MMRCA news and discussions.

Whats your Choice for the MMRCA Contest?

  • Gripen

    Votes: 5 4.9%
  • F16 IN

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • F18 SH

    Votes: 8 7.8%
  • Mig 35

    Votes: 24 23.3%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 45 43.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 20 19.4%

  • Total voters
    103

Daredevil

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The French Squall - Rafale

LiveFist 7/2/09 9:02 PM Shiv Aroor

The Rafale is an intriguing aircraft. Everyone remembers the dramatic way in which Dassault announced in 2006 that it was withdrawing the Mirage-2000-V from the MMRCA competition and instead fielding the the Rafale. It was a surprise move, considering the fact that the IAF had initially simply wanted to buy a whole lot more Mirages as its MMRCA, and was deeply convinced about the capabilities of the Dash-5. Fate (and Dassault) had other plans, it seemed. And with the government, in its wisdom, ordering the IAF to "open up" its qualitative requirements to engender a real competition, Boeing leapt into the fray with the Super Hornet. Almost on cue, the Mirage was withdrawn and the Rafale pitched. There are those who believe this was a seriously bad move, though Dassault unofficially sent across the message that there was no way in hell that it was going to keep its production line warm for the notorious time it was going to take for the Indian government to make its mind up, and also that there was no assurance that the Mirage would be selected finally. And therefore, the Rafale.

STRENGHTS

The Rafale smacks of the intangible "newness" of being a truly contemporary airplane built for today's missions. Conversely, it suffers none of the reputational hazards of being an old souped up platform with tinkering under the bonnet. Pitched as an "omnirole" fighter, the IAF has incrementally been convinced of what this term really means. Pitched as a logical next-step to the Mirage -- which the IAF loves with a passion -- the people at Dassault have managed to pitch well the idea that operating the Rafale will be a progression of the same ownership/operation experience. The pitch that IAF pilots will take to the Rafale more easily than any of the other fighters is something that has managed to be persuasive to an extent. While the Thales RBE2 AESA radar is still its final developmental phase, the IAF has been provided with regular and detailed updates on the radar's capabilities and performance parameters, and one officer, who has been part of the teams that receive these updates on a regular basis, says the IAF had no reason to doubt the laid down capabilities, and was in fact deeply impressed with what the French had managed to achieve in what is a science simply dominated by two American firms. Not just that, Dassault says the Rafale is the only aircraft in its class to be equipped with active arrays for both its radar and electronic warfare suite (EWS). IAF officers have in fact regularly been invited to witness RBE2 prototypes being tested on the Hack -- a Mirage-2000 test bed for the radar since 2003. In April 2008, the Rafale opened its operational account by being deployed to Afghanistan and being flown on 220 active combat missions, involving 730 flight hours. This may be peanuts compared to the operational logs of the Rafale's competition in the MMRCA, but the IAF recognises that this is a new aircraft in a transitory phase of tranche-level modernisation. At Red Flag 2008, IAF pilots got up close with the Rafale. A report on the Rafale was in fact informally submitted to Vayu Bhawan by the team when it returned. TheIAF has been given detailed presentations on the Rafale's multi-sensor data fusion system -- the RBE2 radar, Link 16 data bus, Front Sector Optronic (FSO) and SPECTRA self-defense suite and has been impressed by the ensemble. The Rafale is also considered by the IAF to be possibly the only plane in the sweepstakes with a focused use of composites for stealth and reduced RCS. The Rafale will also come with new, high-capability variants of MBDA missiles that the IAF has operated for decades, and places a lot of value on. Former Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash, as FOC-in-C Western Naval Command, flew the Rafale during an official visit to Paris. A few other senior officers of the IAF have also had a chance to spin up in the otherwise reclusive Rafale. The sense that Dassault isn't displaying its wares like the other five contenders are, is something that has somehow been looked at as "proper" by some in the Defence Ministry. This is, after all, a serious defence procurement, some say -- "there's no need for so much song and dance at Aero India every year". The Rafale is the only aircraft in the sweepstakes that comes with an explicitly stated nuclear delivery capability. None of the others mentioned it. And the reason I mention this is that some very senior officers in the air force, are wondering why. The Rafale is also among the least familiar of the six jets, at least in the Indian media, simply because Dassault has stayed well away from courting publicity -- this is also looked upon by the IAF/MoD as being representative of a deeper, more valuable quality during a procurement process: discretion. Finally, defence deals with France have always been expensive, but always been excellent professional and operational experiences for the Indian forces. From the Mirages to Alouettes to the Mysteres. No spares problems. No nonsense. The French could also leverage significant political power to push India as the prestigious launch customer of the Rafale, though not quite like the Jaguar's initial years were. A maximum 11 Gs in critical manoeuvers doesn't hurt either.

WEAKNESSES

The albatross around the Rafale remains its relatively unproven stature, and of course, the fact that it hasn't ever been exported. As one of the most expensive (flyaway cost) aircraft in the sweepstakes, it also comes with possibly the largest price-tag in terms of total contract cost, though Dassault has made strenuous efforts to convey to the IAF that its use of Dassault aircraft over time, particularly the Mirage, will significantly erode the total commitment necessary in terms of new infrastructure. Obviously, the IAF isn't buying this -- they're treating the Rafale as any new aircraft type. There are almost no articulated weaknesses in specifications, though the IAF is anxious about an aircraft that has been fielded for a lot of competitions unsuccessfully. Finally, the government has recently awarded France with the huge Scorpene deal. Awarding the MMRCA to France would be politically too much for too little. The leadership of Nicolas Sarkozy doesn't half do what Jacques Chirac's did in its time.
 

Vladimir79

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The R-37 at 4.2m is only 0.6m longer than the R-77 at 3.6m and the R-77M is significantly bigger than the older R-77 and a large diameter. But, the R-37 is no bigger than the KH-31, which is used by the Mig-29 itself. So, I don't see why the R-37 cannot be used on a bigger Mig-35. A significantly larger KH-59 SLAM can also be used on the Mig-35, which weighs over 900kg with a length around 6m.

The boosted version of K-100 is around 7.5m long and weighs over 700kg while the R-37 weighs around 600kg. So, that would suggest the R-37 is more suited for the "Super Fulcrum" than the K-100.
I was refering to the radar aperture. It takes a big fighter with a big radar to use that missile, like a MiG-31. The MiG-35 will have an advanced AESA but its range for such missiles will not be close to their maximum range since the power output will be much smaller.

Nevertheless, India is hoping to export the K-100 to Russia once development is complete. The R-37 is more mature till date. I cannot say how the R-37 will affect stability if employed on the Super Fulcrum. But, Mig has not failed till date.
I don't see why we would need it. MiG-31s are undergoing major upgrades in avionics as well as new missiles. Those are our AWACs killers.

True. Nothing can be said about any of the AESA It ain't over till the Fat Lady sings.
If giving away production secrets keeps us in the dominate share of the Indian market then why not. What we are really concerned with is giving away our trade secrets and then having them stab us in the back by trying to compete in exports with our own technology. There are repurcussions for doing so if China tries exporting J-11.
 

luckyy

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Hi guys,
I know that the Gripen and Rafael offers include the source code,i wanted to know if the SH and Mig-35 include the the same.The US has said some restrictions will be there in the ToT do these include the radars?
by latest , F-16 and F-18 do not include source code ,all other contenders do..

ToT on radar is only limited to 30% as per RoP guidence , means IAF only looking for radar tecnology to the extent of maintanence porpose only...
 

Soham

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If giving away production secrets keeps us in the dominate share of the Indian market then why not. What we are really concerned with is giving away our trade secrets and then having them stab us in the back by trying to compete in exports with our own technology. There are repurcussions for doing so if China tries exporting J-11.
Could you shed some light on the possible repurcussions ?
How would you stop China from jumping into the tenders ?
 

luckyy

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@Vladimir79 :

MIG-35 is a good air supirioty fighter and it stands on top in this role among all other contenders .

but MMRCA is not only to get a pure air supirioty fighter , IAF is looking for a multirole fighter....we has seen during kargil war that IAF uses mig-29 only to give escort to mirage and jagure during ground attack missions ....IAF didn't use it for attack missions..

MIG-35 in the MMRCA compitition will be tested more on it's ground attack capabilities ...
 

Vladimir79

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@Vladimir79 :

MIG-35 is a good air supirioty fighter and it stands on top in this role among all other contenders .

but MMRCA is not only to get a pure air supirioty fighter , IAF is looking for a multirole fighter....we has seen during kargil war that IAF uses mig-29 only to give escort to mirage and jagure during ground attack missions ....IAF didn't use it for attack missions..

MIG-35 in the MMRCA compitition will be tested more on it's ground attack capabilities ...

Which is why I say it is really out of the running. MiG-35 is no bomb truck.
 
J

John

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indeed the mig-35 isn't the right contender, they should have bid with Su-35BMki which could have been a better option, it has super cruise, awacs killing ability and can carry brahmos. Mig-35 is also well challenged by EF in air superiority, needless to say EF is more like a rocket ship and getting a simple lock on it is not easy. EF-T-3 will have TVC and AESA (possibly the Northrop SABR if cleared for export) which will make it untouchable in those A2A roles. You also forget that due to its ability to carry upto 12 A2A missiles the SH should not be underestimated and its getting a new higher thrust engine which will puts its thrust to weight ratio to well over 1.1 , armed with 10 Aim-120D, it too can challenge the others in A2A and all possible roles. The US has control on TOT for Gripen NG, the teens and the EF as well. The fact however remains that the F-18 and F-16 are also very customizable for example, the Aussies will have a Swedish RWR on their SH, we can have Israeli radars on the Falcon and Israel has no problem giving full tot on radars etc. Rafale would be great if it received either the APG-79, SABR, RACR or EL-2052 AESA because its very own kinda falls short of the others. If indeed the French open it up and we can add some nice things to it well, Rafale is a good option but off course we have to integrate a lot of new weapons and avionics on it which could make it very expensive. In terms of source codes though the US is not really giving it all, we are allowed to add to the library of threats already in the data base which allows of customization. Besides playing and reprogramming source codes will take ages and not to mention a whole load of threats already exist in the Teens library, we can add to them and hence the codes are re-configurable which is also gr8, saves us a lot of time. Besides the aircraft will have ODL and home made IFF which is also gr8. Both Lockheed and Boeing are willing to offer full -tot but its the US govt. that needs to clear the amount.

what i dont understand is why the heck did MOD set the TOT level to max. of 60% instead of 100% since the beginning and only contenders who can provide that can bid, this 60% business makes the whole thing so messy and delays the process.
 

p2prada

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I was refering to the radar aperture. It takes a big fighter with a big radar to use that missile, like a MiG-31. The MiG-35 will have an advanced AESA but its range for such missiles will not be close to their maximum range since the power output will be much smaller.
AESA's are known to have extremely long ranges with lesser power. Zaslon has TWTs to power it and that indeed poses problems. But, AESA's are equipped with solid state emitters. The detection range of the American radars are themselves over 500km, so a new radar upgrade over the next may infuse the Super Fulcrum with new capabilities.

Eg: The Viper delivers lesser power than the Mig-35(2 engines). But, the detection and tracking range of the AESA is far superior.

Not to mention IAF has AWACS for long range shots.

Also, the AFNET(Airforce Network) will enable the Mig-35 to tap into the Ground radars for target coordinates even if the Mig-35 is flying away from the border.

If giving away production secrets keeps us in the dominate share of the Indian market then why not. What we are really concerned with is giving away our trade secrets and then having them stab us in the back by trying to compete in exports with our own technology. There are repurcussions for doing so if China tries exporting J-11.
India is known in not doing that. We use your technology in building our own and even that was in the past. Now we like Israeli stuff as our avionics. LCA does not have anything Russian in it anyways, probably except for the GLONASS receivers in the future.
 

Vladimir79

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AESA's are known to have extremely long ranges with lesser power. Zaslon has TWTs to power it and that indeed poses problems. But, AESA's are equipped with solid state emitters. The detection range of the American radars are themselves over 500km, so a new radar upgrade over the next may infuse the Super Fulcrum with new capabilities.
Well our AESA isn't Amerikan. The problem of overheating at high outputs still exists so range is reduced. While that is fine for front line fighter that is not great for an AWACs killer. Upgrades to the radar may increase but it will be six or seven years before we produce at the current US level.

Eg: The Viper delivers lesser power than the Mig-35(2 engines). But, the detection and tracking range of the AESA is far superior.
Only if you have the ability to channel that power through it. We do not.

Not to mention IAF has AWACS for long range shots.

Also, the AFNET(Airforce Network) will enable the Mig-35 to tap into the Ground radars for target coordinates even if the Mig-35 is flying away from the border.
Then let the Flankers carry it. MiG-35 is not a long range fighter.
 
J

John

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LCA probably have mix of GLONASS/IRNSS/GPS recievers coz starting end of this year the first Indian home made GPS sattelite will be launched and by 2012 we'll have around 7 of them and will give us the ability to have GPS accuracy of close to 1-2 meters thoughout India and 2000 km all around it.
 

Vladimir79

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LCA probably have mix of GLONASS/IRNSS/GPS recievers coz starting end of this year the first Indian home made GPS sattelite will be launched and by 2012 we'll have around 7 of them and will give us the ability to have GPS accuracy of close to 1-2 meters thoughout India and 2000 km all around it.
IRNSS accuracy is stated as 20 metres. It is a military grade but you need a good sized bomb to make sure you get a kill.
 

p2prada

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Well our AESA isn't Amerikan. The problem of overheating at high outputs still exists so range is reduced. While that is fine for front line fighter that is not great for an AWACs killer. Upgrades to the radar may increase but it will be six or seven years before we produce at the current US level.
If we do choose the Mig-35, do you believe Russia will agree to jointly develop a new AESA radar for MLUs, similar to IRBIS on the MKI.

Then let the Flankers carry it. MiG-35 is not a long range fighter.
Logistically, only a handful of Flankers carrying K-100 is enough for our needs. It's just that a Mig-35 will have a faster turn around time for quick reaction.
 

Vladimir79

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If we do choose the Mig-35, do you believe Russia will agree to jointly develop a new AESA radar for MLUs, similar to IRBIS on the MKI.
Of course... we are jointly developing one for PAK FA as we speak.

Logistically, only a handful of Flankers carrying K-100 is enough for our needs. It's just that a Mig-35 will have a faster turn around time for quick reaction.
How many AWACs are you thinking Pakistan will field... China? Not many is my guess.
 

Payeng

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Every reliable source I read said, and it was many, less than 20 metres. The point being, it is a far cry from 2 metres.
I am not saying its better, just putting forward the fact or whatever I know.

sorry for I didn't provided a link as I don't remember it now,
try this Presentaion by ISRO itself.

View attachment 695
 

slug55

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Outclasses ? The Su30MKI will outhandle anything short of an F-22A and even that awaits to be seen.
As much as I love the Su-30MKI (its gorgeous) I don't think that it could compete with the EF in the A2A role or the Super Hornet in the A2G role. Its RCS is just WAY too big.

Does anyone know if the El-2052 could be put on the EF? Is the Radar too big for it? Since the EF Aesa development is in limbo, the 2052 would be a better choice than the SABR or RACR. India does love Israeli tech and they are familiar with it and Israel wouldn't downgrade the radar I don't think!
 

1.44

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The 2052 coupled with the EF's maneuverability would make for a deadly machine.However i'm not sure if it would fit.If the EF is chosen the choice should be between the 2052 or the AMSAR.
Anyone know if it would be offered possibility as mid-life upgrade?
 

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