MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[IndianHawk]

No you are getting confused. There is no use of 250 odd MiG 21 type aircraft. Quite frankly the use of even the LCA is severely limited thanks to its size. That's why we will induct very few (123 total) and replace the rest with MWF and other fighters. By the way, ACM B.S. Dhanoa said that the MWF is the replacement for the Mirage 2000, MiG 27 and MiG 29 a few days after Balakot. Unless there is even fresher news, that's the latest update from the IAF. They said they wanted about 200 MWF in addition to 123 LCA.

That is what I originally said. This light medium heavy distinction doesn't fly in era of multirole combat aircraft. That is why saying that rafale replace mig27 is pointless.

We need to look the birds with capabilities angle and not numbers. For example mig 27 was just a ground attack aircraft while rafale is multirole yet rafale could carry twice the payload of mig27 with more precision and more survivability.

So 36 rafale can destroy as much as 72 mig27 and can also be more effective in air than 50-60 mig21 as each rafale can carry more longer range bvr and has large range compare to mig21.

Same goes to su30mki and now even mig29 is multirole with upgrade.

42 sq number is a legacy of single purpose cheap fighter era. We will be much better off with 30 sq of rafale + su30mki + lca/mwf compared to 42 sq of mig21 / mig27/ mig29 and jaguar.

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[Kchontha]

We had 250 mig21 how are 120 mk/mk1a will replace them . That is why they were talking about single engine fighter competition to provide 114 more single engine birds.

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No yaar, 114 is mmrca no 2, it is not a single engine fighter competition. Likely winner is Rafael since f21 is f16 upgrade, gripen e is not foc and mig 35 is mig 29 upgrade. Iaf requires this aircraft because india needs a high end aircraft to counter our enemies and this is the only high end aircraft on offer to india, f35 is not offered to india.

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[Filtercoffee]

The F -15 silent Eagle is the best choice for the 114 aircraft order. Non of the contenders barring the MIG - 35 and the SU - 35, are good enough. All inferior to these three air frames. Boeing compared to Lockheed Martin has been in the country longer, the staff know the flight requirements, LM know PAK better.

The stupid LM support might try to play mischief and try to divert actual fact by making this airframe look amazing putting forth service history and equipment superiority of a new number aircraft which after observing seems aero dynamically inferior.

Also WTF is a F 21?- take it from me they are silently mocking the IAF (Fuck you 21 - read MIG 21 Bison. Their point is ours is better- just an observation). A point, the Defence manufacturing companies go nuts just to prove a point by making an elaborate scenario for billions in sales - Wing Commander Abhinandan Vathaman was unknowingly used like a pawn after the whole Mirage 2000 package bombing and retaliation by the PAF, planned knowing the failure to be selected for requirements due to history of it being the neighborhood adversary top of the line 'defence' aircraft.

On the other hand the Boeing company has planned in advanced knowing the sneaky LM insecure staff. There for the name Silent Eagle.
Also Boeing is a domestic aircraft maker which make them much more in tune with responsibility of carried and security of the same. The other fellows are very stingy in terms of upgrade choices, apart from the UAC offering. I WANT THEM TO SELECT THE EAGLE DUE TO THE SERVICE HISTORY OF THE AIRCRAFT. If bought; we will have the best air superiority western aircraft in the world.

 

[WolfPack86]

Russia To Offer Customizable MiG-35 Jet To India
Russia will offer customizable Mikoyan MiG-35 fighter to the Indian Air Force (IAF) which is looking to acquire 114 combat aircraft to supplement its depleting fleet of fighters.

Russia is open to the idea of integrating additional advanced weapons, local weapons and RD-33OVT engine to provide super maneuverability to meet with the IAF's requirement, idrw.org reported Saturday.

Also included are KRET/Phazotron Zhuk-A radar with active electronically scanned phased-array (AESA), modern electro-optics system with distributed apertures, MSP-418KE active jamming pods, IRST and other capabilities borrowed from country's fifth generation fighter program.



The main competition is between Dassault Rafale, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Saab's Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian MiG-35 and Lockheed Martin F-16.

Lockheed Martin offered India its newly configured F-21 fighters to be manufactured indigenously in the country during the Aero India 2019 airshow. The company has also said that the F-21s will be sold only to India if it places an order for the aircraft.

Meanwhile, Boeing has offered to set up a new facility for the production of Super Hornets in the country along with an option of technology transfer.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/Russia-To-Offer-Customizable-MiG-35-Jet-To-India-585019

 

[Armand2REP]

Meanwhile, Boeing has offered to set up a new facility for the production of Super Hornets in the country along with an option of technology transfer.

I guess you didn't hear the news that Trump has started a trade war with India. Rafale is winning both tenders so don't worry about it.

 

[Kchontha]

Meanwhile namo 2 will be capping Rafael to only 36 this time also.

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[Armand2REP]

Meanwhile namo 2 will be capping Rafael to only 36 this time also.

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An order has to be big enough to establish production under Make in India, that is what the RFI for 114 is for. To buy smaller batches is only advantageous if it is being produced from the Dassault production line. In order to get Indian cost advantage we have to long lead the source of materials into the Reliance production site being set up. Any block upgrades coming to Rafale can be integrated after the fact the same as it is done in France. Now that the initial infra costs are paid for, it will be much easier to explain the true cost of Rafale to the voters who have put their faith in Modi to know what is best for the defence of India. The Chief of the IAF replaced MKI with the Rafale in front of his home, he is also the new COSC Chairman. This is happening in a big way. Now that Trump has declared a trade war on India, France is the only source for cutting edge weapon systems.

 

[Kchontha]

An order has to be big enough to establish production under Make in India, that is what the RFI for 114 is for. To buy smaller batches is only advantageous if it is being produced from the Dassault production line. In order to get Indian cost advantage we have to long lead the source of materials into the Reliance production site being set up. Any block upgrades coming to Rafale can be integrated after the fact the same as it is done in France. Now that the initial infra costs are paid for, it will be much easier to explain the true cost of Rafale to the voters who have put their faith in Modi to know what is best for the defence of India. The Chief of the IAF replaced MKI with the Rafale in front of his home, he is also the new COSC Chairman. This is happening in a big way. Now that Trump has declared a trade war on India, France is the only source for cutting edge weapon systems.

Americans trade war is not recent, it has been since Roosevelt times. India come this far not much with any foreign help. Now india is the 7th largest economy and one of the fastest growing economy. We have weathered American sanction in the past. This is only Potus bluff for his own election times. At the same time the present govt is not going to panic buy anything and will do normal business. I hope French are not also panic selling their toy.

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[Armand2REP]

Americans trade war is not recent, it has been since Roosevelt times. India come this far not much with any foreign help. Now india is the 7th largest economy and one of the fastest growing economy. We have weathered American sanction in the past. This is only Potus bluff for his own election times. At the same time the present govt is not going to panic buy anything and will do normal business. I hope French are not also panic selling their toy.

You weren't buying much American equipment during those times, so it shall be again. Trump is going to be there until 2025 so get used to it.

 

[Arsalan123]

I think iaf will buy more rafales.gripen e is also a good fighter but I think they want the best so I believe they will order more rafales.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I think iaf will buy more rafales.gripen e is also a good fighter but I think they want the best so I believe they will order more rafales.

Rafale 114 tender order confirmed after Modi win.

 

[garg_bharat]

Methinks India should take Mig-35 tech from Russia. We have 3 mig-29upg sq with IAF and 2 mig-29K with Navy.

That's about 120 Mig-29. No harm in taking this number to 300.

Our southern States have very low presence of air force. Even Eastern states have insufficient presence.

We cannot have a situation where air force is concentrated in North and West and rest of areas are ignored.

 

[IndianHawk]

Methinks India should take Mig-35 tech from Russia. We have 3 mig-29upg sq with IAF and 2 mig-29K with Navy.

That's about 120 Mig-29. No harm in taking this number to 300.

Our southern States have very low presence of air force. Even Eastern states have insufficient presence.

We cannot have a situation where air force is concentrated in North and West and rest of areas are ignored.

Mig35 provides no advantage over mwf. Whatever we order will only start coming after 3-4 years anyway and mwf will be ready by 2027. So whatever comes need to be more capable than mwf.

Mig 35 despite being bigger airframe carries just the same payload as mwf. And mwf will probably outrange it as single fuel efficient f414 witha3300kg fuel is more economical than 2 hungry rd33 with 5000kg internal fuel.

In fact mig 35 will be at disadvantages because it will depend on Russian aesa and Russian air to air weaponry. While mwf will have Indian/ Israeli aesa and Indian / Israeli and French European weapons.

With Uttam ready mwf will have no problems getting meteor or anyway sfdr should be near induction by then .

Mwf airframe will also be much more Stealthy than mig35 with much more composite and y shape duct.

Mwf is mini rafale in making giving 80% of rafale capabilities. Only thing mig35 will be better at is manueverability and higher speed at the cost of everything else not to mention maintenance problem , poor engine life and incompetent Russian support.

Only rafale and eurofighter are better than mwf.


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[Armand2REP]

US delivers CAATSA warning to India
Jon Grevatt, Bangkok - Jane's Defence Industry
03 June 2019

India’s planned procurement of the S-400 missile system from Russia (pictured) could put its strong defence ties with the US at risk, a Department of State official has said. Source: IHS Markit/Peter Felstead
The present course of defence ties between India and the United States could be jeopardised if New Delhi goes ahead with its planned procurement of Almaz-Antei S-400 Triumf self-propelled surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems from Russia, a US Department of State official has said.

In comments to Jane’s on 3 June, the official made reference to the strong defence ties that have developed between the US and India but also to the potential for these expanding relations to be affected by New Delhi’s proposed S-400 acquisition and US legislation, the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which proposes penalties on Russian defence customers.

The US official said, “US-India defence ties have seen remarkable growth over the past decade‎. A major new purchase like [the] S-400 puts this positive trajectory at risk and may result in action under the Countering American Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

“For that reason, we urge all of our allies and partners to forgo transactions with Russia that could potentially trigger sanctions. We cannot prejudge whether or not any specific transaction would result in sanctions prior to the Secretary of State's determination.‎ At this time, the Secretary has not made any determination regarding the significance under of any Indian transaction,” the official added.

Since being signed into law in August 2017, CAATSA has been modified by a clause introduced through the US National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) 2019 that allows for a possible CAATSA waiver under certain conditions. However, the US Department of State official said that the waiver clause comes with no assurances.

“We have made it clear that no country should count on a waiver,” said the official. “CAATSA does not have any blanket or country-specific waiver provision. There are strict criteria for considering a waiver, and each transaction is evaluated on a case-by-case basis.”

https://www.janes.com/article/89008/us-delivers-caatsa-warning-to-india

 

[Narasimh]

US delivers CAATSA warning to India
Jon Grevatt, Bangkok - Jane's Defence Industry
03 June 2019

India’s planned procurement of the S-400 missile system from Russia (pictured) could put its strong defence ties with the US at risk, a Department of State official has said. Source: IHS Markit/Peter Felstead
The present course of defence ties between India and the United States could be jeopardised if New Delhi goes ahead with its planned procurement of Almaz-Antei S-400 Triumf self-propelled surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems from Russia, a US Department of State official has said.

In comments to Jane’s on 3 June, the official made reference to the strong defence ties that have developed between the US and India but also to the potential for these expanding relations to be affected by New Delhi’s proposed S-400 acquisition and US legislation, the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which proposes penalties on Russian defence customers.

The US official said, “US-India defence ties have seen remarkable growth over the past decade‎. A major new purchase like [the] S-400 puts this positive trajectory at risk and may result in action under the Countering American Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

“For that reason, we urge all of our allies and partners to forgo transactions with Russia that could potentially trigger sanctions. We cannot prejudge whether or not any specific transaction would result in sanctions prior to the Secretary of State's determination.‎ At this time, the Secretary has not made any determination regarding the significance under of any Indian transaction,” the official added.

Since being signed into law in August 2017, CAATSA has been modified by a clause introduced through the US National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) 2019 that allows for a possible CAATSA waiver under certain conditions. However, the US Department of State official said that the waiver clause comes with no assurances.

“We have made it clear that no country should count on a waiver,” said the official. “CAATSA does not have any blanket or country-specific waiver provision. There are strict criteria for considering a waiver, and each transaction is evaluated on a case-by-case basis.”

https://www.janes.com/article/89008/us-delivers-caatsa-warning-to-india

Same thing repeated again and again by different sources since last year.. again nothing specific said but still news agencies keep the burner on

 

[darshan978]

US delivers CAATSA warning to India
Jon Grevatt, Bangkok - Jane's Defence Industry
03 June 2019

India’s planned procurement of the S-400 missile system from Russia (pictured) could put its strong defence ties with the US at risk, a Department of State official has said. Source: IHS Markit/Peter Felstead
The present course of defence ties between India and the United States could be jeopardised if New Delhi goes ahead with its planned procurement of Almaz-Antei S-400 Triumf self-propelled surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems from Russia, a US Department of State official has said.

In comments to Jane’s on 3 June, the official made reference to the strong defence ties that have developed between the US and India but also to the potential for these expanding relations to be affected by New Delhi’s proposed S-400 acquisition and US legislation, the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which proposes penalties on Russian defence customers.

The US official said, “US-India defence ties have seen remarkable growth over the past decade‎. A major new purchase like [the] S-400 puts this positive trajectory at risk and may result in action under the Countering American Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

“For that reason, we urge all of our allies and partners to forgo transactions with Russia that could potentially trigger sanctions. We cannot prejudge whether or not any specific transaction would result in sanctions prior to the Secretary of State's determination.‎ At this time, the Secretary has not made any determination regarding the significance under of any Indian transaction,” the official added.

Since being signed into law in August 2017, CAATSA has been modified by a clause introduced through the US National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) 2019 that allows for a possible CAATSA waiver under certain conditions. However, the US Department of State official said that the waiver clause comes with no assurances.

“We have made it clear that no country should count on a waiver,” said the official. “CAATSA does not have any blanket or country-specific waiver provision. There are strict criteria for considering a waiver, and each transaction is evaluated on a case-by-case basis.”

https://www.janes.com/article/89008/us-delivers-caatsa-warning-to-india

BS...............:bs:
30charachters ki ma ka.....

 

[IndianHawk]

https://defence-blog.com/news/u-s-s...on-sale-of-f-16-fighter-jets-to-bulgaria.html

Bulgaria is buying 8 f16 block 70-72 for 1.6 Billion. Deal includes weapons , spare part and logistics support.

That translate to 200 million per plane.for an f16!

Whoever is thinking that gripen or f16 will be cheap is an idiot.
Gripen E is probably more costly than this.

Suddenly rafale at 240 million makes sense over f16 or gripen.

Only lca is cheap for india. People crying about 63 million cost of mk1a need to wake up and smell the military inflation. Even if lca mk1a cost 150 million per plane with weapons spare part and logistics support its still very cheap.

Mk1a with elta 2052 and derby ER / Astra mk2 will go toe to toe with f16 block 70 and will be far superior to Pakistani f16 block 52.

Just buy more rafale and order more lca mk1a and then focus on mwf and amca . With these kinda prices for foreign aircraft we will either have to live with a small airforce or go bankrupt for foreign fighters.

Indegeniosation is our only hope .

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[jackprince]

That is what I originally said. This light medium heavy distinction doesn't fly in era of multirole combat aircraft. That is why saying that rafale replace mig27 is pointless.

We need to look the birds with capabilities angle and not numbers. For example mig 27 was just a ground attack aircraft while rafale is multirole yet rafale could carry twice the payload of mig27 with more precision and more survivability.

So 36 rafale can destroy as much as 72 mig27 and can also be more effective in air than 50-60 mig21 as each rafale can carry more longer range bvr and has large range compare to mig21.

Same goes to su30mki and now even mig29 is multirole with upgrade.

42 sq number is a legacy of single purpose cheap fighter era. We will be much better off with 30 sq of rafale + su30mki + lca/mwf compared to 42 sq of mig21 / mig27/ mig29 and jaguar.

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India uses Mig-21s primarily for CAP roles. Single engine fighters always have less turn around time, less fuel consumption and less expensive to maintain which makes it ideal for petroling duty. Mig-21 has an added extra for its speed and very low RCS. I guess LCA somewhat projected to be as capable in this grounds and even more efficient for its advanced avionics, sensors and weapons.

 

[garg_bharat]

Mig35 provides no advantage over mwf. Whatever we order will only start coming after 3-4 years anyway and mwf will be ready by 2027. So whatever comes need to be more capable than mwf.

Mig 35 despite being bigger airframe carries just the same payload as mwf. And mwf will probably outrange it as single fuel efficient f414 witha3300kg fuel is more economical than 2 hungry rd33 with 5000kg internal fuel.

In fact mig 35 will be at disadvantages because it will depend on Russian aesa and Russian air to air weaponry. While mwf will have Indian/ Israeli aesa and Indian / Israeli and French European weapons.

With Uttam ready mwf will have no problems getting meteor or anyway sfdr should be near induction by then .

Mwf airframe will also be much more Stealthy than mig35 with much more composite and y shape duct.

Mwf is mini rafale in making giving 80% of rafale capabilities. Only thing mig35 will be better at is manueverability and higher speed at the cost of everything else not to mention maintenance problem , poor engine life and incompetent Russian support.

Only rafale and eurofighter are better than mwf.


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Boss Mig 35 is real while MWF is a paper sketch. Any comparison is meaningless.

Mig-35/29 can be bought off the shelf from factory as excess inventory is available. No such thing for MWF.

LCA itself needs a move of assembly line to private players if this program has to shine.

 

[IndianHawk]

Boss Mig 35 is real while MWF is a paper sketch. Any comparison is meaningless.

Mig-35/29 can be bought off the shelf from factory as excess inventory is available. No such thing for MWF.

LCA itself needs a move of assembly line to private players if this program has to shine.

Nope. We can only sign deal via proper procedure first mig35 will have to win tender then the deal to procure will be signed after price negotiation. Let's say we rap it up by 2022. ( And I'm being optimistic here.) Then it takes about 3 yrs to deliver first aircraft from order date . That is industry standard. So first mig35 will touch down in India only by 2025 .

And mwf will have prototype ready by 2020 and IOC by 2026 and foc by 2027-28. So mwf will be here while we will be importing mig35.

Mwf is a reality. Lca mk2 has been in works since at least 2012. Lca mk1a is a compromise airforce already wanted mk2 only debate was about actual size expansion. It is decided now and mwf will come .

F414 are already in India to be mated with prototype of nlca mk2 and mwf. Uttam is testing on lsp. Elta 2052 is already ordered with ew suite for mk1a same can be ready for mwf.

All building block are already in place. Extensive studies are done. Mwf is very robust program. They have learned from past mistake of going for everything new , now they are preparing components first already.

Anyway mig35 can't win tender against rafale heck even gripen would beat it. And iaf already has more than enough Russian birds and associate problems.

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