warfare is conducted and naturally the Western soldiers have access to the most capable even at a man portable level

then there’s all the ancillary stuff that’s come out of GWOT- by most assessments the area of battlefield medicine has transformed in the last 20 years, not just equipment but techniques pioneered in GWOT has been transformative

and you still seem to be discounting the massive improvement in capabilities brought out by having superior C4I and situational awareness thanks to ATAKs, SDRs etc.

To claim the rag tag militiaman with his brand new Ops core helmet and off brand MARPAT is in the same arena as a decked out NATO soldier is beyond hilarious

India ironically has all this new tech ready for use.

EK-Gen2 Tonbo Imaging

EK-Gen2 is a smart thermal weapon sight (STWS) designed as a TI weapon sight with an integrated fire control system. It features integrated laser range finder, meteorological sensors and an integrated ballistic computer for real time computation of the bullet drop.

AjnaBolt - AjnaLens

AjnaBolt is a revolutionary advancement for modern warfare which combines Mixed Reality (MR) with Artificial Intelligence (AI). These military-grade glasses with 60o FOV, integrated protection system enabling day/night vision, and indoor/outdoor adaptability increases mission capability whilst ensuring maximum survivability. Its modular design works efficiently in adverse weather conditions, improves the soldier’s battlefield awareness, and aids in accomplishing missions with minimum gadgets.

TACTICAL VEST PLATE CARRIER – S.T. R.I.G. - Armasen

Lightweight Plate Carrier Tactical Vest Designed to Accommodate Standard Issue Square Cut/Shooters Cut/Swimmers Cut Plates.

The brass however will only issue the following to Agniveer troops out of budgetary constraints :

'F-INSAS'

 

[Kumaoni]

I think you are underestimating the quantum of the tech being brought in- the integrated sights to be issued as standard issue have built in ballistic computers for all infantry

the enhanced vision helmets will unlock plenty of completely new capabilities never seen on the battlefield before

drones equally have changed the entire way warfare is conducted and naturally the Western soldiers have access to the most capable even at a man portable level

then there’s all the ancillary stuff that’s come out of GWOT- by most assessments the area of battlefield medicine has transformed in the last 20 years, not just equipment but techniques pioneered in GWOT has been transformative

and you still seem to be discounting the massive improvement in capabilities brought out by having superior C4I and situational awareness thanks to ATAKs, SDRs etc.

To claim the rag tag militiaman with his brand new Ops core helmet and off brand MARPAT is in the same arena as a decked out NATO soldier is beyond hilarious

It’s sad how fighting an insurgency which compared to afghanistan and winning has led to zero tactical innovation in the indian military.

You’d think based on the infantry heavy nature of IAs operations and even the admission of generals on how basic thermal devices changed the game for them, that they would be up to date on NVG in 2023.

 

[abingdonboy]

It’s sad how fighting an insurgency which compared to afghanistan and winning has led to zero tactical innovation in the indian military.

You’d think based on the infantry heavy nature of IAs operations and even the admission of generals on how basic thermal devices changed the game for them, that they would be up to date on NVG in 2023.

When in doubt- throw bodies at the problem.

life is cheap in india and some seem more interested in hailing ‘martyrs’ than preventing them

 

[Kumaoni]

When in doubt- throw bodies at the problem.

life is cheap in india and some seem more interested in hailing ‘martyrs’ than preventing them

You know what i used to not believe this but, when the situation does get tense, it really is just charge at the enemy when you are out of options

 

[rkhanna]

I'm saying there has been no major capability jump apart from incremental improvements.

The Generational Jump in kit that you are mentioning has come in the Spheres of Optics (Night Fighting), Superior Comms and ISR - Fusing Data of all three in a combined Arms effort gives them a capability we cant even dream of yet. - The Jump from here is offcourse AI enabled realtime decision making and analysis

Otherwise the only other Generational Jump will be in stuff like Exoskeletons and Active Camo from Infantry.

 

[Inderjeet Singh]

Here you can see modern PC high cut helmet coms dual nods sights all this equipment enough for making a modern infantry soldier

 

[Kumaoni]

I know about the various iterations on each piece of kit. I'm saying there has been no major capability jump apart from incremental improvements. An American soldier in 2003 was significantly better equipped than one in 1983, due to the issuing of individual NVG's, Kevlar body Armour, and optics. Night fighting ability and much better survivability was a generational jump in capability.

Take another 20 year leap to 2023 vs 2003, and the changes are nothing groundbreaking to the capabilities a modern soldier had in 2003. And the context I'm pointing to is that modern infantrymen are losing the tech edge that they previously enjoyed over non state actors and poorer militaries in terms of infantry gear.

Regarding IA, there's zero copium from my end. They've refused to standardize regular infantry even to 2003 iraq invasion levels, leave aside 2023 gear.

You should see RR formations in 2003 and compare them to RR formations now and, barring 1-2 pics, there’s ZERO difference literally.

 

[vampyrbladez]

In 2016, the 10 man section had:-

• 2 LMG (Bren LMG/ INSAS LMG)
• 1 Rocket Launcher (RCL) (Carl Gustav)
• Bayonet strength a.k.a Assault Group is 6 man strong. (INSAS)
• MG a.k.a. Support Group is 4 man strong now (earlier was 3).

'Each Soldier Carries About 40 kg In Battle': Why The Army Cannot Downsize
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/eac...le-why-the-army-cannot-downsize-1284838/amp/1

In 2023/24 how would our infantry section look like with the addition of Sig 716i, Negev NG-7 and AK 203?

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Is this the cold weather clothing system that we bought from the US during Galwan?