Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[nongaddarliberal]

See this is the power of import lobby in armed forces
Let us import or we won't buy let men die and u take responsibility as military can't be questioned

Even considering some import lobby, they could have committed to importing 800k Sig 716 in batches. We are getting it at 900 dollars a piece, already a significant discount to its market price. Further economies of scale plus some negotiations would have brought it down to 700 a piece, which is a steal for a modern 7.62 AR platform. But no.

 

[Tactical Doge]

To be fair, the Iraqis hadn't exactly practiced or applied the lessons they learned in India due to the structure and environment they had set up back in that time. It was very much a soviet model which IA is not. I don't think you can honestly compare the IA to the Iraqi Army or the IAF to the Iraqi Air Force. Sure USA had a tech lead over India but I would daresay that IA and IAF would have fared far much better than the Iraqi Army and Iraqi Air Force and give US a very bloody nose and mouth and some heavy bruises.

Indian pilots used to be posted in iraq years training their air force
Air commodore Suren Tyagi is one of them, he later headed TACDE as well
IAF held Iraqis in high regard.............until they didn't

 

[Super falcon]

U

Well it seems that L&T might be the front runner . Their front chassis was revealed publicly this year . We dk if turret modifications can be done to the original base turret . Also the DRDO design was released a year back

URAN 9 like light ULV has any chance for India

 

[Super falcon]

Specially in Ladakh these Uran work best due to light weight and unmanned no crew weight included

 

[The Shrike]

Sadly the problem is much more than simply procurement; procurement is a very capital intensive process. Even a simple combat knife can cost 10k.

But do you known what's cheap? Training; you just need few hundred rounds.

Just see how our guy's shouldering a full power battle rifle and compare how that French soldier is shouldering a whimpy assault rifle.
View attachment 196751
What's the problem? This same soldier is later going to complaint about high recoil on SIG. And ya; the classic folded sight shooting technique, how can I miss that.

EDIT : Just noticed the muzzle of SIG 716i is closed by using a cloth

This image is killing me.

Why is the muzzle closed by that tampon thingee, what purpose does it serve?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Why is the muzzle closed by that tampon thingee, what purpose does it serve?

Mahine ke un dino ke liye...

 

[Tshering22]

See this is the power of import lobby in armed forces
Let us import or we won't buy let men die and u take responsibility as military can't be questioned

There are ways to enforce the military to use local goods. But the government won't take a harder stance against the generals. I feel that whatever Manohar Parrikar ji did back then against the IAF to force Tejas down is needed to be replicated across the Army in the armored vehicle department.

Even if it means dishonorably discharging a few generals.

 

[Marcus Aurelius]

Read Wellington experience book, it's by a American officer.
He mentions, cadets and instructors literally thought that they can win against USA.
That indian army equipment wise was equal to USA.
This revelation ends all debates and doubts, haha
Indian militray was equivalent of USA in 80 and 90 and rivalled them equipment.
The author goes on to say that indians were dumbfounded by iraqis losses in gulf wars.
Ask why, huge number of iraqi officers were trained in india, their pilots were trained by TACDE.
Indians were literally in shock when the realistion of our inferiority hit them hard very hard below the belt.

Could you quote the name of the book and the author?

 

[ZuluAlphaPapa]

Could you quote the name of the book and the author?

The Wellington Experience: A Study of the Attitudes and Values Within the Indian Army - Colonel David O. Smith

 

[Marcus Aurelius]

Loved the discussion taking place in this thread. Yes, its true that between 2006-2016 the Pakistan Army infantry has equipped itself with modular BPJs and Kevlar Helmets etc. Initially I felt that maybe it is because the Pak Army is an infantry centric army however, after viewing some Pakistani programmes where officers at the LoC had the humility of accepting that India was numerically superior and they could not match the Indian Army in terms of manpower, I realised that perhaps the Pak Army was learning from its Western counterparts in terms of equipping its infantry. I guess you need to be curious to learn something and you ll only be curious if you respect knowledge and want to gather it. Perhaps, intellectual curiosity about emerging technologies and tactics is something which cannot be replaced with money.

 

[Marcus Aurelius]

Thanks a lot !!!

 

[Marcus Aurelius]

The Wellington Experience: A Study of the Attitudes and Values Within the Indian Army - Colonel David O. Smith

There are ways to enforce the military to use local goods. But the government won't take a harder stance against the generals. I feel that whatever Manohar Parrikar ji did back then against the IAF to force Tejas down is needed to be replicated across the Army in the armored vehicle department.

Even if it means dishonorably discharging a few generals.

I guess we need a Goldwater-Nichols moment in the Indian armed forces today.

 

[ezsasa]

The Wellington Experience: A Study of the Attitudes and Values Within the Indian Army - Colonel David O. Smith

stimson has been a pro-pak think tank in DC. majority of their research fellows used to be from pakistan, haven't checked recently may be they still do.

For me Stimson centre itself is a big red flag, they have been promotors of paki narrative on capitol hill for years now. if i am to base my assessment considering this info, i would say if i am CCP and i want to prevent U.S and India forces from joining hands in asia, stimson centre would be one of my go to tools. This is similar to recent chapter written by Ashley tellis for US Army war college where he inserted Hindu nationalism commentary into what was supposed to be a purely military assessment on Indian military strengths.

These pieces are designed to leave a bad taste in the mind of a U.S reader. But when push comes to shove, U.S military leadership will throw all these morality & ideology arguments into dustbin, since they have a history of collaborating with anyone who suits the purpose of the day.

and the guy who wrote the paper.

Dude, I respect your desire to examine problems within Indian Army and face some hard questions so that we can overcome them. But in this case, the Colonel David Smith whose comments you are depending on is a Pakistani shill.
This guy gave a talk in Stimson Center about this same book. Have a look:-

In case you are not convinced, he gave another talk in Wilson Center about the Pakistan Army "The Quetta Experience":-

Watch him speak about both Indian Army and Pakistan Army. Read between the lines. You'll recognize the actual source of his words.

For such a compromised source, we can't really depend on his analysis because we can't know where in his words, the kernel of truth ends and where the subversion begins.



You took the words right out of my mouth. But what I find strange about this interview is the fact that the interviewer asked him only about the commonalities between Indian Army and Pakistan Army, not the differences, which should have followed. This was an email interview, so the questions were sent preformed.

 

[Blademaster]

The Wellington Experience: A Study of the Attitudes and Values Within the Indian Army - Colonel David O. Smith

Please point to the exact page that talked about this. I don't have time to go through this entire book because after reading the first 5 pages, it is apparent to me that it is full of slanted BS analysis.

 

[JConline]

stimson has been a pro-pak think tank in DC. majority of their research fellows used to be from pakistan, haven't checked recently may be they still do.



and the guy who wrote the paper.

Even if Stimson is a pro-Pak thinker, it doesn't change the fact that India is miles behind the USA in all aspects. And the problem is not that India can't afford it, the problem is that the decision-makers in the army have no idea about technological advances in the western world and even if they do, they are too ignorant to recognize the need for these advancements.

 

[ezsasa]

Even if Stimson is a pro-Pak thinker, it doesn't change the fact that India is miles behind the USA in all aspects. And the problem is not that India can't afford it, the problem is that the decision-makers in the army have no idea about technological advances in the western world and even if they do, they are too ignorant to recognize the need for these advancements.

sure, no disagreement here, i wouldn't use the word ignorant. large organisations take time to overcome inertia, and then comes the resources and logistics of things.

fact is things are a lot better than a decade ago.

 

[Spadex]

When taking into account the current and previous orders for BPJ's, helmets and NVGs, it will cover maximum 150k troops. NVG's are not even that many. There is not even a slight indication that they are trying to standardize modern equipment for 800k infantry, which would be proportionate to the IA's size.

Sig 716, which would have been an excellent service rifle has been stopped after 140k orders. The explanation being that SIG's are for "frontline" troops while the rest get AK 203 (Without the adjustable buttstock, and picatinny removed from the front handguard, so a downgrade of even the standard AK 203).

Once you take these facts together, a very troubling conclusion is apparent:

The IA considers only around 150k of its soldiers as "frontline" fighting infantry, while they think rest of the infantry is supposed to be some sort of auxiliary force. This begs the question why we need 1.2 million men in the first place, if only 150k will be modern infantry (that too semi modern by global standards). You can have a 500k army if that's the case, with 350k in armoured forces, Arty, logistics, communication etc while 150k are infantry.

In reality, this 150k "frontline" troops delusion will burst very quickly in case of a real war with either neighbour.

Ak 203i is >>>> sig as far as indian army is concerned. Without scope (fixed or LPVO) sig 716 (which IA is not going to buy in our lifetime) they are just heavy recoil Rifle with a degraded mag capacity of 20 round while losing the ability of suppress fire.

Meanwhile I was researching about about the newly issued SMPP BRJ. And I have nothing good to say about that.

Troops absolutely hate it

 

[AlphaRaiderZ]

Ahem

Second last clip is crucial

 

[AlphaRaiderZ]

Ak 203i is >>>> sig as far as indian army is concerned. Without scope (fixed or LPVO) sig 716 (which IA is not going to buy in our lifetime) they are just heavy recoil Rifle with a degraded mag capacity of 20 round while losing the ability of suppress fire.

Meanwhile I was researching about about the newly issued SMPP BRJ. And I have nothing good to say about that.

Troops absolutely hate it

Notwithstanding the incessant no. Of fuck ups of IA , our primary arms option for a 'POOR' country like ours would've been Galil series .
Ace - N series chambered in 5.56 ,7.62 Russian + NATO . Simplifying the logistics tension . The PLR would've developed into a Full blown company on par with IWI US . Economic Relations with Israelis would've improved atleast 3 times .
Equipped with Mepro MOR and Mepro X6 We should've been a combat capable nation


If Ak-203 and Sig is our primary then our immediate option would've been fully equipping the whole force with Mepro MOR , BEL trinetra (similar dimensions) for CQB and going for Tonbo Apollo or S4I systems Ap37 or Mepro X series for Sig .
Carbines can be modded with each

 

[samsaptaka]

View attachment 196750
Doob Maro jo procurements krte hai Infantry Jawan ka bhi dhyan rakh lo

IA top brass should be fired