Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[ManhattanProject]

People miss targets at 15 yards even with training- happens with police officers all the time. That does not minimize the importance of training.

Are we seriously arguing that equipping a good rifle with decent scope is unnecessary? C’mon bud

when did i say dont give them scopes?
but you just brushing off marksmanship as an afterthought irritated me.

 

[Wisemarko]

Secondly doing target practice is onething. Getting an average soldier to undertake accurate fire out to 800m under contact after having spent 3-4hrs patroling with combat load in desert/jungle/ravine etc terrain is a whole different thing.

What a silly statement! Why would you carry a heavy rifle with less ammo and big recoil for a mission that does not require engagements designed for it.

Precisely the reason that Indian forces switched to captured AK-47s of Kashmiri terrorists in 1990s from their FN-FAL.

You are mixing desert warfare with jungle warfare here. Both are very different. Our experience in Iraq and especially Afghanistan showed need for long range engagements with .308 over 5.56 rounds.

Urban warfare in Iraq on the other hand showed the importance of 5.56 and reliability issues of M-4- accelerating switch to HK-416 in SOCOM

 

[Wisemarko]

when did i say dont give them scopes?
but you just brushing off marksmanship as an afterthought irritated me.

Not intended.

 

[Fire and groove]

There is no Goal. The reality of combat is that soldiers are trained to what they are most likely to face. and Most likely they will always engage the enemy from 50m to 200m. Beyond that like i stated IA SOP would be the bring in additional firepower to either manouver closer to break contact. Lobbing ammo from 800m is a waste of ammo unless you are Talibanny

Design of a product and its ultimate end use are not always correlated. While a traditional def of a battle rifle is a full powered carterage today that line item in Orbat is routinely filled by M4s, AKs, HK636s, FAMAS, INSAS.



Agreed. Why the IA went for 762NATO is anobodies guess but the Army also wants 762/39 and 556/45 so your guess is as good as mine. The Americans seem to be working towards the 6.8mm hybrid solution.

So Far various subunits in IA has put the SIG through its paces and they seem very happy with it.




I received my Scout Shooting Merit Badge when i was 18. Along with the Scout Masters we had a USMC Small Arms Instructor and it was conducted at Yokota AFB, Japan. My merit badge was earned on a Winchester .22LR both with a 4x Scope and iron sites. I have also hunted a bit in Canada apart from spending time at ranges with friends who had been shooting since they were 6. So while i am not an expert at anything i understand a wee bit.

You cannot train anybody in 3 hours to shoot accurately and consitantly on any firearm (even if they are naturals). Training on Scopes is incredibly hard specially when you start going out to 700-1000m distances.

Secondly doing target practice is onething. Getting an average soldier to undertake accurate fire out to 800m under contact after having spent 3-4hrs patroling with combat load in desert/jungle/ravine etc terrain is a whole different thing. It requires hrs and hrs and 1000s of rounds of ammo to train that soldier where he should be learning to shoot and manourver with his squad.

Add to that the weak ballistics of 7.62x51mm cartridges.

 

[FalconSlayers]

 

[ManhattanProject]

Add to that the weak ballistics of 7.62x51mm cartridges.

should have went with something in the 6.5mm range, the newer cartridges have lower recoil and better ballistic coefficient.

 

[Fire and groove]

should have went with something in the 6.5mm range, the newer cartridges have lower recoil and better ballistic coefficient.

Not really. The cross sectional density and ballistic coefficient of the 6.5mm cartridges are pretty good and comparable overall to the 5.56x45mm variants, but they're not better by any sense. In reality they're being hyped up as rounds that can supersede the 5.56 while they simply don't bring anything superior to the table. They're not worse, but they're also not better. Using it would just be going full circle from the 5.56 to cartridges that are just as good but less widely used and requiring an entirely new supply chain.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Not really. The cross sectional density and ballistic coefficient of the 6.5mm cartridges are pretty good and comparable overall to the 5.56x45mm variants, but they're not better by any sense. In reality they're being hyped up as rounds that can supersede the 5.56 while they simply don't bring anything superior to the table. They're not worse, but they're also not better. Using it would just be going full circle from the 5.56 to cartridges that are just as good but less widely used and requiring an entirely new supply chain.

i disagree entirely, its like saying the 308 is better than the 338.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Not really. The cross sectional density and ballistic coefficient of the 6.5mm cartridges are pretty good and comparable overall to the 5.56x45mm variants, but they're not better by any sense. In reality they're being hyped up as rounds that can supersede the 5.56 while they simply don't bring anything superior to the table. They're not worse, but they're also not better. Using it would just be going full circle from the 5.56 to cartridges that are just as good but less widely used and requiring an entirely new supply chain.

what i am talking about is for eg.. 6.5 creedmore vs 308 Winchester.

 

[Killbot]

what i am talking about is for eg.. 6.5 creedmore vs 308 Winchester.

I think what @Fire and groove meant here is, 6.5mm is better performance wise, but how much better? Does it justify the costs of large scale production and discarding of the stocks of the ammo we have now. I don't think so. We (IA) certainly cannot afford a new caliber, not to mention their inventory is already a clusterfuck.

 

[Killbot]

Add to that the weak ballistics of 7.62x51mm cartridges.

Switching from 7.62 NATO to .308 Win solves your problems, mostly. And tweak the bullet loads and grainage a little bit. Should do for all practical purposes, but the ballistic coefficient will not change. And I think .308 BC is good enough.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Dragunov
SIG 716
MP9
Scorpio TGT

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Dragunov
SIG 716
MP9
Scorpio TGT
View attachment 83766

A few SIGs have some sights on them

 

[Tactical Doge]

A few SIGs have some sights on them

BEL Holotech

 

[Tactical Doge]

BEL Holotech

And in the left side of the picture
Maybe an EOTECH, I'm not sure

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Can dragunovs be reconfigured to fire 7.62*51mm round?

If yes, it would simplify logistics at squad level which already is firing sig 716, bren mmg, and negev lmg.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Can dragunovs be reconfigured to fire 7.62*51mm round?

Chinese Norinco NDM-86
Basically a copy, but variants rechambered in 762NATO

 

[Tactical Doge]

Chinese Norinco NDM-86
Basically a copy, but variants rechambered in 762NATO

View attachment 83788

Although I'm not sure if modifying our existing inventory is plausible or even practical for that matter, we have SIGs coming in

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The problem with 7.62*54 mm round is that ofb does not manufacture it. It has to be imported from Russia.
That is why despite being the only general issue sniper we had for so long, only 50% of barrel life (typically around 7000 rounds) is expended for a weapon we had for decades.
Thus army is thinking of upgrading them with fab defence/ sss defence accessories.

 

[Tactical Doge]

The problem with 7.62*54 mm round is that ofb does not manufacture it. It has to be imported from Russia.
That is why despite being the only general issue sniper we had for so long, only 50% of barrel life (typically around 7000 rounds) is expended for a weapon we had for decades.
Thus army is thinking of upgrading them with fab defence/ sss defence accessories.

Mods are just stopgaps
I'm gonna be optimistic here and say IA gonna replace those wholesale