MMRCA news and discussions.

Whats your Choice for the MMRCA Contest?

  • Gripen

    Votes: 5 4.9%
  • F16 IN

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • F18 SH

    Votes: 8 7.8%
  • Mig 35

    Votes: 24 23.3%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 45 43.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 20 19.4%

  • Total voters
    103

jackprince

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if brasil goes for - f/a 18 sh , i think that will put - super hornet on back seat for our mmrca, or so it should.
because that means we will get more delayed delivery of our fighters. if we are ready to be so late why not go for - f-35 ????.
India may or may not go for F-18E/F. This fact that Brazil's procurement may delay the deliveries will obviously be factored in. But then all the contenders in F-X2 program are in MMRCA too. So it will be interesting to see who gets what. btw, whoever wins one bid, will automatically have good points to other bid.

India will not go for F-35 for many reasons. firstly, it hasn't been offered and neither India has shown any interest. second, India already has set in motion two similar programs - FGFA and MCA. Procuring F-35 will be death-nail to those two programs and we will be set back decades regarding indigenous a/c building. third, there's a very long list of countries already set to get F-35, so it will be ages till india'll see first of it's F-35. Fourth, even various partner countries in the program doesn't have access to the every aspect of the a/c. Israel also doesn't have full access. Many doubt that US will sell others watered-down version. So india can hardly expect to get the best there is. Fifth, Money.
 

duhastmish

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i dont take you - first para right - its hard to digest - our need for - mrca is totally diffrent to brasil, and it does matter if they order some fighter - it will delay the procurement time of that fighter. means negative point.

now coming to f-35

first : US offers F-35 fighters to India
india was offered the - f-35 , so we can go for it.

second : we do have fgfa, and mca , first fgfa is a russian fighter and mca we have no clue if we will get it in 2020 or 2030 or will we even get it at all?
i think - f-35 is totally diffrent fighter - our navy had shown lot of intrest in f-35, the problem is timing of project , it will be delayed in procurement.

third : long list of countries alright - but then if we are goign to ger our f/1 18 in 2016 - it will be better to go for f-35 in 2016.

fourth: i totally agree with you there - we surely wont be getting any tot there, but its joint progrmme i doubt us have such a huge say that it can deny the partners - the right technology. yes - india is not very far behind israel -us relation, if we want we will get equal or may be lil better deal than israel.

fifth :
brother its mrca - if we can think about - suro fighter why not f-35.

------------------
although i totally agree we should neevr go for f-35 , since we need these fighters for the numbers and we want them really early ( although our lazy officals are takign too much time) - but looking at the time schedule for f/a 18- sh , i think its not fittign in our need.
 

jackprince

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First, when was India offered F-35? It LM who offered if India went for F-16IN, then in future they would offer F-35. It was nothing official. There would be so many issues to be hashed out between govts.

Second, Of course FGFA will be a russian a/c. One might like to remember our primary weapons all are Russian and have been for a long time; and they had proven again and again that they are damn good in actual war in indian hands, against much hallowed western fighters.

HAL had learned a lot during LCA project and will learn during FGFA project, which eventually bring about MCA. Don't forget even F-35 project was many times delayed and cost projection over-ran too much. Here we are talking about a completely new generation of plane with unique features that our engineers and scientists are going build from the scratch. Buying an expensive plane doesn't ever mean that the buyer gets the technical know-how to improve on the bought item.

btw, Naval F-35 is totally diff. than land-based ones. Let the IAF's MMRCA deal come through first. IAF didn't show any interest officially as far as I know.

Third, I don't think even by 2016 or 2020 a squadron of F-35 can be delivered to India.

Fourth, i don't know why everyone insists that US-India relationship is in their honeymoon?!!! It of course was better during george w., but with obama it again deteriorated.

Fifth, the unit cost of the MMRCA's will be much less when it will be manufactured locally. So, a $50-$70 million unit cost will go down considerably. But F-35 will not be manufactured in India, so there wouldn't be any question of price going down.


Lastly, whatever you or I say the planes will come from these MMRCA list. So there's no point arguing whther to go for F-35 or not. IAF or GOI wont go for any other plane at this later date, period.
 

duhastmish

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without derailign the thread - i guess - i totally agree - we will get our fighter from - the mrca list, may be - if we go for - f-16 in we can have f-35 for navy but even that seems impossible to me - since maintainance and service infrastructure we will need will be totally diffrent.

And american fighters are surely not the right way to go about , since - we never know what america do one day if they are pissed they can screw our happiness. I am hopeful we go for Rafael . with new aesa and on time delivery system. with good TOT.
 

p2prada

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The above article puts the fly away cost of Rafale at $130 million, The rafale doesn't cost 50 million euros, dream on. Besides the F-3 is not what we are looking for, our Rafale will cost more and i dont buy the Rafale being more tech advanced either, sure it has a newer airframe, good EW suite, good IRST and good aero performance besides that the Rafale falls in real combat effectiveness compared to the SH. The SH has LM's most advanced IRST, better AESA, can carry more A2A missiles and drop many more types of pgms and missiles at lower costs, has a newer engine, is far more network centric, its easier to fly and a really mature combat aircraft. Rafale remains an unproven aircraft just like the tiffy. Besides the SH already has upgrades being developed past 2020 with block 3.
Negative. But, looks like I cannot argue with you using reason. The person I quoted worked for USN for 25 years and then Lockheed martin for 10 years. So, I guess he knows a tad bit more than you do.
 

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Lockheed Martin renews "solid commitment to Indian market" with new CEO

Washington/New Delhi, Aug 11 (IANS) Lockheed Martin has named Roger Rose as its new Chief Executive for India, with responsibility for coordinating the US security company's relationship and ongoing programme execution in India.

Rose succeeds Douglas Hartwick who led the corporation's New Delhi office through the creation of Lockheed Martin India Private Limited and helped explore potential opportunities in all aspects of cooperation with the Indian government and corporate partners, the Bethesda, Maryland, headquartered company announced Tuesday.

Hartwick has been appointed special advisor to the corporation's International Business Development team with a focus on strategic alignment to address the Indian government's evolving global security needs.

"Lockheed Martin approaches the Indian market with a solid commitment and a dedicated in-country presence with our office in New Delhi," said Lockheed Martin Vice President of Corporate International Business Development, Pat Dewar.

"Roger brings a wealth of programme execution experience to his new position and he will continue to expand on the solid foundation that Doug has provided through the stand-up of Lockheed Martin India Private Limited. Roger's appointment will ensure our valued relationship with the Indian government is fully supported for the long-term."

The Lockheed Martin F-16I Super Viper is one of the six fighters in contention for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft, with the numbers likely to go up to 200. The IAF has also purchased six Lockheed Martim C-130j Super Hercules aircraft in a deal valued at over $1 billion.

In his prior assignment, Rose led the corporation's electronic systems business efforts to bring the latest in naval surface and submarine combat systems, ocean exploration, and alternative energy solutions to the Indian marketplace, the company said.

He is a retired career US Navy officer in the Submarine Service and has more than 10-years of hands-on international business and policy experience, including a posting as the US Naval Attache to Israel, and frequent travel to South Asia over the past six years.

A graduate of the US Naval Academy with a bachelor of science degree in ocean engineering, Rose also holds a master's degree in physics from the University of Washington.

Lockheed Martin, a global security company with reported 2008 sales of $42.7 billion, is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services.

Mangalorean.Com- Serving Mangaloreans Around The World!
 

RPK

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Strategic considerations may influence MMRCA deal

New Delhi, Aug 11 (PTI) Ahead of the flight trials of six contenders for India's USD 10-billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract this month, strategic considerations may influence government's final decision, Indian Air Force (IAF) sources said here today.

"Strategic issues may influence the decision as the Cabinet Committee on Security will take a final call based on political and strategic considerations. The winner of the 126 combat aircraft contract need not necessarily be the lowest bidder," senior IAF officials said.

They were answering to a question if bitter past experiences with Russia on spare supplies and US over technology denials would be taken into consideration before the mother of all defence deals was awarded.
 
J

John

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Negative. But, looks like I cannot argue with you using reason. The person I quoted worked for USN for 25 years and then Lockheed martin for 10 years. So, I guess he knows a tad bit more than you do.
well neither the USN or LM makes the SH or Rafale, either way we wont have clear idea till the deal is signed, we then go on and make a good estimate, but i just dont buy Rafale selling for 50 million euros simply because in every deal so far their price estimates have been very high, look at UAE, they themselves say the deal without weapons, training and support could reach anywhere between $8-$11 billion, hence the price is between $133 and $183 million.

Also Boeing themselves say the SH deal for Brazil including weapons, support, training etc will cost $193 million per aircraft with the total value reaching $7 billion. The SH is also more expensive than $55 million. The Rafale's cost per aircraft with weapons, training and support will easily cross the $200 million mark.

Ares Homepage

UPDATE 1-France hopeful of sale of 60 Rafale jets to UAE | Reuters

Even if Brazil orders the SH, it wont hurt our deliveries because Boeing's SH line is the only fighter production line which is over 3 months ahead of schedule with over 40 aircraft being built in a year, its also the fastest production rate. Rafale is built at 14 aircraft a year though it can be increased, the French however recently cut production, at this pace we wont get a rafale till 2014/2015 if UAE/brazil order the Rafale.

Besides why on earth will the US give any access to any country to the F-35's secrets, they spent billions and years developing it and now with-in 3 years give away know-how to Issy ? no way, besides thanx to Issy China has Harpys, Delilahs, the J-10 (due to Lavi), US always has to keep Issy on a leash. because almost every weapon in Issy inventory has some US technology. Even our Phalcon comes thanx only to the US which cleared it sale. Our increased buying of US platforms shows that our relations are growing so get used to it. Apache block 3, V-22, C-17, Chinook, Aegis will also be acquired. The MOD could have excluded all US aircraft from the MRCA and other competitions looking at old relations but heck the inclusion of their platforms was acceptable moreover crucial to the MOD. If it wasn't for the SH, the deal would not have been so competitive, SH was the first up the ante with AESA etc. Now do you really think that US govt. is so stupid to screw India, India is bound to be the largest free market for goods and services, do u think that the US can afford to do so, to loose access to what is to be the largest market in the world?? This argument of US being untrustworthy is getting really old, really really old. I can understand if you say don't go for SH or the viper due to their mature airframes, but to say dont buy US platforms due to our past is ridiculous, because this is a open and fair deal, every contender will have equal opportunity to put up a good fight. hence may the ideal aircraft win. now even if we go for Rafale we'll have to depend on the US weapons to be any effective, what if US refuses weapons, well the rafale/EF becomes pretty much an expensive dud.

early on India was given the option to become partner of the f-35 program but we refused it. The F-35 is a gr8 buy and i know eventually we will get a few of them atleast the STOVL f-35 B.
 

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Multi-role combat aircraft trial in Bangalore

13/08/09

India’s search for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft at a cost of Rs 42,000 crore is set to begin in Bangalore within a few days as all groundwork have been completed.



Technical evaluation and trials will be conducted in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh at a “no-cost no-commitment” basis. An additional weapon firing trial will be conducted in the manufacturing country.

The fighters in contention are the USA’s F-16 Falcon from Lockheed Martin and F/A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing, Sweden’s Gripen (JAS-39); Rafale from France’s Dassault Aviation, Russian MiG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon from European consortium EADS.
Barring Typhoon and Grippen, other four flew in the Bangalore air show in February last. “The trial process should be over by the middle of 2010,” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official said here on Tuesday. He, however, did not disclose the schedule.

Once the trials are over, the IAF will submit its evaluation report to the Defence Ministry which will initiate the commercial negotiations. The fighters are not expected to join service at least before 2014. However, zeroing in on the final vendor will be the responsibility of Cabinet Committee on Security headed by the prime minister.

“It’s a political decision taken after considering strategic and geo-political conditions. The chosen vendor need not be the L1 (one with lowest price but fitting the IAF requirements),” he said. None of the six vendors will be provided with any information during the trial, though they will be present at the occasion.

While 18 MMRCA will be purchased in flyaway conditions, the remaining 108 will be manufactured at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

Multi-role combat aircraft trial in Bangalore
 

RPK

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MoD's mixed messages in medium fighter contest


This weekend, two Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet fighters will land in Bangalore for flight trials by the Indian Air Force (IAF), an eight-month-long selection process, involving six different aircrafts, to zero in on a multi-role medium fighter for the IAF.

India’s defence ministry (MoD) has billed this Rs 42,000 crore purchase, currently the world’s biggest international arms tender, as also the world’s most transparent. The MoD declares that the tender document specifies every detail of what the IAF needs, and whichever company meets those requirements, at the cheapest cost, will walk away with the order.

But now, contradictory messages are emerging; the mantra no longer seems to be “a specified capability for the cheapest price”.

Instead, MoD and IAF officers are apparently telling vendors like EADS — which has offered the high-priced and high-performance Eurofighter — that extra performance will win extra points.

Bernhard Gerwert, CEO Military Air Systems for EADS, travelled last week to Delhi to assess whether it was worth spending millions of dollars to put the Eurofighter through flight trials in India. If Eurofighter’s superlative performance, superior in several respects than the Indian tender requirements, would win no extra credit, Gerwert was prepared to pull out of the competition.

But the MoD provided the reassurance he was looking for. A relieved Gerwert told Business Standard after his meetings, “The feedback that we have gotten after meetings in Delhi with the MoD and the IAF is that they will test more than just compliance with the tender. The IAF will take into account the performance excellence of each aircraft during flight trials.”

After the relieved EADS team departed from Delhi on 7th August, Business Standard again asked senior IAF officials whether a fighter that demonstrated outstanding performance during flight-testing would win extra credits.

The IAF’s answer was an unambiguous negative. “We will not be comparing the aircraft with one another. We have made out a “Compliance Matrix”, and we will only require each fighter’s performance to comply with what we have demanded in the RfP (Request for Proposals, or the tender). There are no extra points for having, say, 50% extra capability. Each contender just has to meet the IAF’s laid down requirements.”

This situation stems from the IAF’s unusually broad definition of a medium fighter. This contest has brought into the arena a range of aircraft, with significant variations in performance — from the 14-tonne, single-engine Gripen to the 30-tonne, double-engine Super Hornet.

At the end of the flight-testing next May, predict experts, the IAF might have four or more aircraft that comply fully with the MoD’s tender.

In that case, the cheapest bid will win, with the MoD evaluating costs on a “Life Cycle” basis. That includes all the costs over a 30-40 year life-cycle, adding the per unit purchase price to the costs of technology, indigenous manufacture, infrastructure, repair and maintenance, operating expenses, and a host of other hidden costs. The IAF calls it “Cost of Ownership”; this method of calculation is being adopted for the first time by India for a capital equipment purchase from abroad.

Western vendors, whose military equipment has traditionally had higher ticket prices, claim that the “Cost of Ownership” calculation will tilt the equation in their favour, especially when compared with Russian equipment that they accuse of being maintenance-heavy, demanding vast quantities of spares, and spending more time on the ground than in the air.
 

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Russia aims to start making MiG-35 fighters for India in 2013

20:4513/08/2009
NIZHNY NOVGOROD (central Russia), August 13 (RIA Novosti) - Production of MiG-35 multirole fighters offered for sale to India cannot start before 2013 or 2014, a Russian aircraft maker said on Thursday.

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F), is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high acclaim during the Le Bourget air show in France last year.

"We have begun testing the MiG-35 fighter for the Indian tender," said Alexander Karezin, general director of the Sokol company based in Nizhny Novgorod.

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

Sokol earlier said that the first two MiG-35 aircraft would be delivered to India in August for test flights prior to the award of the tender. In late 2009, Russia will conduct a series of flight tests with live firing for an Indian Air Force delegation at one of the testing grounds on the Russian territory.

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.

Moscow said if MiG-35 wins the tender, Russia is ready to transfer all key technology to India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and provide assistance for the production of the aircraft in the country.
 

SATISH

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F-18s to fly over Bangalore today



Ravi Sharma







BANGALORE: Boeing Integrated Defence System’s F/A-18 Hornet, one of the U.S. Navy’s frontline air platforms will take to the skies over Bangalore from Saturday. The all-weather, carrier-capable multirole fighter, which is designed to attack both ground and aerial targets, is one of the six contenders for a $10-billion contract to deliver to the Indian Air Force 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA).

Two F/A-18s — one single-seater and the other twin-seater — will take part in the MMRCA flight evaluation trials (FET) starting August 17. Bangalore has been chosen the venue for the evaluation under normal climatic conditions.

Official sources told The Hindu that there would be a full-scale briefing for the Boeing team by the Indian MMRCA team on Saturday on the aspects of evaluation and flight and ground tests that are to be undertaken.


The IAF’s test pilots on the Indian Evaluation Team — Group Captain Dixit and Wing Commander Chauhan — will also get to fly and experience first hand the American fighter’s flying characteristics.

The team also has three flight test engineers, and representatives from the Defence Ministry, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the Defence and Research Development Organisation, the Directorate-General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance and the Air Headquarters.

Besides the F/A-18s, the contenders in the race for the ‘mother of all Indian defence deals’ are the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company’s Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Fighting Falcon, Russia’s Mikoyan MiG-35, Sweden’s Gripen JAS-39 and the French Dassault’s Rafale.

Following the F/A-18s into Bangalore for the flight trials will be the F-16s, which Lockheed Martin are flying in from the United Arab Emirates (the only air force whose F-16s are equipped with active electronically scanned array radars). The French Rafale is scheduled to be in Bangalore from September 21, while the MiG-35 will arrive in October. In November, the Indian evaluation teams will emplane for Germany and Sweden to familiarise themselves with the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Gripen JAS-39. Both fighters are expected in Bangalore next February and March.

The Hindu : National : F-18s to fly over Bangalore today
 

pyromaniac

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The great Indian duel

Six fighter aircraft are facing off in the world's toughest testing ground.
Over the last weeks, two Indian air force aces have busied themselves with what might well be the world’s most expensive video game: sitting at a simulator in the US and learning to fly one of the world’s most advanced fighters, Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet. Trained on the simulator, they were strapped into the real thing, gunning the twin F-414 turbofan engines to hurtle into the sky at speeds touching 2000 kmph.

Through the coming fortnight, those pilots will test-fly the Super Hornet in India, scrutinising every aspect of its performance to decide whether it meets the air force’s requirements for a medium multi-role combat aircraft to defend Indian skies, and support Indian ground troops, over the next four decades. There are six contenders for this massive Indian tender for 126 medium fighters, an order worth some $11 billion dollars. Besides Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin has offered the F-16IN Super Viper; there’s the MiG-35 from Russia’s RAC MiG; the Rafale, offered by French company Dassault; the Gripen NG from Sweden’s Saab; and the
Eurofighter Typhoon offered by a four-nation European consortium.

Over the next eight months, four pilots will fly and fire all six fighters to evaluate which of them meet the stringent requirements spelt out in the air force tender. This duel has been in the making for eight years — that’s how long it has taken the defence ministry to frame its requirements, issue a global tender, and do a paper evaluation of the six responses that were received. Now, finally, the ball is in the air force’s court, to see how the aircraft perform in the air. Being tested first, over the next two months, will be the two American fighters and the Russian MiG-35. Then, after a five-month winter hiatus, the three European aircraft will be put through their paces.

The air force has assembled a team of its hottest top guns for evaluating the six fighters in the fray. Overseeing the entire testing process will be Air Commodore Rakesh Dhir, principal director, Air Staff Requirements at air headquarters in New Delhi. He will have two separate teams to do the actual flight-testing, the first of which will evaluate the two US fighters and the Russian aircraft, while the other will test the three European fighters in three types of terrain: humid Bangalore, the desert heat of Jaisalmer, and the freezing high altitude desert of Ladakh. Any failure could signal the end of a campaign that will set back each of the contenders around $25-30 million.

Two Boeing F/A-18 will land this weekend at Bangalore, the home of India’s secretive flight testing agency, the Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment. Like Boeing, each company plans to bring in at least two fighters, in case any one faces technical problems. Accompanying the fighters will be fully equipped maintenance teams to iron out niggles daily, after the Indian test pilots finish throwing the fighters around the sky.

After the testing in Bangalore, each team will travel for two days to Jaisalmer to test aircraft performance in the desert heat. During the Jaisalmer leg, each contender will also drop unguided bombs at a ground target placed in the Pokhran range. But the really high-tech weaponry — guided by radar, infrared or laser — will be tested in each aircraft’s home base. Switching on airborne radar is a strict no-no when there is the remotest possibility of it being recorded by a foreign country. An aircraft’s radar signal is as unique to it as a fingerprint is to an individual. Every major air force, India’s included, maintains a worldwide “library” of radar signals; aircraft in those libraries can be identified whenever they switch on their radar.

But the sting has been taken out of the desert trials; the summer is practically over. Months of defence ministry inactivity, caused by the general elections, has resulted in “hot weather” trials being scheduled in a balmy 35-40 degrees Centigrade, rather than the searing 50 degree heat of a real Jaisalmer summer. Officials from Eurofighter, which sailed through summer trials in the Saudi Arabian desert, grumble that the ministry lost an opportunity to discover the contenders’ vulnerabilities.

From Jaisalmer, the fighters will head for the trickiest part of the trials, to Ladakh. On the face of it, there isn’t much to do at Leh airport: each fighter must land with a specified load of weapons and fuel, switch off its engines and systems, the pilot must alight and do a quick visual check of his aircraft, during which the cold starts to seep into the aircraft components. Then he must start up the fighter’s engines and systems, without external help, and take off. Sounds simple, but this is the phase that is giving the contenders nightmares. At 10,682 feet, oxygen levels are so low that there is real danger of the aircraft engines not starting up after they are switched off. And, once started, the oxygen-starved engines will strain to lift the fighters off that short airfield, even with a reduced payload that would be child’s play at sea level.

A specially selected air force test pilot of the rank of group captain will head each of the two test teams. Flying in tandem with him will be another junior pilot; it will quickly become clear whether the fighter can be handled comfortably by a less experienced pilot. Each team will include a clutch of technicians: an avionics system engineer to check the on-board electronic warfare equipment; a flight test engineer for performance related issues; a maintenance engineer to observe each fighter before and after each sortie. Making up the rest of each eight-10 person team will be a logistician to evaluate how easily the spare parts and consumables can be kept flowing; technicians from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, where the fighter will eventually be built, and officials from certification and quality assurance agencies.

It will be a keenly watched duel not just in India but across the world — it isn’t everyday that a $11 billion tender comes your way.

A problem of plenty

TThe defence ministry rulebook that governs purchases reduces the medium fighter competition to three simple steps. Firstly, the air force specifies exactly the performance it wants from its proposed medium fighter. Next, it flies and evaluates all the aircraft on offer to see which ones meet all those requirements. Finally, the ministry orders the cheapest of those that qualify.

The most challenging of these steps is the first. Each detail of a fighter’s performance — the runway length it must take off in, its rate of climb, turning radius, maximum and minimum speeds, range of operation, weapons payload, radar pickup, and dozens of similar parameters — must be painstakingly quantified. Once those are down, step two becomes easy: the test pilots fly each aircraft, checking the parameters to see whether they match up to those that are laid down.

If there’s a hitch in the competition, it’s a problem of plenty. If aircraft companies are to be believed, there’s a good possibility that all six aircraft might qualify. That would make the price the final determinant. The cheapest aircraft — with costs calculated over its entire life of 30-40 years — will walk away with the order.

This situation has arisen because the air force has — to use an automobile analogy — set out to buy a Maruti-type car, but invited Rolls Royce, Jaguar, BMW and Audi to the bidding, along with Maruti and Hyundai. Four of the fighters in the fray (F/A-18, MiG-35, Eurofighter and Rafale) are expensive, two-engine powerhouses in the 25-30 tonne range. The other two (F-16IN and Gripen) are single-engine aircraft and, therefore, lighter (15-20 tonnes) and cheaper. And since avionics, sensors, radars and missiles are compact and light, the single-engine fighters are almost as combat-capable as their bigger rivals.

Experts agree that if the ministry plays by the rules, the Swedish Gripen — the lightest and apparently cheapest contender — will walk away with the contract. The single-engine F-16IN may be very close behind. The superior range and weapons payload of the heavier fighters will earn them no brownie points.

But the vendors fielding the twin-engine behemoths are confident of their chances. Admitting that their purchase price may be higher, they say that when the cost of ownership is calculated over 30-40 years, their lower maintenance and spare parts costs, and higher aircraft availability, will tilt the economics in their favour. And Eurofighter chief Bernhard Gerwert told Business Standard in Delhi last week that superlative flying and combat performance would definitely count. “The feedback we have got after meetings in Delhi with the ministry and the air force is that they will test more than just compliance with the tender,” he said. “The air force will take into account the performance excellence of each aircraft.”

The air force refutes this. Says a senior officer, “We don’t compare the aircraft with each other, we compare them with the tender requirements, filling in a compliance matrix.”

Amidst this uncertainty, and with billions at stake, the aerospace corporations have launched a media blitz to harness public and political opinion. Journalists, astronauts, corporate honchos, medal-winning athletes and politicians have been taken up for high-profile joyrides. NDTV anchor Vishnu Som has flown co-pilot on four of the six aircraft, more than any of the air force test pilots will be able to claim. The game is on.


The great Indian duel
 
J

John

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The great Indian duel
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi August 15, 2009, 0:11 IST

Six fighter aircraft are facing off in the world's toughest testing ground.

Over the last weeks, two Indian air force aces have busied themselves with what might well be the world’s most expensive video game: sitting at a simulator in the US and learning to fly one of the world’s most advanced fighters, Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet. Trained on the simulator, they were strapped into the real thing, gunning the twin F-414 turbofan engines to hurtle into the sky at speeds touching 2000 kmph.

Through the coming fortnight, those pilots will test-fly the Super Hornet in India, scrutinising every aspect of its performance to decide whether it meets the air force’s requirements for a medium multi-role combat aircraft to defend Indian skies, and support Indian ground troops, over the next four decades. There are six contenders for this massive Indian tender for 126 medium fighters, an order worth some $11 billion dollars. Besides Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin has offered the F-16IN Super Viper; there’s the MiG-35 from Russia’s RAC MiG; the Rafale, offered by French company Dassault; the Gripen NG from Sweden’s Saab; and the

Eurofighter Typhoon offered by a four-nation European consortium.

Over the next eight months, four pilots will fly and fire all six fighters to evaluate which of them meet the stringent requirements spelt out in the air force tender. This duel has been in the making for eight years — that’s how long it has taken the defence ministry to frame its requirements, issue a global tender, and do a paper evaluation of the six responses that were received. Now, finally, the ball is in the air force’s court, to see how the aircraft perform in the air. Being tested first, over the next two months, will be the two American fighters and the Russian MiG-35. Then, after a five-month winter hiatus, the three European aircraft will be put through their paces.

The air force has assembled a team of its hottest top guns for evaluating the six fighters in the fray. Overseeing the entire testing process will be Air Commodore Rakesh Dhir, principal director, Air Staff Requirements at air headquarters in New Delhi. He will have two separate teams to do the actual flight-testing, the first of which will evaluate the two US fighters and the Russian aircraft, while the other will test the three European fighters in three types of terrain: humid Bangalore, the desert heat of Jaisalmer, and the freezing high altitude desert of Ladakh. Any failure could signal the end of a campaign that will set back each of the contenders around $25-30 million.

Two Boeing F/A-18 will land this weekend at Bangalore, the home of India’s secretive flight testing agency, the Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment. Like Boeing, each company plans to bring in at least two fighters, in case any one faces technical problems. Accompanying the fighters will be fully equipped maintenance teams to iron out niggles daily, after the Indian test pilots finish throwing the fighters around the sky.

After the testing in Bangalore, each team will travel for two days to Jaisalmer to test aircraft performance in the desert heat. During the Jaisalmer leg, each contender will also drop unguided bombs at a ground target placed in the Pokhran range. But the really high-tech weaponry — guided by radar, infrared or laser — will be tested in each aircraft’s home base. Switching on airborne radar is a strict no-no when there is the remotest possibility of it being recorded by a foreign country. An aircraft’s radar signal is as unique to it as a fingerprint is to an individual. Every major air force, India’s included, maintains a worldwide “library” of radar signals; aircraft in those libraries can be identified whenever they switch on their radar.

But the sting has been taken out of the desert trials; the summer is practically over. Months of defence ministry inactivity, caused by the general elections, has resulted in “hot weather” trials being scheduled in a balmy 35-40 degrees Centigrade, rather than the searing 50 degree heat of a real Jaisalmer summer. Officials from Eurofighter, which sailed through summer trials in the Saudi Arabian desert, grumble that the ministry lost an opportunity to discover the contenders’ vulnerabilities.

From Jaisalmer, the fighters will head for the trickiest part of the trials, to Ladakh. On the face of it, there isn’t much to do at Leh airport: each fighter must land with a specified load of weapons and fuel, switch off its engines and systems, the pilot must alight and do a quick visual check of his aircraft, during which the cold starts to seep into the aircraft components. Then he must start up the fighter’s engines and systems, without external help, and take off. Sounds simple, but this is the phase that is giving the contenders nightmares. At 10,682 feet, oxygen levels are so low that there is real danger of the aircraft engines not starting up after they are switched off. And, once started, the oxygen-starved engines will strain to lift the fighters off that short airfield, even with a reduced payload that would be child’s play at sea level.

A specially selected air force test pilot of the rank of group captain will head each of the two test teams. Flying in tandem with him will be another junior pilot; it will quickly become clear whether the fighter can be handled comfortably by a less experienced pilot. Each team will include a clutch of technicians: an avionics system engineer to check the on-board electronic warfare equipment; a flight test engineer for performance related issues; a maintenance engineer to observe each fighter before and after each sortie. Making up the rest of each eight-10 person team will be a logistician to evaluate how easily the spare parts and consumables can be kept flowing; technicians from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, where the fighter will eventually be built, and officials from certification and quality assurance agencies.

It will be a keenly watched duel not just in India but across the world — it isn’t everyday that a $11 billion tender comes your way.

A problem of plenty

TThe defence ministry rulebook that governs purchases reduces the medium fighter competition to three simple steps. Firstly, the air force specifies exactly the performance it wants from its proposed medium fighter. Next, it flies and evaluates all the aircraft on offer to see which ones meet all those requirements. Finally, the ministry orders the cheapest of those that qualify.

The most challenging of these steps is the first. Each detail of a fighter’s performance — the runway length it must take off in, its rate of climb, turning radius, maximum and minimum speeds, range of operation, weapons payload, radar pickup, and dozens of similar parameters — must be painstakingly quantified. Once those are down, step two becomes easy: the test pilots fly each aircraft, checking the parameters to see whether they match up to those that are laid down.

If there’s a hitch in the competition, it’s a problem of plenty. If aircraft companies are to be believed, there’s a good possibility that all six aircraft might qualify. That would make the price the final determinant. The cheapest aircraft — with costs calculated over its entire life of 30-40 years — will walk away with the order.

This situation has arisen because the air force has — to use an automobile analogy — set out to buy a Maruti-type car, but invited Rolls Royce, Jaguar, BMW and Audi to the bidding, along with Maruti and Hyundai. Four of the fighters in the fray (F/A-18, MiG-35, Eurofighter and Rafale) are expensive, two-engine powerhouses in the 25-30 tonne range. The other two (F-16IN and Gripen) are single-engine aircraft and, therefore, lighter (15-20 tonnes) and cheaper. And since avionics, sensors, radars and missiles are compact and light, the single-engine fighters are almost as combat-capable as their bigger rivals.

Experts agree that if the ministry plays by the rules, the Swedish Gripen — the lightest and apparently cheapest contender — will walk away with the contract. The single-engine F-16IN may be very close behind. The superior range and weapons payload of the heavier fighters will earn them no brownie points.

But the vendors fielding the twin-engine behemoths are confident of their chances. Admitting that their purchase price may be higher, they say that when the cost of ownership is calculated over 30-40 years, their lower maintenance and spare parts costs, and higher aircraft availability, will tilt the economics in their favour. And Eurofighter chief Bernhard Gerwert told Business Standard in Delhi last week that superlative flying and combat performance would definitely count. “The feedback we have got after meetings in Delhi with the ministry and the air force is that they will test more than just compliance with the tender,” he said. “The air force will take into account the performance excellence of each aircraft.”

The air force refutes this. Says a senior officer, “We don’t compare the aircraft with each other, we compare them with the tender requirements, filling in a compliance matrix.”

Amidst this uncertainty, and with billions at stake, the aerospace corporations have launched a media blitz to harness public and political opinion. Journalists, astronauts, corporate honchos, medal-winning athletes and politicians have been taken up for high-profile joyrides. NDTV anchor Vishnu Som has flown co-pilot on four of the six aircraft, more than any of the air force test pilots will be able to claim. The game is on.

The great Indian duel
 

icecoolben

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So we let go of the most parched, hot and demanding summer to test the six aircrafts just like that. The europeon consortium is already aware of the cost factors, their fighter is the costliest, most maintenance intensive. So iaf staff is going to home ground to check them out. The saab gripen has taken the chance to stay put and get tested. The rafales were hardly available for air show banglore, they got knocked out and got a back door re-entry. So why bother to expect them to coming here. The russians seem to think its 'sunday mom' and make a statement that production for indian offer can only come after 2012-13 Russia : Zee News. They'll bring their aircrafts only by october. When it should be them who should take the lead and prove who the big boys really are. Of all this drama "hats off to the americans, companies" its their first bidding for a fighter air-craft in india. still 1.they have been prompt all the way from the tender issual to being the first on the field 2.they have brought their aircrafts for all the air shows in india promptly from 2006 the competition started3.from a virtual nil 7 years ago to now a well establised organisation of offices, lobbies, partners etc, especially lockheed martin though touted that the fighter never had a chance since pak already has it. Has not detered them from marketing it aggressively, roping in sports personalities for flambouancy etc. 4. The first aircraft to up the aesa was the f/a-18 that prompted the air-staff itself to look at the future senario the fighters would encounter. A proposal to bring the f-16 production line to india that has in the past been offered to only trusted american allies, a proposal by boeing to bring the unit cost of f-18 to $40 million, that has been made not even to congress. 5. Finally inspite of the rheotic that their country is the most un-reliable partner, they are here,,the first to set the stage for what is touted to be the mother of all defence deals is the 21 st century.
 

venom

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Russia begins testing MiG-35 ahead of field trials in India

Nizhny Novgorod: The Russian manufacturer of the MiG-35 advanced air superiority fighter has said that it has begun testing the MiG-35 ahead of field trials that have now commenced in India. It also said that production of the MiG-35 multirole fighters, on offer to India for its multi-role medium range combat aircraft (MMRCA) global tender, can commence only around 2013 or 2014.

The MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F), is a highly manoeuvrable air superiority fighter, with an even more advanced engine than that available with the Sukhoi-30MKI.

MiG 35

"We have begun testing the MiG-35 fighter for the Indian tender," said Alexander Karezin, director general of the Sokol company based in Nizhny Novgorod. When, and if, the MiG-35 wins a contract for the Indian MMRCA or any other tender, Sokol would be the manufacturing base for the aircraft.

Six global aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention for the $11 billion MMRCA contract for 126 fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

Sokol had announced earlier that the first two MiG-35 aircraft would be delivered to India in August for test flights and will conduct a series of flight tests with live firing for an Indian Air Force delegation at one of the testing grounds on the Russian territory sometime in late 2009.

domain-b.com : Russia begins testing MiG-35 ahead of field trials in India
 

pyromaniac

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More bad news for Delhi, Mig 35s delayed by a decade

After the colossla failure of the Kevari engine and the Ligh Combat Aircraft (LCA), which has been in the design phase for more than 20 years, the IAF is struggling to replace its Flying Coffins (Migs 21s). The crash rate of the IAF is the highest in the world. About 300-500 Mig 21s have crashed. Delhi blames Moscow for sending it shoddy planes. Moscow blames Delhi for horrid local parts that don’t work. Desperate for planes, the IAF decided to spend about $10 Billion for foreign air craft.

The tender bid for 126 planes has been submitted and a final decision is awaited in a few weeks. The MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, is a stripped down version of the Russian MiG-29M OVT which is exported to third world countries. When, and if, the MiG-35 wins a contract for the Indian MMRCA or any other tender, Sokol would be the manufacturing base for the aircraft. Russia has remianed very vague about the final configuration of the MiG-35’s onboard equipment. There is no information available on the On Board radar. The Zhuk-ME, Bars-29, and ELTA Systems’ EL/M-2052 radars are possible options.

NIZHNY NOVOGORD – Production of MiG-35 multirole fighters offered for sale to India cannot start before 2013 or 2014, a Russian aircraft maker has said.

“We have begun testing the MiG-35 fighter for the Indian tender,” Alexander Karezin, general director of the Sokol company based in Nizhny Novgorod, said Thursday.

Russia’s MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F), is a highly manoeuvrable air superiority fighter, which won high acclaim during the Le Bourget air show in France last year.

Six major aircraft makers — Lockheed and Boeing from the US, Russia’s MiG, which is part of the UAC, France’s Dassault, Sweden’s Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies — are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Sokol earlier said that the first two MiG-35 aircraft would be delivered to India in August for test flights prior to the award of the tender. In late 2009, Russia will conduct a series of flight tests with live firing for an IAF delegation at a testing ground in Russia.

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior manoeuvrability and enhance the fighter’s performance in close air engagements, its manufacturers say. RIA Novosti

The export versions of Mig 35s are actually part of the family of MiG-29 fighters that includes the MiG-29M/M2 and the MiG-29K/KUB versions. Lockheed Martin, Saab and Russian Sukho and Migs have all put in thier offer.

Six global aircraft makers – Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia’s MiG, which is part of the UAC, France’s Dassault, Sweden’s Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies – are in contention for the $11 billion MMRCA contract for 126 fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force. Domain B

The issue is that American private manufacturers will never commit commercial suicide by giving up their secret “Coke Formula“. Similarly one of the biggest exports for Russia are her planes and missiles. It cannot let a Delhi aligned with Washington have the ability to compete with the Russian arms industry. A decade ago when USSR did not have the oil and it was really hungry for cash, Moscow sold Bharat a lot of equipment. Now things have changed. “Russia’s state arms exporter Rosoboronexport has said military aircraft will continue to dominate the company’s foreign sales in 2009, and will total about $2.6 billion (Domain B).” The geostrategic landscape in South Asia has been transformed. Moscow watches Delhi’s closeness with Washington with suspicion. Russia has recently reached out to Pakistan to build train and pipelines linking Pakistan to the Tajikistan and Iran. Gorprom, the Russian Oil company is ready to help in building the Iran-Pakistan pipeline.

The fiasco of the price of the Russian Aircraft carrier describes the Delhi-Moscow relationship. The endless haggling over the price of the air craft career predicted Delhi’s predicament on the sale of the Mig 35s. Moscow now informs Delhi that it cannot begin the supply ’till 2014. Based on previous experience, it is a matter of record that planes from Russia are prone to perpetual delays and price hikes. It is not beyond comprehension that sensing a bit of a tiff between Delhi and Washington, Russia is using delay tactics to hike up the price of the Migs that are to be sold to Bharat.

Will the Mig delay tilt the balance towards Lockheed Martin? Only time will tell.

When Russian President Dmitry Medvedev visited the shipyard responsible for converting the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov for the Indian navy at the beginning of last month, he suggested there would be “serious consequences” if Moscow failed to deliver.

Political hyperbole aside, the fall-out from India’s effort to secure a new aircraft carrier could turn out to be far-reaching. Aviation Week. Russia, India Continue Carrier Haggling, Aug 13, 2009, By Neelam Mathews in New Delhi and Douglas Barrie in London

The threat supposedly hinted at the $10 Billion plane contract. The current news from Ria Ovosti seems to tell the world how much Russia has taken the Bharati threat seriously.

Medvedev, during a visit to the Sevmash shipyard at Severodvinsk, characterized the carrier program as a “very difficult experience.” This is a view shared by India’s comptroller and auditor general, the authority that audits and assists the state and central institutions on accounts and accountability.

The audit body has been critical of the carrier deal, providing opposition parties with ammunition with which to attack the government. One, the Bhartiya Janta Party, accused the government of buying “junk” at an exorbitant price.

India signed up for the program in 2004, with a delivery date of 2008. The new date for the ship—the INS Vikramaditya—is now set for 2012. Aviation Week. Russia, India Continue Carrier Haggling, Aug 13, 2009, By Neelam Mathews in New Delhi and Douglas Barrie in London

The 12 MiG-29Ks and four MiG-29KUBs, a naval variant of the Fulcrum that came with the Admiral Gorshkov will be delivered a year late. The planes arrive before the Aircraft carrier. However these are meant to land on the Aircraft Career only.

The entire Bharati establishment is built around refurbishing arcane Russian equipment. Introducing Amercan arms with their instrusive inspections, requirements for segration, and pop inspections is going to be a new experience for the IAF. Rupee News would be very surprised if Bharat buys the F-16s. However stranger things have happened in the Bharati quest for modern arms.

Indian Air Force:More bad news for Delhi, Mig 35s delayed by a decade | Pakistan Daily
 

mig-29

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Its been quoted from Pakistan daily so read the report with a pinch of salt and delay or no delay the MRCA aircraft IMO would certainly be a western fighter to give an inventory mix of Russian and western fighters.
 

Yusuf

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I wouldn't take it with a pinch of salt. MMRCA is not going to be delayed, but the other things said in that article are right. Russia is developing the 35 for India and it's likely thst it will not be in production till 2015. But it cam can go beyond that knowing how deadlines are kept there. India will look at production aircraft with operational technology.

American chances keep growing.
 

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